[1.3.0] Kerbalism v1.2.9

[podbaydoor]

3 hours ago, stoani96 said:

I know this mod is not yet updated to work with 1.2, but I still wanted to install it or better say, I DID install it (I tricked CKAN by altering the version in the readme.txt), but there are NO signs of the mod in the game.... does the module manager block incompatible mods?

I just wanted to fool around with the mechanics and the parts (as far as they work with this ksp version...)

Does anyone know, why there is no sign of the mod in the game?

Mods that interact with game mechanics (everything but the simplest part pack mods) will need to be compiled against the KSP DLL. 1.1.3-compatible Kerbalism will sit there trying to access functions that have changed or no longer exist in 1.2, so you're either getting errors behind the scenes, or the engine will just stop loading the mod when it realizes it was compiled against the wrong DLL.

[stoani96]

yeah, I already thought about something like this, but the strange thingi is, that are not even the new parts (e.g. the greenhouse(?))

[Rhedd]

On 10/30/2016 at 11:50 AM, ShotgunNinja said:

...That being said, all of these problems can be solved or hacked around. Eventually, many many months from now.

 

Very happy to hear you say that. I'd much rather see new features added AFTER we have a working updated version of this indispensable mod.

And if you were asking for opinions on the signal system, I agree with @podbaydoor. I think the new vanilla system is nice. No reason to replace it (at least not without the option not to) if Kerbalism can integrate with it.

[ShotgunNinja]

I'm adding new features and not merely porting it to the new KSP version. And I will keep adding features as long as I see fit. In fact, today I improved the greenhouse.

 

The crop now DIE if pressure drop below a threshold, if radiation goes above some level or if you keep it in the dark for too long. Yessss!

 

And the configurable-everything mania continue. Now is the turn of greenhouse optional components.

[stoani96]

I really appriciate and love your work, but adding features to a not compatible mod seems.... weird to me. (I say it is incompatible, because nobody (at leas not me) wants to play an older version of a this game....)

I would really love to play KSP with Kerbalism now, even without the new features. And no, downgrading KSP is not an option, because I dont want to risk a broken save after Kerbalism was updated for 1.2 and I can upgrade the savegame to 1.2

Edited November 2, 2016 by stoani96

[raxo2222]

8 minutes ago, stoani96 said:

I really appriciate and love your work, but adding features to a not compatible mod seems.... weird to me. (I say it is incompatible, because nobody (at leas not me) wants to play an older version of a this game....)

I would really love to play KSP with Kerbalism now, even without the new features. And no, downgrading KSP is not an option, because I dont want to risk a broken save after Kerbalism was updated for 1.2 and I can upgrade the savegame to 1.2

Let him finish features before he releases this mod for 1.2

[bpilgrim]

51 minutes ago, stoani96 said:

I really appriciate and love your work, but adding features to a not compatible mod seems.... weird to me. (I say it is incompatible, because nobody (at leas not me) wants to play an older version of a this game....)

I would really love to play KSP with Kerbalism now, even without the new features. And no, downgrading KSP is not an option, because I dont want to risk a broken save after Kerbalism was updated for 1.2 and I can upgrade the savegame to 1.2

I don't want to be rude, but it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. The fact is that there is an option for using the mod now (with 1.1.3). If you don't want to do that, then let the mod author do his thing as he likes.

[Drew Kerman]

1 hour ago, stoani96 said:

I really appriciate and love your work, but adding features to a not compatible mod seems.... weird to me.

it's because he was working on these features before the latest version. There's no point in doing extra work to make the current version of Kerbalism compatible with v1.2 or v1.2.1 when he's already working on a new version that will be compatible and that will also change a lot of things that are in the current version. And then no doubt people will report bugs in v1.2.1 while he's trying to complete the next version of Kerbalism. Pointless. Just sit back and wait for the awesome.

[stoani96]

If he adds the features AND makes the mod compatible in one "update", I'm absoluty fine! But I think it is pointless to make an "feature-update" and THEN work on compatibility with 1.2

is there a reason, why the planner only shows environment and vessel (in the newest version for 1.1.3 and with ksp 1.1.3)

[Drew Kerman]

39 minutes ago, stoani96 said:

THEN work on compatibility with 1.2

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at. The next release will be v1.2.x compatible as far as I understand

[stoani96]

Then I am (or will be ^^) happy

[ShotgunNinja]

That is correct, next release will be for KSP 1.2.1.

[seeingeyegod]

Any ETA on when this will be released for 1.2(1)?

[DarthGav]

3 hours ago, seeingeyegod said:

Any ETA on when this will be released for 1.2(1)?

Please stop asking that, we all want this mod updated, but asking when it will be done is just rather annoying and if I remember correctly is frowned upon by the moderators. It will come when its ready. 

[seeingeyegod]

oookay well that's not very helpful. I guess I will assume that means not anytime soon.

Edited November 7, 2016 by seeingeyegod

[Red Iron Crown]

9 hours ago, seeingeyegod said:

oookay well that's not very helpful. I guess I will assume that means not anytime soon.

Nor is it helpful to pester for a release date when the volunteer making and maintaining this mod is obviously still active and working on it. Please be patient, it will be done when it is done. 

