Space Construction

[wolverine79936]

Alright. I've already scoured the forums and web as best I know to try and find some decent information in regards to this topic, and alas, I have failed in my search, quite miserably. What I want to do is to actually be able to build a ship in space... One that does not have the rubber band effect whenever you fire up the engines... Is there any way to weld in space or anything to that degree?

 

Are there any mods pertaining to this topic that might fit what I am inquiring about already? Or anything that might make constructing in space easier?

 

Also, again, in regards to construction, I don't like using airlocks to attach new ship parts, but regardless of my preference, which is an easier method of docking...? MechJeb auto docking system or manually docking? I've never tried docking. To paranoid and too twitchy, hope the twitchy part makes sense.

 

OH! I forgot... Whenever I try to launch anything large, like a whole section of a space station, my rocket goes up about 100 meters and then just starts spinning out of control. Just wondering if I am doing something wrong there?

 

Thanks in advance for any help y'all might be able to offer me.

Edited March 13, 2016 by wolverine79936

[Snark]

5 minutes ago, wolverine79936 said:

Alright. I've already scoured the forums and web as best I know to try and find some decent information in regards to this topic, and alas, I have failed in my search, quite miserably. What I want to do is to actually be able to build a ship in space... One that does not have the rubber band effect whenever you fire up the engines... Is there any way to weld in space or anything to that degree?

Are there any mods pertaining to this topic that might fit what I am inquiring about already? Or anything that might make constructing in space easier?

Absolutely! 

The following mods are amazingly cool:

They do slightly different things, depending on what it is that you want to accomplish.

Kerbal Attachment System (usually referred to as KAS) has some handy parts that let you make your docked-together ships not so noodly and floppy.  In particular, a very handy little part that I really wish was in stock, basically a "strut socket".  It's a small, light, radially attachable part that you can put on your craft.  An EVA kerbal can right-click on two strut sockets during a mission and set up a strut connection between them.  So if you want to construct your big ship by docking together multiple components, just reinforce it with these struts after docking, and it'll be nice and rigid-- no floppy noodle ships.

Kerbal Inventory System (usually referred to as KIS) lets your EVA kerbal engineers disassemble and reassemble ships.  They can take rocket parts and bolt them onto rockets, or dismount them from rockets.  So if you need to reconfigure an existing ship, this is your best bet.

Extraplanetary Launchpads lets you build entire ships outside of KSC.  You mine MetalOre resource, then use a smelter to refine that to Metal, then use a workshop to turn that into RocketParts, then use a launchpad part to build an actual ship.  (You design the ship in the VAB or SPH, as usual.  When you want to build it at your mobile launchpad, a dialog pops up that lets you pick which VAB/SPH design you want to construct.)

So yes... a plethora of options. 

 

13 minutes ago, wolverine79936 said:

Also, again, in regards to construction, I don't like using airlocks to attach new ship parts, but regardless of my preference, which is an easier method of docking...? MechJeb auto docking system or manually docking? I've never tried docking. To paranoid and too twitchy, hope the twitchy part makes sense.

MechJeb will do docking for you.  However, I strongly advise trying it yourself, first.  It can be an incredibly fun challenge.  For me it's one of the best parts of KSP, I love docking, there's nothing quite like that sense of satisfaction when the docking clamps engage.

It's not that hard, you just have to practice it a bit, like any other KSP skill.  There are plenty of good tutorials out there, if you're finding it difficult.

 

14 minutes ago, wolverine79936 said:

OH! I forgot... Whenever I try to launch anything large, like a whole section of a space station, my rocket goes up about 100 meters and then just starts spinning out of control. Just wondering if I am doing something wrong there?

Yes, you are.    Fear not, though, you're in good company; practically every KSP newbie runs into this.  Almost certainly what your problem is that you're launching something that is aerodynamically unstable.

As to what you're doing wrong:  there are many, many things that you could be doing wrong, but it's impossible to say which ones you are doing wrong without seeing the ship.  This is a complex topic in its own right.  My suggestion:  open a separate thread for it, with a title like "why does this ship keep flipping?" and be sure to include a screenshot of the troublesome craft.

The short answer for "how not to do this":

• Pointy and streamlined in front
• Fins on the back
• CoM (center of mass) as far forward as possible
• Beware of vertically stacked fuel tanks, which drain from the top down and cause your CoM to move downwards in flight, which is a Bad Thing

 

[seaces]

Hi!
There are two mods that go hand in hand search for KIS and KAS. Those will allow you to build in EVA and many other things. Now to build entire ship using this method will take some time, nerves and not to mention all those parts you need to send up in space in inventories. But as I have said it has some use. For example I have added extra fuel tanks on my mun lander in orbit around mun. Just sent there parts and engenieer and did the upgrade. If I had not have these two mods I would be forced to create new better lander and send in space, then I have upgraded 4 satelites aroudn Kerbin with better antenna.

