2 Saturn V Apollo craft - Selene mk1 - mk3

[selfish_meme]

46 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Sweet I shall give it a go! I am not a fan of that (why squad?) yellow stripe..

 To the butt hurt one star troll: Jealousy is a cruel mistress.

 

[GoldForest]

@Majorjim I have a challenge for you. Create a Saturn-Nova out of stock parts.

https://mix.msfc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/HIGH/9902050.jpg

http://www.geocities.jp/silver_zerozero_two/spaceup/supernova01.jpg

This Saturn V is beautiful, and I would love to see what you can do with this beast ^.

Edited March 9, 2016 by GoldForest

[ag3nt108]

Beautiful craft, Thank you for sharing

[John FX]

Very nice. One of the best I have seen.

 

Couple of questions and a couple of observations,

Do you cut the centre engine on stages 1 & 2 when fuel gets to 25% to reduce G-force on the astronauts?

What is the TWR of your lander? original was 2 (on the moon) which made landing... interesting

 

Stage 1 had 8 retro rockets

I`m pretty sure the aft interstage skirt was not dropped from the S-IV B but stayed with stage 2
 

Spoiler

 

Aft Interstage Assembly

The aft interstage is a cylindrical structure fabricated of stringer-stiffened aluminum skin panels. The aft interstage supports the S-IVB stage and provides a structural interface with the S-IB first stage. Vehicle design is such that the aft interstage remains with the S-IB stage when the two stages are separated in flight. Four solid propellant retrorocket motors are located equidistant around the base of this structure to brake the S-IB stage during separation.

 

the S-IV B had a couple of ullage engines for the TLI burn

the capsule escape system had a shroud that covered the entire capsule

 

You may find this document interesting

http://www.apollosaturn.com/sibnews/sec5.htm

 

and this image

Spoiler

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by John FX

[Majorjim!]

4 hours ago, John FX said:

Very nice. One of the best I have seen.

 

Couple of questions and a couple of observations,

Do you cut the centre engine on stages 1 & 2 when fuel gets to 25% to reduce G-force on the astronauts?

What is the TWR of your lander? original was 2 (on the moon) which made landing... interesting

 

Stage 1 had 8 retro rockets

I`m pretty sure the aft interstage skirt was not dropped from the S-IV B but stayed with stage 2
 

the capsule escape system had a shroud that covered the entire capsule

 

You may find this document interesting

http://www.apollosaturn.com/sibnews/sec5.htm

 

and this image

 

Thanks man, I really appreciate the kind comments. As I stated in the wall of text, on the larger SV the center engine cuts off early to prevent the fairings glowing red during ascent which is cool as it has a purpose! No center engine cut off on the second stage

The TWR of the lander I am unsure of, it is not high I know that much! I will check with KER and report back on that mate.

And yeah the first stage had 8 retros in pairs at the base on each engine fairing. I forget the exact number of seperatrons i used, It could have been more than 8 but it will have been the right amount to separate the heavy first stage correctly, see vid. They are in the correct place though.

 I am certain the first/second stage skirt released as in the video you can hear the actual recordings of Niel Armstrong and Ground control confirming the separation of the skirt. Also there are those classic recordings of the skirt sep, I recreated the camera position in the video.

Yup, also aware of the CSM cover that came off with the LES. I have heard one astronaut say, you gave me a window to look out of. I have done this on an Orion craft I made for the re-build of my constellation pack but decided to leave it off this. Don't ask why, I am a bit strange.

Thanks again man I hope that covers your points satisfactorily. If you have any other questions let me know!

MJ

7 hours ago, GoldForest said:

@Majorjim I have a challenge for you. Create a Saturn-Nova out of stock parts.

https://mix.msfc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/HIGH/9902050.jpg

http://www.geocities.jp/silver_zerozero_two/spaceup/supernova01.jpg

This Saturn V is beautiful, and I would love to see what you can do with this beast ^.

I am very tempted to try that! I have recently returned to full time work so may not have time given the plethora of half finished projects I have already..

 And thank you!

[John FX]

Ah, it was not easy to see the separate retros on stage 1.

IIRC they were pretty much forced to adopt the landing trajectory they did for the lunar landing as they simply could not stop if they did not.

Very pretty (and correctly sized) lander though.