[ShotgunNinja]

I've clarified the ETA for the next version in the OP.

 

Today I can reveal my plans for the science system. All of the following is still in flux so the end result may be different.

Data storage
Up until now there are 'files' stored per-vessel. These are the scripts (that nobody is really using I guess) and the other text files (like the notes). There is a problem in storing files per-vessel, that manifest where you dock vessel A and B and the files are merged in A, but then you undock and now all the files remain in A and B has none. This was kind of an acceptable defect up until now, but as in next version also science data files are stored, it is time to fix this issue. So I've added an HardDrive module, with limited storage capacity, that serve as the backend where to store the files. These HardDrives can also be put in read-only/read-write modes so the user can control to some degrees where new science data is stored. It will also implement the stock IScienceDataContainer interface, acting as a bridge with other stock-like science experiments that third party mods can have.

Data UI
I'm working on a simple UI to show the data in an HardDrive, and in all HD of a vessel. This UI will allow the user to see what's stored, to delete individual data files, to flag them for transmission home and, ideally, to transfer them to other HardDrives in the same vessel. I plan to leverage the new 'generic part-part transfer' that's been added in KSP 1.2 to implement that.

Crew/EVA reports
They will not be generating science data. Instead, when you press the button I'll show a randomly generated dialogue between the crew and mission control. I'm going to dig in NASA archives to understand the jargon they use and the overall style of their dialogues. This is probably the most useless feature ever, so is possible it doesn't make it in next version.

Soil samples
A new resource, 'Samples', will be added. It has mass. It can be transfered. When an EVA kerbal take a sample from a body surface, it get 1 unit of this resource. Each body (and maybe each biome, haven't decided yet) can only provide 1 unit of this resource at max. When the resource is recovered from a vessel, it generate Science Points. Eventually I could convert that new 'science container' part into a sample container, or maybe I could just generate storage capacity for sample resources on-the-fly in all vessels as required.

Science situations
A few months ago I found a way to add arbitrary 'tags' to stock science data, and to add new filters in the RnD science archives for those tags. This allow the creation of new 'situations'. The most obvious that are possible are: inside radiation belt of body XXX, outside the heliopause (interstellar space), very near the sun. I'm lacking some ideas here, suggest if you have some. Consider that is possible to use all the environment data (stock and added from this mod) to evaluate the condition.

Data definition
Each type of data is defined in a ConfigNode, describing things like: name, readings, if it is transmissible or not, etc. Then there are individual sub-nodes describing the situations where the data can be collected: amount collectible there, conversion rate to science, body/biome/situation and new conditions that define the situation. Some of these sub-notes are 'wildcard' ones, that get expanded in multiple ones at loading time. So for example one with 'body = *' will generate a copy of itself for each body, etc.

Sensors
Sensor is a module that is associated to a Data definition, and has a specific sampling rate. Sensors collect that data over time, even in background, and store the results in the vessel HardDrives. Even if they are called sensors, these will be used for all experiments too.

Labs
A lab is simply some part that can be configured to store one or more Sensors, using the Configure module. I'm going to convert a lot of parts in labs: the goo canister? an early game biologic lab; the material bay? a material science lab; the mobile lab? a lab, you get how it works. Then it is trivial to also add other interesting things such as a sensor slot in advanced probe cores, and other things of that nature.

Transmission
Data is flagged for transmission home, then it is sent home over time, even in background. A big refactor of how distance influence transmission speed is in progress. Also A* pathfinding is going to be used, with the cost function defined by EC required (or transmission speed, haven't decided yet). For these reasons and others, the signal system stay.

Interaction with other mods
This is still being designed. Ideally a third party science experiment using the stock system will simply do its thing (so not being collected over time, but instantaneously as usual). If it happen that is looking for a science data container, it find the HardDrive (that is implementing IScienceDataContainer). Same for transmission (that implement the IScienceDataTransmitter interface). So everything should still work, with the notable exception of taking data on EVA. I'm still thinking about how to solve that issue, maybe adding an HardDrive to EVA kerbals... we'll see.

[Nansuchao]

@ShotgunNinja This is brilliant and stunning!!!

 

About the new situations, they'll be tied about the portion of space they're in at the moment the data is taken. I don't know if this is possible or how much easy it would be, but some "new" and fairly realistic situation would be the shadow of a planet (relative to the sun) or instead the sunny side of a planet, in orbit or surface too. The poles of a planet too, they would be very interesting during a solar storm, for the interaction between the solar radiations and the planet's magnetic field. A similar thing would be for the moons of a gas giant like Jool. Gas giants are heat and radiations emitters, so from the orbit or sufarce of its moons some interesting experiment and results ca be taken.

Then, IMVVHO, there would be some experiments that can be made everytime and doesn't change so much regarding the situation, like Nehemia Enginering mod makes for many experiments.

[jo_jo_binks]

54 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

Crew/EVA reports

...This is probably the most useless feature ever

No, this is not. It is a brilliant idea, I think not only me use Kerbalism not only for challenge, but also for roleplaying.