Regarding your airlocks (do you mean docking ports?) question. I do not know if there is some mod that can provide you with another method of attaching sections of the ships. They will tend to move around and wobble if you move ship like that however if you install mods mentioned above you get struts that you can use in EVA and strut those parts.

Method of docking?
I do it manually it is not hard at all so I do not know how MJ works. If you google it you can find plenty of writen instruction and some YT tutorials on how to dock and once you do it 2-3 times you will feel comfortable enough with it. It is not hard at all and I would suggest that you learn it it is rewarding, cool and you will learn alot by the way so even if you plan to use a MJ I would stil say to try and learn this.

About losing control over the rocket you could post picture of it?

Hhaha just as I have pressed "post" @Snark your answer apeared.....

Edited March 13, 2016 by seaces

[Vive_moi]

1 hour ago, seaces said:

 not to mention all those parts you need to send up in space in inventories.

Hi,

With KAS KIS, you can make what you want, including assemble big parts not from containers.

I have included a MPL right in the middle of my new space station in LKO. Just because, I did not want to lift a 3.5tons MPL from Kerbin while a rescue mission let me one in LKO. It was a long thing and quite nervously demanding due to some bugs and missed try. You need 4 kerbals (but only one engineer is enough) within 3 meters from the MPL to handle it with KAS.

Due this success, my Mun space station is on the way to Mun to meet the MPL from another rescue mission.

KIS and KAS are some of my preferred mod. I've got lot of fun with repairing, replacing,... The only thing they cannot do is create parts.

 

See you,

 

Vive_moi

[wolverine79936]

Well, I thank everyone for their input in regards to my questions.  Unfortunately, I do not have access to my desktop at the moment and as such can neither install the aforementioned mods nor can I test them. I should be able to try all of this out a little later tonight, though. So again, thank you very much for your input.

[GoSlash27]

FWIW, I do all my orbital assembly stock. The 2 most important things are the large docking ports and RCS tugs.

The RCS tugs have a standard docking port on one end and a large docking port on the other. This allows me to use them like "hands", grabbing sections of ships or stations and assembling them in place.

I deliver kerbals, fuel, and RCS propellant using SSTO spaceplanes. Sections of ships/ stations are delivered using boosters.

Best,
-Slashy

[wolverine79936]

New question about space stations... I want to do one of those giant loop space stations that you tend to see on the older sci fi movies where they rotate the whole thing to generate gravity. My only problem is that I can't figure out how to connect the two ends of the loop together... I'm sure this is a little advanced, but I have been playing since version 0.23 and just haven't managed to figure out a whole lot on my own. I just recently made a soft landing on the moon. It was on a slant and the ship leaned and blew up, but I landed finally a few months ago.

[Nich]

First off learn to dock.  It is like riding a bike.  Your going to fall and scrape your knee.  It is going to take a while and a lot of practice and there will be a lot of failures.  Be sure to F5 F9 as necessary.  Once it clicks it will come like second nature.

Then learn to dock without RCS this is like riding a unicycle.  This again will be hard but it will click eventually and then you can tell all your friends hey look at me NO HANDS

 

Ring stations can be closed with struts (external or clipped inside) or via docking ports that are very close but not connected.  I like to launch them with all the struts starting on items that get discarded when the station is in final resting position.

The ocar b tanks are connected to jr docking ports and get shot into space to remove the struts and make it look better.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, wolverine79936 said:

My only problem is that I can't figure out how to connect the two ends of the loop together...

Yup, as Nich points out, this isn't possible in KSP, at least not in the usual sense of actually attaching them the way you usually attach ports.  You have to use some sort of trick, either docking ports or struts.

[Wemb]

16 hours ago, Snark said:

MechJeb will do docking for you.  However, I strongly advise trying it yourself, first.  It can be an incredibly fun challenge.  For me it's one of the best parts of KSP, I love docking, there's nothing quite like that sense of satisfaction when the docking clamps engage.

It's not that hard, you just have to practice it a bit, like any other KSP skill.  There are plenty of good tutorials out there, if you're finding it difficult.

