Space Race alternate history; What if the USA and USSR did a co op to the Moon?

[Spaceception]

Inspiration came from this video:

 

Around the 13:Five Seven )Those keys aren't working anymore) mark, JFK proposes that the USA and USSR team up to go to the Moon, initially, the leader of USSR Nikita Khrushchev said no, but a couple years later he changed his mind, unfortunately, JFK was assassinated that year, but since the leader of USSR didn't trust the new president, all plans for a collaboration died with JFK.

So my question for you guys is, what do you think would've happened if there was a collaboration, rather than a competition to the Moon? And how could the world look today if it did end up happening?  Do you think the USSR could still be around? And what would relations look like between the two?

 

[worir4]

Man, if only that did happen... I never knew JFK said that about working together. If it had come true surely we would at least be on Mars by now.

Just to let people know the relevant part of the video starts at around 12:13 but the rest of it is good also.

Edited March 17, 2016 by worir4

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, worir4 said:

Man, if only that did happen... I never knew JFK said that about working together. If it had come true surely we would at least be on Mars by now.

Just to let people know the relevant part of the video starts at around 12:13 but the rest of it is good also.

The Space race was about competition. The only reason it went on for so long was due to waningto beat the Soviets, and as JFK was dead (and the moon was his dream).

So no, I actually think the space race would have died a sooner,or the lunar landings would be forced on Gemini as a one-off.

[tater]

It would have slowed things down a lot, honestly. Zond 5 spooked us, for example, so we made Apollo 8 be a circumlunar flight ahead of schedule. The CCCP wasn't anywhere near as far as we were, honestly, and they never had the cash, really. I'm not seeing a huge benefit.

Edited March 18, 2016 by tater

[DerekL1963]

 

47 minutes ago, fredinno said:

The Space race was about competition. The only reason it went on for so long was due to waningto beat the Soviets, and as JFK was dead (and the moon was his dream).

The key element being JFK was dead - and the Apollo Program was his monument.   His plans for collaboration and cooperation grew out of his concerns over the risks and the ever ballooning cost estimates for Apollo, and are often interpreted as potentially being a prelude to withdrawing support.

[kerbiloid]

Then both teams would be endlessly passing the ball to each other and nobody would fly to the Moon yet. No hazard - no drive.

Edited March 18, 2016 by kerbiloid

[sevenperforce]

17 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

The key element being JFK was dead - and the Apollo Program was his monument.   His plans for collaboration and cooperation grew out of his concerns over the risks and the ever ballooning cost estimates for Apollo, and are often interpreted as potentially being a prelude to withdrawing support.

Yeah, if JFK hadn't been assassinated we probably wouldn't have gone to the moon.

[Bill Phil]

20 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

 

The key element being JFK was dead - and the Apollo Program was his monument.   His plans for collaboration and cooperation grew out of his concerns over the risks and the ever ballooning cost estimates for Apollo, and are often interpreted as potentially being a prelude to withdrawing support.

Apollo was conceived before he became president.... In fact, various Saturn designs were presented to Eisenhower...

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

Apollo was conceived before he became president.... In fact, various Saturn designs were presented to Eisenhower...

It was originally inteneded for LEO operations,before the moonshot became Apollo's goal.

[Bill Phil]

45 minutes ago, fredinno said:

It was originally inteneded for LEO operations,before the moonshot became Apollo's goal.

The program existed before Kennedy was president. And they had moon rocket designs already.

[DerekL1963]

2 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

22 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

The key element being JFK was dead - and the Apollo Program was his monument.   His plans for collaboration and cooperation grew out of his concerns over the risks and the ever ballooning cost estimates for Apollo, and are often interpreted as potentially being a prelude to withdrawing support.

Apollo was conceived before he became president.... In fact, various Saturn designs were presented to Eisenhower...

Which is relevant, how exactly?  The Apollo Program, before Kennedy, was a paper program mostly intended as an general purpose Earth orbiter and the vague goal of going to the Moon at some distant date in the future.  The Apollo Program as we understand it today, a program focused on going to the moon "by the end of the decade", is completely a creation of JFK. 

[HoloYolo]

Alright, let's take a step back. Say Kennedy was not shot.  Khrushchev still changed his mind, and was not ousted in '64. The thaw that happened during the late 70's would have happened in '63. My guess is that we would have a Gemini-Soyuz mix that took 2 Americans and 1 Russian to the Moon in '67. The American public sees the Soviets more of frenemies than actual enemies. The American people would realize that the soviets aren't as bad as portrayed in 50's/early 60's propaganda. In 85', a collaborated American-Soviet mission to Mars happens. The US and Soviets become true friends. Of course, there will be people that always despise the other country, but many Americans and Soviets would see each other as friends.

