Laythes' Secret Toxic Trace gas...

[Obsidian_mc]

We all have looked at Laythe when we first bought the game, (Or when it was first released for others), and thought, "That place looks habitable!. For those who have managed to make it there, (Not me, I can barely land on the Mun!), we have done that EVA report, and we found a "Toxic Trace Gas". I bet a lot of you have been wondering what that gas is, or maybe you weren't, if you haven't, this isn't the Topic for you. But if you have, keep on reading...

 

The Theory

          My current theory, due to some intensive research on the Wiki and forums. I have come up with a very plausible theory. Laythes' Toxic Trace gas is...

CHLORINE!   

The reason for this theory is that the Wiki claims that Jools' strange color, {Green}, may be caused by some amounts of Chlorine gas in its upper atmosphere. If that IS the case, then possibly during the formation of Laythe and Jool, there must have been some largish amount of Chlorine in the "Cloud" that was soon to be Jool. Some of this may have been left over from its formation. and when Laythe started developing its Oxygen Atmosphere, some of the remaining Chlorine gas must have been "Captured" by Laythes SOI to become part of its atmosphere. Now, this is only a possibility and a theory, due to the SPECIFIC amount that would have been needed to make Laythes atmosphere only slightly deadly.

 

Supporting Evidence!

Some supporting evidence of this is, well, the Wiki making this claim, and it is very well justified and thought out well. but in order for Jool to be THAT green. There must have been quite a bit. Enough so that there would have been plenty left over. Also, Chlorine is VERY toxic, not suitable for breathing in.  It can cause Circulatory problems, low blood pressure, Skin burning, and damage to the eyes. So, Chlorine matches the DEADLY part of the claim. It also seems to match the "How did it get there idea". So, I think it is very plausible Chlorline is the T.T.G on Laythe. Making up about 3-4% of its atmosphere. Which seems to be a reasonable amount, and enough to kill you...

 

 

 

Obsidian, out!

Edited April 17, 2016 by Obsidian_mc

[Scotius]

Chlorine is also extremely reactive. Without steady supply chlorine in the atmosphere would be  bound to other substances - for example forming NaCl (table salt). Which would make Laythe's oceans extremely salty, which would mean they would not freeze easily even so far from the Kerbol...waitaminute!

[cantab]

Chlorine's colour is rather faint, making it a poor explanation for Jool I think.

Personally I think the toxic gas in Laythe's atmosphere is simply carbon dioxide. For us humans, more than a few percent CO₂ will kill us even if there's plenty of oxygen, because we can't get the CO₂ concentration in our bodies lower than the atmospheric level. Kerbals may be the same. And it makes sense that Laythe has loads of CO₂ to help its strong greenhouse effect keep it warm.

[KerikBalm]

i favor high co2 as well.

the mw of the gas suggests its mostly just N2 and O2, and should be fine though :/

[fredinno]

2 hours ago, Obsidian_mc said:

We all have looked at Laythe when we first bought the game, (Or when it was first released for others), and thought, "That place looks habitable!. For those who have managed to make it there, (Not me, I can barely land on the Mun!), we have done that EVA report, and we found a "Toxic Trace Gas". I bet a lot of you have been wondering what that gas is, or maybe you weren't, if you haven't, this isn't the Topic for you. But if you have, keep on reading...

 

The Theory

          My current theory, due to some intensive research on the Wiki and forums. I have come up with a very plausible theory. Laythes' Toxic Trace gas is...

CHLORINE!   

The reason for this theory is that the Wiki claims that Jools' strange color, {Green}, may be caused by some amounts of Chlorine gas in its upper atmosphere. If that IS the case, then possibly during the formation of Laythe and Jool, there must have been some largish amount of Chlorine in the "Cloud" that was soon to be Jool. Some of this may have been left over from its formation. and when Laythe started developing its Oxygen Atmosphere, some of the remaining Chlorine gas must have been "Captured" by Laythes SOI to become part of its atmosphere. Now, this is only a possibility and a theory, due to the SPECIFIC amount that would have been needed to make Laythes atmosphere only slightly deadly.