What Snark said. - I would suggest that you might use MJ for the rendezvous - I do this because it saves all that fiddly mucking about with the nodes that I find neither challenging or fun - but only once you know how to do it.  Docking is fun though, and one of the more satisfying achievements in the game - you don't really need a mod for docking - all the information needed will be on the Navball, but the Docking Port Alignment Indicator mod is very useful tool making the information clearer and easier to use.

If you want a challenge with docking, install RasterPropMonitor, go IVA, turn of the games UI with F2 and dock entirely from the capsule using just the MFD displays - that's really fun.

Wemb

[Geschosskopf]

17 hours ago, wolverine79936 said:

Alright. I've already scoured the forums and web as best I know to try and find some decent information in regards to this topic, and alas, I have failed in my search, quite miserably. What I want to do is to actually be able to build a ship in space... One that does not have the rubber band effect whenever you fire up the engines... Is there any way to weld in space or anything to that degree?

Welding, no.  However, it's not difficult to design ships to minimize or even eliminate wobbles while under thrust.  There are a number of tricks you can do here:

1. Design and fly the ship such that docking ports are only subjected to compressive axial loads when under thrust.
2. Disable engine gimbal, which necessarily imposes severe off-axis loads.
3. Only use 2.5m docking ports for the main structural joints of any thing bigger than an Apollo CSM/LM.  Big ships can dock to stations and such with smaller ports, but that's just for parking.  Ports that will be joined when the ship is under thrust need to be 2.5m.
4. Design the ship such that the modules closer to the ends of the ship (on the far side of docking ports) are not unreasonably wide, long, or massive.  In general, a single port should connect modules of its own diameter or slightly wider.  IOW, don't use a 2.5m port to connect modules composed multiple, long, radially attached 2.5m stacks.
5. Use Kerbal Joint Reinforcement
6. Use KAS struts to cross-stitch joints that violate rule #4.

By following these general guidelines, you should have no trouble with wobbles while under thrust, and probably no problems during rotations.  It's not magic.  Those who complain of wobbly rockets violate some or all of the above rules.

17 hours ago, wolverine79936 said:

Are there any mods pertaining to this topic that might fit what I am inquiring about already? Or anything that might make constructing in space easier?

Yes.  I'm naming them as I go in the various sections.

17 hours ago, wolverine79936 said:

Also, again, in regards to construction, I don't like using airlocks to attach new ship parts, but regardless of my preference, which is an easier method of docking...? MechJeb auto docking system or manually docking? I've never tried docking. To paranoid and too twitchy, hope the twitchy part makes sense.

If you make proper preparations, docking is easy.   The main thing to do is make sure you have balanced RCS thrusters.  For this, RCS Build Aid is indispensable.  If you don't have balanced translational thrust, then docking will be a nightmare whether you use MJ or do it manually, as both rely on the same controls.  That's because imbalanced thrust will cause rotations while you're translating, which throws your aim off badly.

Having built a ship with balanced RCS, the only remaining hurdle is lining it up on the axis of the target docking port.  Used to be, MJ would do that for you but lately it's been having trouble with that, so you pretty much have to do this yourself now.  This can be done with just the stock navball, once you learn how to interpret it, but IMHO that's unnecessarily hard.  So I heartily recommend @NavyFish's superb Docking Port Alignment Indicator.  This is an elegantly simple display of mere lines and icons that brilliantly makes lining up on the dock axis a breeze, PROVIDED you have balanced RCS thrust.  But this display is so helpful that even if your thrust isn't quite balanced, it's still a lot easier to get lined up.  Once properly aligned, it's then no problem at all to just drive forward slowly and dock.  You can do this yourself or let MJ finish the job for you.

17 hours ago, wolverine79936 said:

OH! I forgot... Whenever I try to launch anything large, like a whole section of a space station, my rocket goes up about 100 meters and then just starts spinning out of control. Just wondering if I am doing something wrong there?

As others have said, this is an issue with aerodynamic balance.  Make your rockets like arrows, heavy at the front, draggy at the back.  Making rockets long and skinny versus short and wide helps a lot with this.  Use fairings as necessary and add tailfeathers until the CoL is as close to the rocket nozzles as you can get it.

