[1.3.0] Kerbalism v1.2.9

[The-Doctor]

3 hours ago, lordcirth said:

You've got it extended?

yes

[MacLuky]

I can't seem to get Ven's small inflatable to deploy outside the VAB.

The patch looks ok to me:

@PART[SmallInflatableHAB]:NEEDS[VenStockRevamp,FeatureHabitat]:AFTER[Kerbalism]
{
  @MODULE[Habitat]
  {
    inflate = SmallHabInflate
    state = disabled
  }
  !MODULE[ModuleAnimateGeneric]:HAS[#animationName[SmallHabInflate]] {}
}

animation lines up with Vens but stays deflated when I enable it. (Kerbalism 1.4, KSP 1.3) log is not showing anything relevant.

[sidfu]

isnt the !MODULE removing its animation module?

[lordcirth]

Isn't upgrading the Tracking Station / Deep Space Network supposed to increase comm range like in stock?  I just put some probes in orbit of Duna, they could barely reach back (2.59kb/s) so I upgraded tracking to level 3.  Now they are still as slow, and in fact no data seems to transmit even at maximum warp.  Do I need to just wait a year for Duna to be closer?

[Nathangun]

10 hours ago, lordcirth said:

  Do I need to just wait a year for Duna to be closer?

 

You shouldn't, I'm playing in RSS and had a probe fly-by Mars and had no trouble sending data. What type of antennas have you got on the  probes?

[lordcirth]

6 hours ago, Nathangun said:

 

You shouldn't, I'm playing in RSS and had a probe fly-by Mars and had no trouble sending data. What type of antennas have you got on the  probes?

It's an RA-2 Relay Antenna (25 Gm) for the high-gain, and a Commutron 16 for low-gain.

 

The Kerbalism planner said it would be in range some of the time; I planned on upgrading the Tracking Station for the 5x range while it was in flight.  I upgraded it after I arrived a Duna and saw it was barely connected.  Supposedly 2.59kb/s and I could control them but data wouldn't transmit.  But the upgrade did nothing; I timewarped till Duna was getting close again.  Now it's 11kb/s:

11 is enough to transmit.  However, I am now having an electricity shortage on the relay sats - I must have forgotten to set "simulate in planner" on both antennas at once while designing.  But that's entirely my own fault.

[lordcirth]

So my problem might actually be a background processing problem, I'm getting this spam again:

 

Parameter name: key
        System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,KERBALISM.resource_info].TryGetValue (System.String key, KERBALISM.resource_info& value)
        KERBALISM.vessel_resources.Info (.Vessel v, System.String resource_name)
        KERBALISM.Background.ProcessCryoTank (.Vessel v, .ProtoPartSnapshot p, .ProtoPartModuleSnapshot m, .PartModule simple_boiloff, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Background.update (.Vessel v, KERBALISM.vessel_info vi, KERBALISM.VesselData vd, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Kerbalism.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 17:10:08.167] ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null.
Parameter name: key
        System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,KERBALISM.resource_info].TryGetValue (System.String key, KERBALISM.resource_info& value)
        KERBALISM.vessel_resources.Info (.Vessel v, System.String resource_name)
        KERBALISM.Background.ProcessCryoTank (.Vessel v, .ProtoPartSnapshot p, .ProtoPartModuleSnapshot m, .PartModule simple_boiloff, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Background.update (.Vessel v, KERBALISM.vessel_info vi, KERBALISM.VesselData vd, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Kerbalism.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 17:10:08.186] ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null.

It sounds like an incompatibility with CryoTanks.  @ShotgunNinja am I right?

[leomike]

On 8/22/2017 at 4:52 PM, lordcirth said:

The Kerbalism planner said it would be in range some of the time; I planned on upgrading the Tracking Station for the 5x range while it was in flight.  I upgraded it after I arrived a Duna and saw it was barely connected.  Supposedly 2.59kb/s and I could control them but data wouldn't transmit.  But the upgrade did nothing

The antenna ranges in Kerbalism are fixed and not impacted by the tracking station level. There is also a minimum connection rate to allow for data transmission if I remember well, but I thought that was set to 1kb/s. Anything below that would only allow for telemetry (aka control).

