What would be a message to send to extraterrestrials?

[KerikBalm]

How did I fail the basic math test?

circumference = pi*diameter.

You specified the diameter as 1. You specified the circumference as 10....

Now you didn't specify the base, I'm assuming you mean base 10, and thats not a 1 0 in binary... but it doesn't matter. Pi is irrational and cannot be expressed as an integer in a number system of any base... I've come to see other things and people are irrational as well...

Your numbers are not even close to right. Not in binary, not in base 3, not in base 4... 10, etc...

Edited March 30, 2016 by KerikBalm

[Elrond Cupboard]

2 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

How did I fail the basic math test?

circumference = pi*diameter.

You specified the diameter as 1. You specified the circumference as 10....

Now you didn't specify the base, I'm assuming you mean base 10, and thats not a 1 0 in binary... but it doesn't matter. Pi is irrational and cannot be expressed as an integer in a number system of any base... I've come to see other things and people are irrational as well...

Your numbers are not even close to right. Not in binary, not in base 3, not in base 4... 10, etc...

They work if your base is Pi.

[Darnok]

13 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Now you didn't specify the base

Because that was the test question.

[Elrond Cupboard]

1 minute ago, Darnok said:

Because that was the test question.

To be fair, the 0.5s don't work in base Pi. 0.5 is only a half in base 10.

[RenegadeRad]

AYY LMAO

[Darnok]

5 minutes ago, Elrond Cupboard said:

To be fair, the 0.5s don't work in base Pi. 0.5 is only a half in base 10.

0.5 is on axis, it is generated by my software.
I used 1 as diameter and 10 as circumference. I noted I would simplify that image, basically to this (except of π symbol would be replaced by 10, and those red arrows are not needed).

Edited March 30, 2016 by Darnok

[KerikBalm]

41 minutes ago, Elrond Cupboard said:

They work if your base is Pi.

No, they don't.

*edit* ok, I see you noted that the 0.5 + 0.5 doesn't work. The rest works if you define 1 as 1, and 10 as 1*pi but then you convey no useful infromation. The scheme is internally inconsistent*edit*

Pi is a ratio.

Ratios are independent of the base system. You can express 3:1 as 3:1 in decimal, or 10:1 in binary, but you will never be able to express pi, no matter the *integer* base, because its irrational and each digit of your ratio will have the same base. You cannot express Pi with integers of any *edit* integer *edit* base.

pi:1 works... but its not an integer, defining a base so that Pi is an integer, *edit, wrong *edit* means that you must express the other part of the ratio as a non-integer, like 1: 0.31830988618 *edit* ok you can do pi: pi/pi , but that doesn't tell the recipient anything about what pi is) ... and the use of 0.5 + 0.5 clearly throws off the reader *edit*

You can never express it as a ratio of two integers

29 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Because that was the test question.

Its a stupid test question, and it sends no information that the recipient can use to determine intelligence... a tautology where pi = pi is not useful.

Why would you even send a test question? its supposed to be a message, not a test.

Showing Pi:1 is not useful if you give no information that you know what that ratio is

You continue to show me with post after post that there is something seriously wrong with your reasoning skills

Edited March 30, 2016 by KerikBalm

[Elrond Cupboard]

Just now, KerikBalm said:

 

Pi is a ratio.

 

Pi is irrational. It cannot be expressed as a ratio of integers. It is also transcendental, and thus would make a pretty poor choice of numeric base. However, with the proviso that the 0.5s in the original diagram are out of place base Pi makes the scheme complete, if pointless.

[Darnok]

1 minute ago, KerikBalm said:

No, they don't.

Pi is a ratio.