 

Supporting Evidence!

Some supporting evidence of this is, well, the Wiki making this claim, and it is very well justified and thought out well. but in order for Jool to be THAT green. There must have been quite a bit. Enough so that there would have been plenty left over. Also, Chlorine is VERY toxic, not suitable for breathing in.  It can cause Circulatory problems, low blood pressure, Skin burning, and damage to the eyes. So, Chlorine matches the DEADLY part of the claim. It also seems to match the "How did it get there idea". So, I think it is very plausible Chlorline is the T.T.G on Laythe. Making up about 3-4% of its atmosphere. Which seems to be a reasonable amount, and enough to kill you...

 

 

 

Obsidian, out!

Impossible, all the clorine would have reacted by now.

[OzEtkin]

If you're reading this, keep in mind that I'm not a chemistry expert. Much of what I say in this post is probably incorrect .

4 hours ago, cantab said:

Chlorine's colour is rather faint, making it a poor explanation for Jool I think.

Although it is faint, its color can be seen with the naked eye (see image). If Jool's atmosphere was composed of chlorine, the planet would have a distinct      yellow-green color, which it does. The KSP wiki also suggests that Laythe's soil, ocean, and atmosphere have a high salt content, providing some strong evidence that chlorine is (or was, possibly in the case of Laythe) present in Laythe's and Jool's atmosphere.  

Chlorine:

2 hours ago, fredinno said:

Impossible, all the chlorine would have reacted by now.

That is also a possibility. If all of the gas had reacted, there may be massive amounts of salt (lets assume that there were also massive amounts of sodium on the surface, perhaps before the oceans had formed, which reacted with the atmosphere to form NaCl) in the soil, atmosphere, and ocean, which Scotius mentioned could keep the water liquid so far away from Kerbol.

The entry about Laythe at wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com suggests that the atmosphere is saturated with salt, making it toxic. Again, I am not a chemistry       expert, so I apologize if any of what I have written is incorrect or makes no sense.

Edited April 18, 2016 by OzEtkin

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, OzEtkin said:

If you're reading this, keep in mind that I'm not a chemistry expert. Much of what I say in this post is probably incorrect .

Although it is faint, its color can be seen with the naked eye (see image). If Jool's atmosphere was composed of chlorine, the planet would have a distinct      yellow-green color, which it does. The KSP wiki also suggests that Laythe's soil, ocean, and atmosphere have a high salt content, providing some strong evidence that chlorine is (or was, possibly in the case of Laythe) present in Laythe's and Jool's atmosphere.  

Chlorine:

That is also a possibility. If all of the gas had reacted, there may be massive amounts of salt (lets assume that there were also massive amounts of sodium on the surface, perhaps before the oceans had formed, which reacted with the atmosphere to form NaCl) in the soil, atmosphere, and ocean, which Scotius mentioned could keep the water liquid so far away from Kerbol.

The entry about Laythe at wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com suggests that the atmosphere is saturated with salt, making it toxic. Again, I am not a chemistry       expert, so I apologize if any of what I have written is incorrect or makes no sense.

How would salt make an atmosphere toxic?

Also, the Chlorine in Jool's atmosphere would also likely react with the H2 to form HCl. Which is just as fun

Laythe is almost certainly toxic due to Co2 levels being too high, and O2 levels too low- the moon will have low amounts of photosynthesis due to being far from the Sun. Also, I haven't seen any plants there...

Laythe is also toxic in the way that the orbital resonance with Tylo and Vall causes the moon to librate every so often, creating huge tidal forces and waves, and is a good source of volcanic activity.

Why can't we have that in KSP?