[The-Doctor]

Anyone got an MKS patch?

[The-Doctor]

@ShotgunNinja I must say, the science labs have almost no purpose due to kerbalism, them only converting samples into data, while it's a nice function, isn't enough to justify building stations etc. Basically, the original function of the science labs should return on top of them converting samples into data, but they shouldn't only convert samples into data, they shouldn't only use samples. I made a massive station in GPP, and I used cxaerospace, but keralism overrided all the labs and the station had zero function over than for station science, I really feel this robbed me of a great part of ksp. I generally like science in this mod but I really wish you would add that part back in. I also really wish you'd let the data capsule return, regardless of if it has no purpose, some of us really miss it (I almost forgot it existed)

Now that I think of it, I think I'll disable science tbh

[Zombie_Striker]

26 minutes ago, The-Doctor said:

@ShotgunNinja I must say, the science labs have almost no purpose due to kerbalism, them only converting samples into data, while it's a nice function, isn't enough to justify building stations etc. Basically, the original function of the science labs should return on top of them converting samples into data, but they shouldn't only convert samples into data, they shouldn't only use samples. I made a massive station in GPP, and I used cxaerospace, but keralism overrided all the labs and the station had zero function over than for station science, I really feel this robbed me of a great part of ksp. I generally like science in this mod but I really wish you would add that part back in. I also really wish you'd let the data capsule return, regardless of if it has no purpose, some of us really miss it (I almost forgot it existed)

Now that I think of it, I think I'll disable science tbh

I think the issue is not that there should be science. Re-adding science generation would just be a temporarily fix. The real issue is that that science labs don't really contribute anything to your ships. It doesn't matter if you have a lab around Kerbin, around the Mun, or on Duna, they all produce the same amount of science, and that is all they do. Not only that, but all you need, at most, is one per spaceship. In my save, I have already added seven to my kerbin station just because of contracts.

@ShotgunNinja If I were to make a suggestion on what to do with labs, it would be to add new stats that labs could deal with. Injuries and sicknesses would be a real problem for long duration trips. Maybe one of the modes for labs could be as a medical bay. This mode can be separate from the current mode, so that there could be a reason to have more than one module.

[The-Doctor]

50 minutes ago, Zombie_Striker said:

I think the issue is not that there should be science. Re-adding science generation would just be a temporarily fix. The real issue is that that science labs don't really contribute anything to your ships. It doesn't matter if you have a lab around Kerbin, around the Mun, or on Duna, they all produce the same amount of science, and that is all they do. Not only that, but all you need, at most, is one per spaceship. In my save, I have already added seven to my kerbin station just because of contracts.

@ShotgunNinja If I were to make a suggestion on what to do with labs, it would be to add new stats that labs could deal with. Injuries and sicknesses would be a real problem for long duration trips. Maybe one of the modes for labs could be as a medical bay. This mode can be separate from the current mode, so that there could be a reason to have more than one module.

exactly, just like the outdated mod that added station parts, I forgot the name, but some science labs made medicine in their research. Also the science labs DO a lot, they generate science from things you've got, maybe if shotgun made them generate science but only from samples and not just convert samples into data, converting samples into data is rather pointless, cause I have to send a crewed mission to use the lab I might as well just bring the sample all the way home since the crew must return home anyways, hence making using the science lab pointless, I discovered this after my first flyby eve, I thought, well if It's gonna take this long to process the samples only to convert them into data to transmit, then I should have not brought a science lab as I'm gonna recover the crew anywas. @ShotgunNinja this is really important, cause science as it is discourages the use of science labs 

[the_machemer]

I'm away from home and playing on my laptop which has less processing power than a grandfather clock, so I was wonder which things I need to get nothing but the science changes and science storage/transmission UI.