Ratios are independent of the base system. You can express 3:1 as 3:1 in decimal, or 10:1 in binary, but you will never be able to express pi, no matter the base, because its irrational and each digit of your ratio will have the same base. You cannot express Pi with integers of any base.

pi:1 works... but its not an integer, defining a base so that Pi is an integer, means that you must express the other part of the ratio as a non-integer, like 1: 0.31830988618

You can never express it as a ratio of two integers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-integer_representation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems

 

1 minute ago, KerikBalm said:

Its a stupid test question, and it sends no information that the recipient can use to determine intelligence... a tautology where pi = pi is not useful.

Showing Pi:1 is not useful if you give no information that you know what that ratio is

You continue to show me with post after post that there is something seriously wrong with your reasoning skills

It is basic and universal geometry question and you failed it.

[KerikBalm]

49 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I noted I would simplify that image, basically to this (except of π symbol would be replaced by 10, and those red arrows are not needed).

What you've decided to send is no more relevant than sending a message with a circle where the circumference is labeled H and the diameter is labelled |

It conveys no information about the actual value of Pi.

It conveys no indication that its from an intelligent source, no more so than sending an image of a circle or triangle itself... but again... that raises the question... how do you even send the message? the arecibo message was sent in binary, with a grid of 73 by 23 (two primes)... so you might as well start with sending primes so they even have a hint how to arrange the message.

After all, if you don't interpret the format right... even knowing one dimension is supposed to be 73, and another dimension is supposed to be 23, you get this:

instead of this:

40 minutes ago, Darnok said:

It is basic and universal geometry question and you failed it.

Somehow I doubt any math proffessor at any University would agree with you.

btw, ignorance and arrogance are a poor pairing.

Edited March 30, 2016 by KerikBalm

[p1t1o]

42 minutes ago, Darnok said:

SETI does convert every received signal into every base system we do understand?

They don't have to. any signal received can be assessed for information content without it being necessary to know how that information is encoded.

Once you know you have a signal that contains a message, as long as it isn't highly encrypted (bit pointless for a "hello!") decoding basic information should simply be a matter of time, especially if the message is simple or contains a "primer", like a string of primes say.

 

42 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Write few first primes in binary or trinary or 12-based system (you are using that system every day).

Do I have to? I'd just be regurgitating something I googled. I'll leave this here instead:

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55880.html

 

42 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Maybe for them it is not important what mass has element.

This scans as highly, highly unlikely. But even if it were so, to an intelligent being  making a concerted effort to understand the message and not be obtuse about it, elemental masses have a pretty good chance of being widely understood.

 

42 minutes ago, Darnok said:

you are writing from left to right, but there are countries that wrote right to left or top to bottom.

It doesn't matter, if you gave me a message written in another language, with another alphabet, written in down-to-up  and diagonally to the left columns, I wouldn't be all like "Whaaaaaaaaaaat? What nonsense is this? Must just be noise."

If it can be shown to be non-random and information-containing, assuming no deliberate attempts to make it difficult to interpret, then fundamentally simplistic messages could come in a vast variety of forms and still at least be recognised as such.

Yeah you can force the approach to communication "outside the box" if you like by using fancy bases and pi and all sorts, but you are just as likely making yourself harder to understand than easier. But either way, if you are sending at least some information, it should be possible for a wide variety of intelligences and psychologies to recognise it as such.

 

42 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Everything else...

hhmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeh....ooh, is that cake....BRB

 

*edit*

...hang on...let me just...<munch>... right:

It is basic and universal geometry question and you failed it.

...mate, no one is gonna wanna visit your planet.

Edited March 30, 2016 by p1t1o

[KerikBalm]

34 minutes ago, Elrond Cupboard said:

Pi is irrational. It cannot be expressed as a ratio of integers. It is also transcendental, and thus would make a pretty poor choice of numeric base. However, with the proviso that the 0.5s in the original diagram are out of place base Pi makes the scheme complete, if pointless.

ok, I guess they do if you define 1 as 1, and 10 as 1*pi ... but the rest of what I said is still valid, you can't express pi as a ratio of two integers, and sending a message that basically says "pi is pi" conveys no information... whereas sending an integer approximation shows that one actually understands the ratio.