[Findthepin1]

I think Laythe's unhabitableness is caused by excess carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide, etc. released by volcanoes under the ocean. We can't breathe those things. There are so many other related things which are understandable if you read the following. I present to you, the Laythe Theory.

So Laythe's orbiting with other large objects near it. Plus it's on rails. This means it goes through a lot of tidal stress as its mass is trying to move towards Vall and Tylo but the object is stuck in its current orbit. It actually doesn't get that much tidal stress as Io. See, Io orbits a 318-Earth-mass object. Laythe orbits an 80-Kerbin-mass object. Much less tidal force acts on Laythe. That is why the surface isn't molten completely, and Jool's low mass relative for a Jovian planet is also the reason why radiation doesn't seem to be a problem ingame on Laythe. Jool simply isn't capable of causing it.

However, we need to address Laythe's water. Jool was much hotter back when it and its moons formed. This meant that no ice could accumulate around Laythe's orbit, it was all boiled away. Laythe needs to have gotten its water some other way, more recently. My theory is that geologically very recently, a small icy dwarf planet entered the Jool system, shattered into tons of tiny bits due to tidal forces, and most of the bits collided with Laythe. Remember, objects in KSP are on rails, but passing through an object's SOI can change your orbit. And tidal forces obviously exist in KSP, there are things that are tidally locked. That showered the moon in water. It already had a thick atmosphere, at Kerbinlike pressures, and an average temperature only a bit below freezing. The water vapour that entered the atmosphere began to heat the moon up as it deposited near the poles as ice.

Now the moon is warm enough that it can have widespread water. Suddenly oceans appeared across the moon. The polar ice deposits, snowed on by water vapour put into the atmosphere by entering, evaporating ice asteroids, are beginning to melt. This explains why Laythe's former polar caps were grounded, even though they were well below sea level. They were there before the water was. So Laythe is eventually covered in a global sea.

Let me tell you what happens with tidal forces. Yes, those are still important. They put stress on the crust and cause volcanoes to pop up everywhere. On Laythe, these are all underwater. Sometimes there is a mega-eruption that has effects above the shoreline. A few weeks ago, a fellow KSP player posted a picture of a very large region on Laythe looking "sick". It looked to me like dark volcanic sand. Probably a very large eruption happened and covered the old ground up. Anyway, when these are underwater, they have the effect of boiling a ton of water. This all goes to the upper atmosphere as water vapour. This means most of Laythe is covered by clouds at any given time.  Water vapour is a strong greenhouse gas. So it heats the atmosphere. It's also high enough above the bulk of the air that solar radiation can get to it. Solar radiation can't get to the surface, but at the edge of the atmosphere it's as strong as it should be. Laythe gets 1/16 the light Kerbin does. There is still enough to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, especially considering Laythe's lack of a magnetic field (spins too slowly) and its orbit being in Jool's main radiation belts. We have a crisis. Welcome to the Laythocalypse.

Here is a preview on that environment's demise. The water vapour, which now makes up a significant part of the atmosphere, is breaking up into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is escaping. The atmospheric pressure in 1.0 (0.6 atm) is only three-quarters what it was in 0.90. The water vapour is heating up the moon. The average temperature in 1.0 (16 degrees, IIRC) is, like, 12 degrees higher than it was in 0.90. I am hearing preliminary reports that by 1.1, the polar caps are 100% gone. Not a trace. The milder temperatures are keeping water vapour from condensing for longer, letting more be split into hydrogen and oxygen. Volcanoes are causing massive changes to the land. The air is disappearing and the radiation in space is getting closer and closer to the ground because the air can no longer protect it. Eventually most of the air is gone and Laythe cools down again, this time to far below freezing as there are now frozen oceans to reflect light.

TL;DR: Laythe got water from a shattered dwarf planet. It got oceans. Then Laythe clouds over, overheats, then loses most of its air and almost all of its greenhouse effect, and as a result it becomes a cold wasteland reminiscent of Duna. 

If something doesn't make sense about this, let me know. 