[Wemb]

15 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Welding, no.  However, it's not difficult to design ships to minimize or even eliminate wobbles while under thrust.  There are a number of tricks you can do here:

1. Design and fly the ship such that docking ports are only subjected to compressive axial loads when under thrust.
2. Disable engine gimbal, which necessarily imposes severe off-axis loads.
3. Only use 2.5m docking ports for the main structural joints of any thing bigger than an Apollo CSM/LM.  Big ships can dock to stations and such with smaller ports, but that's just for parking.  Ports that will be joined when the ship is under thrust need to be 2.5m.
4. Design the ship such that the modules closer to the ends of the ship (on the far side of docking ports) are not unreasonably wide, long, or massive.  In general, a single port should connect modules of its own diameter or slightly wider.  IOW, don't use a 2.5m port to connect modules composed multiple, long, radially attached 2.5m stacks.
5. Use Kerbal Joint Reinforcement
6. Use KAS struts to cross-stitch joints that violate rule #4.

Also

7) Pull your spacecraft, rather than push it.

Wemb

[Geschosskopf]

21 minutes ago, Wemb said:

Also

7) Pull your spacecraft, rather than push it.

Wemb

Sure, that works, but I don't like doing it, for 2 reasons.

First and foremost, this is a total exploit.  KSP only models heat transfer from direct flame impingement, not the radiant heat shining out from engine flames.  It's thus possible to put radial tractor engines minimally spaced away from the central stack and no problem.  But in reality, all the parts illuminated by the flames streaming down the sides of the ship would get really hot really fast.  Anybody who has tried to stand close to a roaring bonfire, or has seen the ignition of a house 100 feet away upwind from another that's burning, has experienced the power of radiant heat from flames.  Not having this is a major omission in KSP's heat model.

Second, while it can be argued that "it's not an exploit/cheat if it works around a bug", that doesn't apply here.  Wobbly docking ports are only an issue for those who violate good engineering practices by overloading and cross-loading the things.  Docking ports are just like any other part; they have their limitations.  Stay within those limitations and they cause no trouble.  Exceed them and the rocket fails.  That's as true for every part in the game as it is for docking ports.  Thus, using the tractor layout to avoid wobbles is merely plastering over the underlying problem of  poor ship design.  Fix that problem and the apparent need for tractor engines goes away.

[Wanderfound]

On 3/13/2016 at 5:54 AM, wolverine79936 said:

Alright. I've already scoured the forums and web as best I know to try and find some decent information in regards to this topic, and alas, I have failed in my search, quite miserably. What I want to do is to actually be able to build a ship in space... One that does not have the rubber band effect whenever you fire up the engines... Is there any way to weld in space or anything to that degree?

 

Are there any mods pertaining to this topic that might fit what I am inquiring about already? Or anything that might make constructing in space easier?

To demonstrate:

 

If you're just building a space station, it can be as wobbly as you like (although not if you plan on realigning it regularly). If you're building an interplanetary wagon train, it needs to be rigid. So:

1) Pull, don't push. Or, even better, pull and push, but keep 50%+ of the thrust in the pull section.

2) Keep things in line and in balance. Laterally attached parts should be kept to a minimum, and they need to be symmetrically balanced and firmly mounted.

3) Senior docking ports are your friend. They are vastly more rigid than the standard size ones.

 

On 3/13/2016 at 5:54 AM, wolverine79936 said:

Also, again, in regards to construction, I don't like using airlocks to attach new ship parts, but regardless of my preference, which is an easier method of docking...? MechJeb auto docking system or manually docking? I've never tried docking. To paranoid and too twitchy, hope the twitchy part makes sense.

Mechjeb is horrible at docking; even when it manages to do it, it wastes a huge amount of fuel. You need to learn how to do it manually.

Once you have the knack of it, docking is trivially simple. However, until you get that knack, it will seem almost impossibly complicated. I strongly recommend that you build a pair of small, highly maneuverable docking practice ships, and learn to rendezvous and dock with those instead of trying to fight with a huge ungainly ship. Even big things can be docked easily once you know what you're doing, but it is much much easier to learn on a small and light ship that allows for rapid correction of mistakes.

 

On 3/13/2016 at 5:54 AM, wolverine79936 said:

OH! I forgot... Whenever I try to launch anything large, like a whole section of a space station, my rocket goes up about 100 meters and then just starts spinning out of control. Just wondering if I am doing something wrong there?

The bigger and more unbalanced the ship, the more control authority it requires. Gimbal is your friend; lots and lots of gimbal. Radial engines are a handy way to quickly increase the gimbal authority of a lifter.

You also need to make sure that your lifter is rigid enough that the engines don't overly flex during launch. With particularly ungainly payloads, it can also help to use a slow and steeper ascent trajectory; keep the speed right down until you're well out of the thickest parts of the atmosphere. It's less fuel efficient but safer.

Again, see the album at the top for some heavy-lift demonstrations. Or see this:

 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Wanderfound