However... then the use of 0.5 in the diagram is compeletely BS too.. because 0.5+ 0.5 does not equal 1 in base Pi, as you note... you also note that the scheme is pointless. The whole thing is just dumb.

Its already established in the diagram that 0.5+0.5 = 1... which only works in base 10... but then the circumference thing only works in base Pi, the thing is just... terrible...

 

Sending a message that contains errors and no actual information is utterly pointless and not the way to communicate

Edited March 30, 2016 by KerikBalm

[Darnok]

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

What you've decided to send is no more relevant than sending a message with a circle where the circumference is labeled H and the diameter is labelled |

It conveys no information about the actual value of Pi.

(my paint skills are great, I know)

It would be very basic way to communicate and learn each other symbols. I am 100% sure that aliens have to know geometry, so it would work pretty well if we would be able to present them images in face to face contact.
Since π is know to us, while any aliens or human tribe living in, for example South America, doesn't know π symbol, but if they know math and geometry they can understand that image and they would also know that you know math and you can think about abstract constructs.

Value of π is not important.

 

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

It conveys no indication that its from an intelligent source, no more so than sending an image of a circle or triangle itself... but again... that raises the question... how do you even send the message?

I said we could send engraved golden disks with basic geometry tests.

 

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

Somehow I doubt any math proffessor at any University would agree with you.

btw, ignorance and arrogance are a poor pairing.

Good I am not arrogant enough to speak for any professor.

 

 

57 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

This scans as highly, highly unlikely. But even if it were so, to an intelligent being  making a concerted effort to understand the message and not be obtuse about it, elemental masses have a pretty good chance of being widely understood.

Elemental masses is our concept, aliens can have different concepts and different equations.

 

57 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

 

It doesn't matter, if you gave me a message written in another language, with another alphabet, written in down-to-up  and diagonally to the left columns, I wouldn't be all like "Whaaaaaaaaaaat? What nonsense is this? Must just be noise."

Ok, try to decipher ancient Egypt glyphs without Rosetta stone It is impossible? We knew it is not random noise, but this didn't bring us any closer to better understanding of those glyphs.

 

57 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

If it can be shown to be non-random and information-containing, assuming no deliberate attempts to make it difficult to interpret, then fundamentally simplistic messages could come in a vast variety of forms and still at least be recognised as such.

I've suggested super simple message:

.  ..  ...  ....  ..... (until 10 dots)

and repeat that until someone responds. It can't be simpler and easier to send via radio waves and it would means "hey, I can count from 1 to 10, I can send radio waves and I am not afraid of letting you know where I am".

 

57 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

 

*edit*

...hang on...let me just...<munch>... right:

...mate, no one is gonna wanna visit your planet.

Then all its resource will be mine... mouhahahaha.

[p1t1o]

20 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Elemental masses is our concept, aliens can have different concepts and different equations.

Ummm no it isn't and no they can't, stop trolling around in circles.

 

20 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Ok, try to decipher ancient Egypt glyphs without Rosetta stone It is impossible? We knew it is not random noise, but this didn't bring us any closer to better understanding of those glyphs.

Firstly, neither us nor our imaginary aliens are at a Georgian tech level.

Secondly, our messages are going to start with very simple and fundamental primers, for example a string of universally recognisable primes [and NOT, for example, a bunch of historical political mumbo-jumbo]. Essentially we will be sending [or recieving] the rosetta stone itself. THEN we can talk about an actual message.

Thirdly:

isn't so hard to translate as the number "4622" is it? This is why numbers are a better way to start the communication.

 

20 minutes ago, Darnok said:

.  ..  ...  ....  ..... (until 10 dots)

and repeat that until someone responds. It can't be simpler and easier to send via radio waves and it would means "hey, I can count from 1 to 10, I can send radio waves and I am not afraid of letting you know where I am".

 

Yeah, you can do this, but your very first objection was something about bases. Primes are more fundamental than just a number count.