Sorry if I wasn`t clear, Of course it is an apollo classic where the camera watches the 1-2 skirt fall away. I saw on your video though the skirt between 2-3 stayed attached to the S-IVb and also fell away (1:54 in video) after separation. For more realism it should stay attached to stage 2 and stage 2 should have 4 retro on the skirt to push it away from the S-IVb which should have 2 of it`s own for ullage.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by John FX

[sventhegreat2]

How is everyone so good at this game?

[Majorjim!]

Just now, John FX said:

Ah, it was not easy to see the separate retros on stage 1.

Sorry if I wasn`t clear, Of course it is an apollo classic where the camera watches the 1-2 skirt fall away. I saw on your video though the skirt between 2-3 stayed attached to the S-IVb and also fell away (1:54 in video) after separation. For more realism it should stay attached to stage 2 and stage 2 should have 4 retro on the skirt to push it away from the S-IVb which should have 2 of it`s own for ullage.

Yup, agreed I forgot the Ullage motors on the third stage.. In the vid you can see the second stage has ullage motors attached to the 1-2 interstage skirt.

 I have read that the third stage has ullage motors on the 2-3 stage skirt though which would suggest that the skirt either stayed with the third stage or was released. I don't think it stayed with the second stage. If you can convince me otherwise I would be happy to change it. Having it not release would be much easier to make!

 

[John FX]

11 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Yup, agreed I forgot the Ullage motors on the third stage.. In the vid you can see the second stage has ullage motors attached to the 1-2 interstage skirt.

 I have read that the third stage has ullage motors on the 2-3 stage skirt though which would suggest that the skirt either stayed with the third stage or was released. I don't think it stayed with the second stage. If you can convince me otherwise I would be happy to change it. Having it not release would be much easier to make!

 

I think confusion may be because there are 3 sections to the interstage between stage 2 and the S-IVb. There is the

Aft Interstage Assembly

The aft interstage is a cylindrical structure fabricated of stringer-stiffened aluminum skin panels. The aft interstage supports the S-IVB stage and provides a structural interface with the S-IB first stage. Vehicle design is such that the aft interstage remains with the S-IB stage when the two stages are separated in flight. Four solid propellant retrorocket motors are located equidistant around the base of this structure to brake the S-IB stage during separation. (the bit that stays on the second stage, which is confusingly called stage 1 a lot of the time)

and the bit that stays with the stage as it goes on to orbit is the

Aft Skirt Assembly

The aft skirt is a cylindrical structure fabricated of aluminum, stringer-stiffened, skin panels and provides structural interface between the aft interstage and propellant tank assembly. After first stage burnout, the S-IB/S-IVB separation plane forms a part of the aft skirt structure. Two auxiliary propulsion system engine modules, three ullage rocket modules, and the aft umbilical connector plate are located on the aft skirt assembly. (the black section at the bottom of the S-IV-b in the middle picture)

and the

Thrust Structure Assembly

The thrust structure is a truncated, cone-shaped structure fabricated of aluminum skin and stringers. It is bolted to the aft dome of the propellant tank assembly to provide an attach point for the J-2 engine. The thrust structure distributes J-2 engine thrust over the entire tank circumference. In addition, hydraulic system components, propellant feed lines, pneumatic components, and miscellaneous components which support engine operation are mounted on the thrust structure assembly. (the cone bit at the bottom of the S-IV-b in the middle picture)

They say a picture is worth a thousand words so...

Edited March 9, 2016 by John FX

[Majorjim!]

Just now, John FX said:

I think confusion may be because there are 3 sections to the interstage between stage 2 and the S-IVb. There is the

Aft Interstage Assembly

The aft interstage is a cylindrical structure fabricated of stringer-stiffened aluminum skin panels. The aft interstage supports the S-IVB stage and provides a structural interface with the S-IB first stage. Vehicle design is such that the aft interstage remains with the S-IB stage when the two stages are separated in flight. Four solid propellant retrorocket motors are located equidistant around the base of this structure to brake the S-IB stage during separation. (the bit that stays on the second stage, which is confusingly called stage 1 a lot of the time)