Thanks

[lordcirth]

14 hours ago, the_machemer said:

I'm away from home and playing on my laptop which has less processing power than a grandfather clock, so I was wonder which things I need to get nothing but the science changes and science storage/transmission UI.

Thanks

You will need Science and Signal on; I think everything else can go.

[leomike]

@Zombie_Striker @The-Doctor I'd agree with both of you that the current science lab are of limited use (other than suicide missions or to simply get science faster) .

@ShotgunNinja A simple alternative might be to make returned samples only yield 50% of the cap, the rest can only be generated by analyzing this sample in a lab. I tried implementing this in the modified version of Kerbalism I play with and it's relatively straight forward. Let me know if you want me to submit a pull request.

[The-Doctor]

26 minutes ago, leomike said:

@Zombie_Striker @The-Doctor I'd agree with both of you that the current science lab are of limited use (other than suicide missions or to simply get science faster) .

@ShotgunNinja A simple alternative might be to make returned samples only yield 50% of the cap, the rest can only be generated by analyzing this sample in a lab. I tried implementing this in the modified version of Kerbalism I play with and it's relatively straight forward. Let me know if you want me to submit a pull request.

that's still not enough justification, the science labs have to have their original function again, no way around it, converting samples to data should just be an addition, otherwise it's pointless, and @ShotgunNinja it's not fictional, it's not making science out of thin air, it's analyzing data done by scientists on site to discover new things that remote analysis doesn't allow, a sample from Mars analyzed in a lab in real life would give us more data than all scans from probes on Mars, Kerbalisms current cannibalizing of the science labs in all mods is currently unplayable 

[leomike]

1 hour ago, The-Doctor said:

it's not fictional, it's not making science out of thin air, it's analyzing data done by scientists on site to discover new things that remote analysis doesn't allow, a sample from Mars analyzed in a lab in real life would give us more data than all scans from probes on Mars, Kerbalisms current cannibalizing of the science labs in all mods is currently unplayable 

It is somewhat out of thin air. The KSC would be much better prepared to analyze any sample than any orbital laboratory could be. There isn't really a reason why this should create more science if analyzed than if it is simply returned to Kerbin. In nhe end this is a matter of balancing realism and gameplay.

[Basilicofresco]

In the Convert-O-Tron 250 we cannot set the same process in both of the slots. Is it a deliberate choice or a technical limitation?

[ZEvangile]

On 22/08/2017 at 11:13 PM, lordcirth said:

So my problem might actually be a background processing problem, I'm getting this spam again:

 

Parameter name: key
        System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,KERBALISM.resource_info].TryGetValue (System.String key, KERBALISM.resource_info& value)
        KERBALISM.vessel_resources.Info (.Vessel v, System.String resource_name)
        KERBALISM.Background.ProcessCryoTank (.Vessel v, .ProtoPartSnapshot p, .ProtoPartModuleSnapshot m, .PartModule simple_boiloff, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Background.update (.Vessel v, KERBALISM.vessel_info vi, KERBALISM.VesselData vd, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Kerbalism.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 17:10:08.167] ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null.
Parameter name: key
        System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,KERBALISM.resource_info].TryGetValue (System.String key, KERBALISM.resource_info& value)
        KERBALISM.vessel_resources.Info (.Vessel v, System.String resource_name)
        KERBALISM.Background.ProcessCryoTank (.Vessel v, .ProtoPartSnapshot p, .ProtoPartModuleSnapshot m, .PartModule simple_boiloff, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Background.update (.Vessel v, KERBALISM.vessel_info vi, KERBALISM.VesselData vd, KERBALISM.vessel_resources resources, Double elapsed_s)
        KERBALISM.Kerbalism.FixedUpdate ()
[EXC 17:10:08.186] ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null.

It sounds like an incompatibility with CryoTanks.  @ShotgunNinja am I right?