There may also be factors involving the signal standing out from background noise. A regular, steadily increasing signal (such as 1,2,3,4 etc) might possibly be easier to miss, or miss-hear, or interpret as a natural phenomena than the random-but-exact bounce of the ratios in the gaps between the primes.

Edited March 30, 2016 by p1t1o
woops, left a sentence incomplete!

[KerikBalm]

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

(my paint skills are great, I know)

Not bad, better than your first image. Still, all it really conveys is that 10 is our symbol for pi. It may make them think we use a base Pi system... and then if they think that and reply in base pi... oh man will that complicate things...

 

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Value of π is not important.

On the contrary, I think its very important. If we send a very accyrate value for pi, they'll know we've mastered certain mathematical concepts, for example, infinite series that can be used to compute pi. If we send pi=3.. then we haven't really shown our knowledge has exceeded that of sheep herders (a reference for pi=3 can be found in the bible, for instance).

e^pi*i = 1 only works if one knows something about the value of pi. Your symbol just says that there is a ratio that exists, but we don't show them that we know what it is or how to even approximate it.

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I said we could send engraved golden disks with basic geometry tests.

That's pretty much the hardest method, as I've linked to before, the arecibo array manage to send an image... and its not too hard to decode the information to form an image... where academics on earth faltered was making sense of most of the image of the arecibo message.

But that requires a binary code and understanding of primes. Its even easier to just send a sequence of primes.

But any good engraving on a plaque at all would signify intelligence, regardless of what you engrave. Its one thing if the "plaque" is scratchmarks on a stone... but if you send a plaque of a purified substance (like high purity gold), with precise straight engraved lines, or lines of precise curvature... basically any obvious precision manufacturing will be sufficient to let them know you are intelligent if you send a physicaly object.

Why are we sending tests at all? The message should show our knowledge, demonstrate that it comes from an intelligent source. If we send something intentionally convoluted, the aliens may not bother to respond.

If we don't inform them of something, or elicit a response, why would we send the message at all?

Your message isn't a test at all... at best the aliens would look at it and say... uh... they sent us their symbol for pi... ok?

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Elemental masses is our concept, aliens can have different concepts and different equations.

Elemental masses are fundamental, and not a matter of concept and equations. Only certain isotopes are stable/formed in abundance by stellar processes. The ratio of the mass most common isotope of hydrogen to the most common isotope of helium, for example, is constant throughout the observable universe. I am aware of no region (other than small volumes on earth where we separate the isotopes and purify one), where dueterium is more abundation than protium, or 3He is more abundant than 4He. Assuming the laws of physics are constant throught the region we can contact, these mass ratios will be constant as well.

 

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Ok, try to decipher ancient Egypt glyphs without Rosetta stone It is impossible? We knew it is not random noise, but this didn't bring us any closer to better understanding of those glyphs.

Which weren't intended to be easily understood. Its why our messages should be simple and express fundamental ideas... not convoluted "tests"

35 minutes ago, Darnok said:

.  ..  ...  ....  ..... (until 10 dots)

Well, that one isn't too bad. There are natural phenomenom that result in repetetive messages (a pulsar for example could be thought of as sending . . . . . . . . .  ad infinitum). Your message is essentally base 1, and sending any long number is going to be a lot of dots. But they'll probably recognize the repetitive counting as being unlikely to be due to a natural phenomenom... but sending a sequence of primes will remove all doubt and signify an interest in mathematics (hypothetically, one could develop a powerful radio communication device with only a rudimentary understanding of math)

Edited March 30, 2016 by KerikBalm

[KerikBalm]

Well, as to what I would send:

If its not going lightspeed, or nearly so, its too slow... EM radiation seems best. Next we need a signal that isn't easily blocked by interstellar gas, or planetary atmospheres if we're hoping to contact civilizations like ours that have limited or no capacity to recieve signals from space... so radiowaves, not UV-C lasers... visible light lasers may not be a terrible idea as they'd be visible to surface observers of a sufficiently earthlike planet some of the time, and they can be focused much better than radio.