and the bit that stays with the stage as it goes on to orbit is the

Aft Skirt Assembly

The aft skirt is a cylindrical structure fabricated of aluminum, stringer-stiffened, skin panels and provides structural interface between the aft interstage and propellant tank assembly. After first stage burnout, the S-IB/S-IVB separation plane forms a part of the aft skirt structure. Two auxiliary propulsion system engine modules, three ullage rocket modules, and the aft umbilical connector plate are located on the aft skirt assembly. (the black section at the bottom of the S-IV-b in the middle picture)

and the

Thrust Structure Assembly

The thrust structure is a truncated, cone-shaped structure fabricated of aluminum skin and stringers. It is bolted to the aft dome of the propellant tank assembly to provide an attach point for the J-2 engine. The thrust structure distributes J-2 engine thrust over the entire tank circumference. In addition, hydraulic system components, propellant feed lines, pneumatic components, and miscellaneous components which support engine operation are mounted on the thrust structure assembly. (the cone bit at the bottom of the S-IV-b in the middle picture)

They say a picture is worth a thousand words so...

 

 

 

Sorry I am not convinced yet. This is the issue. There were many different versions of the Saturn V. The pics you shown above are from the earlier non J-class missions. The non separating payload farings are the give away (the J-class missions had these separate completely). Also you just copied and pasted text from a site. I read those exact words before.

 I know there are two 'types' of interstage fairing on the 2-3 stage I am just unsure, and unable to find concrete evidence for either that it stays with the second or third stage or is released. As it makes no difference in KSP I went for the harder choice. If I can find evidence that the J-class SV 2-3 stage skirt stayed with the 2 or 3 stage I am very happy to change it as it would save me a part.

[John FX]

12 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Sorry I am not convinced yet. This is the issue. There were many different versions of the Saturn V. The pics you shown above are from the earlier non J-class missions. The non separating payload farings are the give away (the J-class missions had these separate completely). Also you just copied and pasted text from a site. I read those exact words before.

 I know there are two 'types' of interstage fairing on the 2-3 stage I am just unsure, and unable to find concrete evidence for either that it stays with the second or third stage or is released. As it makes no difference in KSP I went for the harder choice. If I can find evidence that the J-class SV 2-3 stage skirt stayed with the 2 or 3 stage I am very happy to change it as it would save me a part.

OK, what evidence would suffice?

Could you post where you saw that it stays on? I`d be really interested to see that as it would be a relatively major design change.

Edited March 9, 2016 by John FX

[Hysterrics]

Nice job on this one, @Majorjim!

[Majorjim!]

Just now, John FX said:

OK, what evidence would suffice?

Could you post where you saw that it stays on? I`d be really interested to see that as it would be a relatively major design change.

I don't mean to be pedantic I just couldn't see reference to what stage it stays with. I am leaning towards not releasing but have seen reference to both staying on the second and third stage..

 And by 'stay on' do you mean the 2-3 interstage?

Just now, Sequinox said:

Nice job on this one, @Majorjim!

Thanks Sequinox!

Edited March 9, 2016 by Majorjim

[John FX]

Just now, Majorjim said:

I don't mean to be pedantic I just couldn't see reference to what stage it stays with. I am leaning towards not releasing but have seen reference to both staying on the second and third stage..

 And by 'stay on' do you mean the 2-3 interstage?

Everything I have read says the S-IVb aft interstage fairing stays on the spent stage and it has retrorockets to pull that stage away from the S-IVb

This image from NASA shows the separation plane although it is confusing as it only shows the S-IVb although it does show the 4 retro motors attached to it which moved the spent stage away. It also shows the auxilliary propulsion system on the upper stage along with the ullage motors.

This is from an interesting document

Many aspects of the S-IV design were transferred directly to the S-IVB, even though it mounted only one engine, instead of a cluster of six.

And in this PDF

http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/saturn_apollo/documents/Third_Stage.pdf

it says "The aft interstage is a truncated cone-shaped structure fabricated of aluminium skin and stringers. It attaches to the third stage aft skirt and provides the structural interface to the second stage. It also houses the second stage retrorockets."

which to me suggests it stays on the second stage to help move it away from the S-IVb

[Majorjim!]

Just now, John FX said:

Everything I have read says the S-IVb aft interstage fairing stays on the spent stage and it has retrorockets to pull that stage away from the S-IVb

This image from NASA shows the separation plane although it is confusing as it only shows the S-IVb although it does show the 4 retro motors attached to it which moved the spent stage away. It also shows the auxilliary propulsion system on the upper stage along with the ullage motors.