I too got those kind of log spams. I removed the CryoTanks mod and... No more spam ! In the same time, science transmissions works again.

[The-Doctor]

12 hours ago, leomike said:

It is somewhat out of thin air. The KSC would be much better prepared to analyze any sample than any orbital laboratory could be. There isn't really a reason why this should create more science if analyzed than if it is simply returned to Kerbin. In nhe end this is a matter of balancing realism and gameplay.

that is utter nonsense. Scientists in a lab on Mars would find out the same data that scientists on Earth would, maybe even more, since they are on site, that's why they want to send humans to Mars, saying the science lab makes science out of thin air is incorrect, it uses SCIENTISTS to discover new data from science experiments ON SITE that they wouldn't be able to do without a lab, that's why in REAL LIFE we want to send humans to Mars and more with a science lab in the habitat, to discover MORE SCIENCE than robotics or non-science lab missions would @ShotgunNinja

[theJesuit]

Does anyone have an issue that the volume of the tokamak centrifuge and other parts that have contain kerbals in kerbalism keep changing their surface area and volume even in flight.  I admit to a highly nodded game but just wondered if other people have encountered it as I'm struggling to identify the culprit mod...

Thanks.  Peace.

[leomike]

@The-Doctor 

I agree that having an on-site science lab would allow us to generate more science from soil samples (whether this holds for other types of samples as defined by Kerbalism would be debatable).

In my comment I was refering to the stock mechanic where a sample is worth more if analyzed in a lab in orbit than if returned to Kerbin. One would expect that the KSC already has a lab and therefore there shouldn't be more science generated from the same sample in orbit.

If we want to properly replicate what you are referring to, we could simply create a new experiment that can only be done in the science lab.

[The-Doctor]

1 hour ago, leomike said:

@The-Doctor 

I agree that having an on-site science lab would allow us to generate more science from soil samples (whether this holds for other types of samples as defined by Kerbalism would be debatable).

In my comment I was refering to the stock mechanic where a sample is worth more if analyzed in a lab in orbit than if returned to Kerbin. One would expect that the KSC already has a lab and therefore there shouldn't be more science generated from the same sample in orbit.

If we want to properly replicate what you are referring to, we could simply create a new experiment that can only be done in the science lab.

false, some experiments can be done in space and not on Earth, that's why we have the ISS, so yes a science lab would make more science than a returned sample

[leomike]

@theJesuit Kerbalism dynamically calculates the volume and surface of parts that don't have a hard-coded configuration. This might be what is causing the issue although I can't confirm. One solution would be for you to hardcore the values in the part configuration. You can take a look at GameData/Kerbalism/System/Habitat.cfg for some clue how to do it (although you will need to figure out the volume and surface yourself).

@The-Doctor Some experiments are useful to do in a lab, but a temperature reading from Duna shouldn't yield more science if analyzed around the Mun or a surface sample from Minimus create more science if looked at in orbit of Kerbin rather than on the ground (which it does in stock). It would make more sense to have experiments that are conducted in the lab itself not simply an analysis of results from other experiments.

[theJesuit]

2 hours ago, leomike said:

@theJesuit Kerbalism dynamically calculates the volume and surface of parts that don't have a hard-coded configuration. This might be what is causing the issue although I can't confirm. One solution would be for you to hardcore the values in the part configuration. You can take a look at GameData/Kerbalism/System/Habitat.cfg for some clue how to do it (although you will need to figure out the volume and surface yourself).

Yup I've done that as the dynamical volume for the smallcentrifude is 115m³ and the surface area was 45m²!  I suspect that the torus shape is confusing to kerbalism, so I sorted out the cfg file myself using my own guesstimates .  However, I'll load the part in the editor, check its volume is sorted carry on building, but the surface area and volume amounts change as I'm mucking about with the vessel.  When I get time I'll start with a clean install and fresh kerbalism rather than the custom profile I keep mucking about with for my Simplex development.

Just wondering if anyone else has similar issues or just me.

Peace.