Given the time, you don't want to wait for responses before sending the next message... I'd go with a series of messages that get more complex.

I'd start with simple counting in binary... no need to do any base more complicated than binary.

Then I'd send a sequence of primes and mathematical constants to show that the message is definitely from an intelligent source.

Then I'd send a sequence of two numbers specifying the height and length of a grid, followed by a sequence of a length that is the product of the two previous numbers... ie send 3, send 4, then send a sequence of 12 numbers. These number sequences would initially form "test patterns" - ie simple geometric patterns that should be recognized if the aliens arrange them in a grid of the specified size.

Then I would send other images, not just a symetric/geometric pattern.

Then the next set of messages would up the grid size, and would send various greyscale images. Then you can communicate a lot through images, even if they are just 640x480 greyscale images. We could send images like Darnok wants with circles, illustrating various base systems, images of atom models. Valence diagrams for the basic elements of our life, accompanied by symbols (like C next to a diagram of carbon, N next to a diagram of nitrogen), then chemical structures of simple biomolecules like bases, amino acids, sugars, etc.

We could start sending images with text below, to allow them to build a vocabulary of at least nouns.... followed by some adjectives.

Once one can send images that they can understand, I think you could communicate a lot... so I think the first thing you need to do is illustrate your number system, specify small grids with test patterns, then increase the size and really start communicating.

- All this is assuming you want to contact an alien intelligence, and you don't mind giving it information that it may potentially use against you. Telling them the basics of our biochemistry may make them decide that our world must be similar enough to theirs, that Earth is a good target for colonization... or that Earth may bea future competitor when/if we develop interstellar travel, and we should be wiped out... etc.

If you don't want to alert them... its better to send no message at all, than a message that they can't really use, but can probably tell came from an intelligence of some sort

- I do wonder what they would think of messages with obvious errors (ie, mostly primes, with some missing, and some non-primers), or that seem to lack any purpose ( π is our symbol for the ratio of circumference to diameter of a circle... or if we send darnoks image, then they think 10 is our symbol for that )...

But I wouldn't start an interstellar conversation by trolling them.

Edited March 30, 2016 by KerikBalm

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

What you've decided to send is no more relevant than sending a message with a circle where the circumference is labeled H and the diameter is labelled |

It conveys no information about the actual value of Pi.

It conveys no indication that its from an intelligent source, no more so than sending an image of a circle or triangle itself... but again... that raises the question... how do you even send the message? the arecibo message was sent in binary, with a grid of 73 by 23 (two primes)... so you might as well start with sending primes so they even have a hint how to arrange the message.

After all, if you don't interpret the format right... even knowing one dimension is supposed to be 73, and another dimension is supposed to be 23, you get this:

instead of this:

Somehow I doubt any math proffessor at any University would agree with you.

btw, ignorance and arrogance are a poor pairing.

Anybody who tries to display it like this would see that the second version has more order. 
Question is if they will try to display it rater than think its pure data. 
 

[p1t1o]

The arecibo message isn't a great example of a serious attempt at communication - it was openly stated that it was a ceremonial event mainly to demonstrate the capabilities of the new equipment and not a serious attempt to start up communications with ETs.

I mean the whole things is less than 2kilobytes and we are supposed to get the aliens from prime numbers straight to the encoding of genes into DNA?

It can be done better, and was never claimed to be a really hard try at it in the first place.

[KerikBalm]

Yea, in that case, it would be fairly trivial... but they'd have to know to display it as a 73x23 grid... which means they'd need to try and display it in many many different combinations before they got to one that seems to form a pattern. I guess they were hoping that the recipient would recognize that the total message length is a product of two primes. I think it would be easier, as I said in my previous message, to just send two numbers before specifying the dimensions. For example, 3, 5, and then a sequence of 15 numbers... that form a pattern if arranged as a grid of 3x4... after a few test pattern examples, the aliens should recognize the n_1, n_2, sequence of numbers where the length of the sequence = n_1 * n_2

Then you don't have to hope the aliens recognize the sequence length as a product of two primes, and then try and arrange it in a grid/ try arranging it in a grid of every possible dimension.