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, Findthepin1 said:

Jovian planet is also the reason why radiation doesn't seem to be a problem ingame on Laythe. Jool simply isn't capable of causing it.

Even an 80 Earth Mass object generates problematic magnetic fields. But Laythe looks like it could host a liquid core due to it being relatively large and tidal heating.

1 hour ago, Findthepin1 said:

However, we need to address Laythe's water. Jool was much hotter back when it and its moons formed. This meant that no ice could accumulate around Laythe's orbit, it was all boiled away. Laythe needs to have gotten its water some other way, more recently. My theory is that geologically very recently, a small icy dwarf planet entered the Jool system, shattered into tons of tiny bits due to tidal forces, and most of the bits collided with Laythe. Remember, objects in KSP are on rails, but passing through an object's SOI can change your orbit. And tidal forces obviously exist in KSP, there are things that are tidally locked. That showered the moon in water. It already had a thick atmosphere, at Kerbinlike pressures, and an average temperature only a bit below freezing. The water vapour that entered the atmosphere began to heat the moon up as it deposited near the poles as ice.

Umm, since Jool is smaller, wouldn't the ice line also move in, allowing Laythe to get water premidorally?

 

Also, the GHG effect on Laythe would have to be insane. Titan isn't heated up despite having a 4% Methane composition, a extremely potent GHG.

[KerikBalm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide

Considering that laythe should have volcanic activity (I tend to think of various crater shaped landforms as volcanic cauldera rather than impact structures), H2S is a possibility. It also has a MW of only 34, which is close to Laythe's 28. something. So a small percent H2S won't skew it so much.

[Turf]

I've heard that the urge to breath is the accumulation of carbon dioxide.

So yeah. I agree with Laythe's higher-than-normal-but-not-too-much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

[max_creative]

18 hours ago, fredinno said:

Impossible, all the clorine would have reacted by now.

Then Jool would have blown up. Jool hasn't blown up yet. I agree with the theory though. Maybe something is preventing it from reacting? 

[cubinator]

I think it's pretty clear that Laythe is chock full of salt. How it got there specifically is a mystery to me, but significant levels of chlorine in the atmosphere would be likely if Laythe came from the same 'stuff' as Jool.

[Obsidian_mc]

So glad you guys are partaking in this discussion! I didnt  expect this many replies! Ok, since my theory, was a a THEORY. You guys should discuss your theories as well! 

On 4/17/2016 at 1:14 PM, Scotius said:

Chlorine is also extremely reactive. Without steady supply chlorine in the atmosphere would be  bound to other substances - for example forming NaCl (table salt). Which would make Laythe's oceans extremely salty, which would mean they would not freeze easily even so far from the Kerbol...waitaminute!

This guy gets it! 

[KerikBalm]

Yea, I get it too... but the problem is that free Cl is very very unlikely. Just as O2 in an atmosphere is very unlikely and needs to be actively maintained by an energy source/life... something would have to be generating that Cl... because that Cl would have a higher affinity for hydrogen than O, and with all that H2O, the Cl would rapidly replace the O and make HCl.

Photosynthesis would still invovle splitting the water, releasing O2... unless those oceans are mainly HCl... also the MW of the atmosphere doesn't match.

Given that some life produces H2S, and life is a very good explanation for the O2 in the atmosphere, I'm going to go with H2S... or just CO2, but CO2's MW is 44... so >5% CO2 would increase the average MW of laythe's atmosphere (assuming primarily N2/O2) by about 0.75.

The MW of laythe's atmosphere seems a bit too low... unless we assume a lower % O2, and higher % CO2... which could work.

Jool is Green because of the magic sacrifices of ancient Kerbals, who would sacrifice their own to the green god to keep kerbin green

[lajoswinkler]

No, it can not be possible. Chlorine will not spontaneusly form in any natural environment and it sure as hell won't accumulate. It's one of the most powerful oxidizers. It wants that last electron so bad and it will wreck pretty much anything it comes in contact with just to get it.