Edited March 19, 2016 by HoloYolo

[DerekL1963]

1 hour ago, HoloYolo said:

Alright, let's take a step back. Say Kennedy was not shot.  Khrushchev still changed his mind. The thaw that happened during the late 70's would have happened in '63. My guess is that we would have a Gemini-Soyuz mix that took 2 Americans and 1 Russian to the Moon in '67.

Presuming Khruschev isn't ousted in '64 as he was in OTL.

[HoloYolo]

1 hour ago, DerekL1963 said:

Presuming Khruschev isn't ousted in '64 as he was in OTL.

I'll fix that.

[fredinno]

3 hours ago, HoloYolo said:

Alright, let's take a step back. Say Kennedy was not shot.  Khrushchev still changed his mind, and was not ousted in '64. The thaw that happened during the late 70's would have happened in '63. My guess is that we would have a Gemini-Soyuz mix that took 2 Americans and 1 Russian to the Moon in '67. The American public sees the Soviets more of frenemies than actual enemies. The American people would realize that the soviets aren't as bad as portrayed in 50's/early 60's propaganda. In 85', a collaborated American-Soviet mission to Mars happens. The US and Soviets become true friends. Of course, there will be people that always despise the other country, but many Americans and Soviets would see each other as friends.

Why would they go to the moon? The first goal was always to build a large space station, so they'd do that firs. And considering how much time the ISS took, that'd go beyond the 80s.

[HoloYolo]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Why would they go to the moon? The first goal was always to build a large space station, so they'd do that firs. And considering how much time the ISS took, that'd go beyond the 80s.

It's more of a "Look Communists and Capitalists did something together". People would see Mars as more of a goal then a station in LKO. I mean, I would. It would show that bitter enemies can be good friends.

[Bill Phil]

5 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

Which is relevant, how exactly?  The Apollo Program, before Kennedy, was a paper program mostly intended as an general purpose Earth orbiter and the vague goal of going to the Moon at some distant date in the future.  The Apollo Program as we understand it today, a program focused on going to the moon "by the end of the decade", is completely a creation of JFK. 

The Apollo program already existed. It changed, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it already existed. Heck, the F-1s were old designs by the time they first flew. They had to be changed, too. Mainly to fix the combustion instability.

It's relevant because it existed. It doesn't matter if it wasn't the one we'd get later, but it actually was. The original Apollo program and the Apollo spacecraft were going to be general purpose LEO and BLEO craft, and, had Block I flown, it would be even closer to that. But, it didn't. That doesn't change the fact that the design flew in LEO almost as much as to the moon. Apollo 7, 9, Skylab 2, 3, 4, and ASTP. Not quite as much as the moon shots, but close.

All JFK did was set a deadline for the lunar missions. But the plans already existed, to an extent.

[DerekL1963]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

7 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

Which is relevant, how exactly?  The Apollo Program, before Kennedy, was a paper program mostly intended as an general purpose Earth orbiter and the vague goal of going to the Moon at some distant date in the future.  The Apollo Program as we understand it today, a program focused on going to the moon "by the end of the decade", is completely a creation of JFK. 

The Apollo program already existed. It changed, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it already existed. Heck, the F-1s were old designs by the time they first flew. They had to be changed, too. Mainly to fix the combustion instability.

Nobody has claimed that the Apollo program didn't already exist, so, how exactly is that relevant?  And the age of the F-1's and the fixes for combustion instability are equally irrelevant.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

It's relevant because it existed. It doesn't matter if it wasn't the one we'd get later, but it actually was.

Since the discussion revolves around the one we did get, the one that never progressed beyond paper is irrelevant.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

All JFK did was set a deadline for the lunar missions. But the plans already existed, to an extent.

Yeah - the one thing that defined the entire program and determined the mission architecture is the one thing JFK did.

[GoSlash27]

On 3/17/2016 at 5:42 PM, fredinno said:

The Space race was about competition. The only reason it went on for so long was due to waningto beat the Soviets, and as JFK was dead (and the moon was his dream).

So no, I actually think the space race would have died a sooner,or the lunar landings would be forced on Gemini as a one-off.

^This. Without the threat of the dreaded "commies" or "capitalists" (take your pick) getting there first, there would've been no political will to achieve such a fundamentally expensive and dangerous goal. The moon was never about exploration or advancing science, it was about fear.

AFA what would've happened if Kennedy and Kruschev had teamed up (and I don't see why they ever would), Funding would've been slashed on both sides and both figures would've been under tremendous political pressure within for having attempted to collaborate with the enemy. NASA would've died with Kennedy.

Best,
-Slashy