This is from an interesting document

Many aspects of the S-IV design were transferred directly to the S-IVB, even though it mounted only one engine, instead of a cluster of six.

And in this PDF

http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/saturn_apollo/documents/Third_Stage.pdf

it says "The aft interstage is a truncated cone-shaped structure fabricated of aluminium skin and stringers. It attaches to the third stage aft skirt and provides the structural interface to the second stage. It also houses the second stage retrorockets."

which to me suggests it stays on the second stage to help move it away from the S-IVb

Right, ok thank you for the correction! I will make the changes to it this weekend. I think not only (now I know) will it be more realistic but will look cooler too. Thanks mate. Learning is fun.

[John FX]

21 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Right, ok thank you for the correction! I will make the changes to it this weekend. I think not only (now I know) will it be more realistic but will look cooler too. Thanks mate. Learning is fun.

I remember going full nerd on my replica which has left me knowing more about saturn/apollo than I thought I ever would...

I designed everything around the engines and their relative power although the lander was designed around the rover because I liked the bigger wheels

Now I have started playing RO I guess I`ll have to do it all again, this time I won`t have to nerf it because the world is too small hehe.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, John FX said:

I remember going full nerd on my replica which has left me knowing more about saturn/apollo than I thought I ever would...

I designed everything around the engines and their relative power although the lander was designed around the rover because I liked the bigger wheels

Now I have started playing RO I guess I`ll have to do it all again, this time I won`t have to nerf it because the world is too small hehe.

I remember that bad boy! A RO version would be awesome man.

[John FX]

2 hours ago, Majorjim said:

I remember that bad boy! A RO version would be awesome man.

I remember it even had a little orange light and battery inside the fairing ring that dropped so it would look hot. I really like the way your lander is put together like the real one with a cross in the middle and the a.l.s.e.p and rover are in the triangles inbetween. I think I will be redesigning my lander now (it needed to be done anyway as some engines have changed)

Just as soon as I do a flyby of the moon in RO, then maybe an orbit...

[John FX]

Found a nice timeline made by someone who wanted to simulate Apollo 11 to check the numbers to see if they were valid.

http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/saturnV.htm

Includes relative strength of ullage, retro, timings of various parts of the launch etc.

thought you might find it useful

[Majorjim!]

Just now, John FX said:

Found a nice timeline made by someone who wanted to simulate Apollo 11 to check the numbers to see if they were valid.

http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/saturnV.htm

Includes relative strength of ullage, retro, timings of various parts of the launch etc.

thought you might find it useful

Thanks mate. Aside from the second/third stage fairing adjustment I won't be making any more changes to this though. It is as I intended it to be.

[awfulhumanbeing]

Holy @&₽%! How did you do these awesome fairings? How did you do everything!? Liked, great job!

[Majorjim!]

Just now, awfulhumanbeing said:

Holy @&₽%! How did you do these awesome fairings? How did you do everything!? Liked, great job!

He he. thanks man. I play a lot of KSP, over 2000 hours.. I would say that 90% of that was playing around in the VAB. That's a hell of a lot of practice!

 Ive been building custom fairings for many years now. There are a lot of tutorials around for them, pull it apart and the secrets shall be revealed.

 I spend a huge amount of time making tiny adjustments to my craft to make sure everything is lined up perfectly, that is why there are such gaps between my big builds. Most of the time is fiddling and perfecting a fully assembled craft.

I should add I have not tested these in the latest versions of KSP. After my current build I will go back and test some of my bigger builds like this and the Duna Direct pack to certify them for the current release. Then again after the next patch. Then again. And again. and again.... .... ....

[Majorjim!]

A friendly fellow has informed my that this craft was broken by some of the latest updates possibly.

 When I have time I will open it and see what's what. 

[Matuchkin]

How about the arm, on the LEM, that carried the camera that filmed Neil Armstrong's first steps on the Moon?

[Majorjim!]

8 hours ago, Matuchkin said:

How about the arm, on the LEM, that carried the camera that filmed Neil Armstrong's first steps on the Moon?

Errr, I didn't know of it dude. Even if I had I probably would not have added it though.

 On a brighter note the falling apart in newer version was a false alarm.

 I will still do some tests on it to confirm all is well in these highly changed updates though. Thanks all!