A product of two primes is nice because then there are only two ways you can form it into a grid (3x5 or 5x3 for the previous example).... but I think 23 x73 is a bit much... although if the recipient spent a long time trying to understand it, they probably would arrive at the correct grid.

I still think I'd want to directly specify the grid size, but starting with a small grid of two small primes (3x5, 5x7, etc) seems like a good way to introduce them to the syntax that you intend to use to send images.

9 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

The arecibo message isn't a great example of a serious attempt at communication - it was openly stated that it was a ceremonial event mainly to demonstrate the capabilities of the new equipment and not a serious attempt to start up communications with ETs.

I mean the whole things is less than 2kilobytes and we are supposed to get the aliens from prime numbers straight to the encoding of genes into DNA?

It can be done better, and was never claimed to be a really hard try at it in the first place.

I know, I already mentioned that the people they sent it to on earth couldnt decode it... I think some did figure out the 23x73 grid though, but the various symbology wasn't understood.

I refer to it as an example, but as I said, I would send a series of messages, in increasing complexity... and I would want to be sending many, much higher resolution images to try and explain more advanced concepts. They clearly tried to put too much knowledge into too few bytes.

The first messages would just be to demonstrate an intelligent source, and make sure they understand the grid format... then the "high resolution" greyscale images start being sent.

[Atlas2342]

23 hours ago, p1t1o said:

The classics are the best:

2,5,7,9,11,13,17,19,23 etc.

In all seriousness, what is this supposed to be? 

IM GUESSING PRIME NUMBERS BUT Y U HAVE 9 BUT NO 3 ???

[KerikBalm]

already mentioned, he admitted it was a mistake

[p1t1o]

10 minutes ago, Atlas2342 said:

In all seriousness, what is this supposed to be? 

IM GUESSING PRIME NUMBERS BUT Y U HAVE 9 BUT NO 3 ???

Favorite bible passages.

JK, fixed! 

[Darnok]

I would stay away from any images, except geometrical shapes (Platonic solid) or geometrical representation of math constants.

Aliens probably do have history and culture and what if your image would contain one of their symbol? It is not hard to imagine how it could turns out if you would send gammadion cross or Neron cross in one of first messages.

I would stay with my dots, only make message longer... but it should be something that even 6 year old kid would understand like

.  ..  ...  ....  .....  (up to 10, since you want to show aliens you prefer 10-based system)
(longer silence)
.  .  ..
..  ..  ....
...  ...  ......
.  ..  ...
..  .  ...
(longer silence)
...  .  ..
...  ..  .
....  ..  ..
.....  ...  ..
.....  ..  ...
(longer silence)
..  ...  ......
...  ..  ......
.  ..  ..
..  .  ..
..  ..  ....
(longer silence)
........  ....  ..
........  ..  ....
....  ..  ..
..  ..  .
..  .  ..
(starts from 10) ....  ...  ..  .
(repeat counting 1... 10)

Even few years old kids should solve this and understand it is not random. Also this message won't tell too much about our level of development, it will only tell we are intelligent enough to know math.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Darnok

[KAL 9000]

Darnok, pi is not 10. Pi is ~3.1415926...

Also, my idea would be to send something along the lines of, "Ignore our TV broadcasts, we are actually intelligent."  

Ok, not really.

[HebaruSan]

53 minutes ago, KAL 9000 said:

Darnok, pi is not 10. Pi is ~3.1415926...

FYI, this "pi=10" thing has been brought up already in at least one other thread. When problems with the idea were pointed out, no solutions were forthcoming. I'd recommend trying to stay focused on the original thread topic rather than rehashing irrational bases.