[Kertech]

Chlorine is too reactive to remain in gaseous form for very long, so really unlikely to be present in high enough concentrations to be toxic. I prefer Hydrogen sulphide (which is also a greenhouse gas so would be a nice blanket), ammonia or Carbon monoxide (which would be a killer assuming human like oxygen carriage in trace amounts)

[swjr-swis]

Chlorine, due to the salt connection, is an 'inviting' solution, but as others said, it's way too reactive. With as much water as exists on Laythe, a large part of it would've long ago dissolved in the seas. Also, it reacts very willingly with organics (hence the use for disinfection), and if we assume the green we see on the sparse Laythe land is some form of life, it would've either killed that life or been assimilated by it.

Carbon dioxide would seem a candidate, until you consider that at the amount necessary for it to become toxic (>5%), it can no longer be considered a 'trace' element (max of 100 to 1000 parts per million, depending on what definition is used). Also, long before it becomes toxic or even detrimental to life, it would more likely have already caused a runaway greenhouse effect, making Laythe a Venus-like world.

 

Personally, I think the toxic trace element is what Kerbals on their homeworld know as the solidified 'snacks', except Laythe has it's own brand of it (trademark pending) as an aerosol emitted by the potato-like plant that covers the small bits of land. Theories are still sketchy, but some Kerbals suspect a potatoroid impact from being the primal seed of that plant life.

It would explain the high salt content and the green vegetation on Laythe, the same way as on Kerbin. The toxicity of Laythe for Kerbals is due to this potato strain defending itself against a Kerbal invasion, which suggests either some form of intelligence and long-range observation (it learned that Kerbals devour 'snacks' on their home planet), or just a fluke of nature and diverting evolution.

[cubinator]

9 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

green vegetation on Laythe

Wut? How have I missed this?

[Obsidian_mc]

1 hour ago, cubinator said:

Wut? How have I missed this?

I didn't even know this...

I mean, cut me some slack, I HAVEN'T EVEN LEFT THE KERBIN SYSTEM MANNED! (Successfully at least)

 

 

Obsidan, Out

[cubinator]

25 minutes ago, Obsidian_mc said:

I didn't even know this...

I mean, cut me some slack, I HAVEN'T EVEN LEFT THE KERBIN SYSTEM MANNED! (Successfully at least)

 

 

Obsidan, Out

I have never seen any sign of vegetation on Laythe. I'm sure there's plenty of room for life in the ocean, though.

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, cubinator said:

I have never seen any sign of vegetation on Laythe. I'm sure there's plenty of room for life in the ocean, though.

Librations due to orbital resonances cause large tidal waves.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/interstellarfilm/images/6/6a/Wave.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150713090356

[kerbiloid]

Diacetyl seems to be green colored. Also it's simple, not aggressive, consists of extremely common elements.

[cubinator]

6 hours ago, fredinno said:

Librations due to orbital resonances cause large tidal waves.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/interstellarfilm/images/6/6a/Wave.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150713090356

I've read the waves on Laythe would be some 50 m tall, much less than the monster from that black hole (how did that planet get there anyway? No sane planet would go that close to a black hole.). And Laythe is tidally locked, so the large wave from Jool wouldn't appear to move. Only the other muns would cause waves to worry about, and they are never all aligned at once, so the tides should be quite manageable for anything below the low-tide line. Which makes sense because there doesn't seem to be any life on the surface.

[KerikBalm]

10 hours ago, Obsidian_mc said:

I didn't even know this...

I mean, cut me some slack, I HAVEN'T EVEN LEFT THE KERBIN SYSTEM MANNED! (Successfully at least)

 

 

Obsidan, Out

there's nothing to miss, he seems to be seeing what he wants to see...

there's no green vegetation on laythe.

Any life would have to be in the seas or microscopic