 

[ShotgunNinja]

@Nansuchao Absolutely, sunlight state can be added to the conditions. For the poles, I can either have the biome condition accept a comma-separed list of biomes, or maybe allow a regex expression to be used, so that all pole biomes can be catched more or less.

With the way situations will be described, you can have generic ones (eg: in each body/biome/situation combinations), una-tantum ones (eg: do it anywhere, but only once) and very specific ones (eg: collect on jool orbit, outside the magnetopause, in shadow, ...).

All kind of data can be collected, as these are just strings. So list of real experiments can be added relatively easy.

[Nansuchao]

Beautiful! If you're interested, I can make some researches and list many real experiments done in pasts and presents missions.

[Gotmachine]

I should say that I'm a bit disappointed with the features you showed for the next version. What I like in Kerbalism is it's simplicity. It fits nicely in the stock gameplay, adding this new layer of gameplay with the varying life support mechanics. It essentially adds time as a major gameplay element and it does it well with a few parts and a few ressources. I enjoy it because it extend the challenge and possibilities.

But I'm worried about the direction this mod is taking. The "radiation update" added a bit of complexity. Now, the greenhouses have a special GUI (I truly hate that) and a ton of special requirements. Air pressure ? Allright, but what's the point ? Now this science overhaul. I don't know. Why not ? But why ? What does all these new modules and systems add that we didn't have before in stock ? Will the gameplay be better ? I don't want realism. Realism is for simulators, not for games. I understand that others want a realistic experience, but this wasn't the point of this mod as far as I know.

I'm not really happy with how science and career are done in stock, but what I think is lacking is an incentive to launch probes, rovers and kerbals in space. Currently, I can finish a career game in stock (or with kerbalism) in a few hours because how science is easy to get if you know how to grind it. I don't support your project about science data handling or soil samples as a resource. I only see added complexity and very minor improvements over the stock science storage and transmission system. I don't want more experiment/location combinations. I would prefer to have less of them (and from the science tweaks in Kerbalism, I think we agree). But you also said "things that generate science over time" and "labs". This is a great idea, because it fits with the purpose of the mod : time as a resource. Some ideas :

• Most experiments/labs need time and/or to be manned to produce data (incentive to stay some time at a destination)
• Landed and manned experiments/labs can be repeated multiple times automatically in the background (incentive to establish bases and stations)
• Soil analysis, generate science amounts based on distance traveled on a rover (incentive to send rovers)
• Very few instant experiments, limited to low science amounts (for a transition to probes/early game/flybys to manned missions/endgame/long stays)

[goldenpsp]

52 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

I should say that I'm a bit disappointed with the features you showed for the next version. What I like in Kerbalism is it's simplicity. It fits nicely in the stock gameplay, adding this new layer of gameplay with the varying life support mechanics. It essentially adds time as a major gameplay element and it does it well with a few parts and a few ressources. I enjoy it because it extend the challenge and possibilities.

But I'm worried about the direction this mod is taking. The "radiation update" added a bit of complexity. Now, the greenhouses have a special GUI (I truly hate that) and a ton of special requirements. Air pressure ? Allright, but what's the point ? Now this science overhaul. I don't know. Why not ? But why ? What does all these new modules and systems add that we didn't have before in stock ? Will the gameplay be better ? I don't want realism. Realism is for simulators, not for games. I understand that others want a realistic experience, but this wasn't the point of this mod as far as I know.

I'm not really happy with how science and career are done in stock, but what I think is lacking is an incentive to launch probes, rovers and kerbals in space. Currently, I can finish a career game in stock (or with kerbalism) in a few hours because how science is easy to get if you know how to grind it. I don't support your project about science data handling or soil samples as a resource. I only see added complexity and very minor improvements over the stock science storage and transmission system. I don't want more experiment/location combinations. I would prefer to have less of them (and from the science tweaks in Kerbalism, I think we agree). But you also said "things that generate science over time" and "labs". This is a great idea, because it fits with the purpose of the mod : time as a resource. Some ideas :

• Most experiments/labs need time and/or to be manned to produce data (incentive to stay some time at a destination)
• Landed and manned experiments/labs can be repeated multiple times automatically in the background (incentive to establish bases and stations)
• Soil analysis, generate science amounts based on distance traveled on a rover (incentive to send rovers)
• Very few instant experiments, limited to low science amounts (for a transition to probes/early game/flybys to manned missions/endgame/long stays)

I guess its a good thing it's not your mod then.

[Nansuchao]

@ShotgunNinja, I made the research and I was lucky. I found easily a beautiful list of the experiments NASA made on the ISS: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/experiments_by_name.html

There are hundreds of them, I'll try to list the most interesting ones (and the ones that fits better with Kerbalism) about crew experiments, enviromental experiments and others.

CREW EXPERIMENTS

Mental Representation of Spatial Cues During Space Flight: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/620.html

Role of Weightlessness on Metabolism: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/513.html

Drosophila Motility, Behaviour and Ageing: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/518.html

Factors Contributing to Food Acceptability and Consumption, Mood and Stress on Long-Term Space Missions: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1258.html

Biochemical Status of Humans in Long Duration Space Flight: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/431.html

Bone Densitometer Hardware Validation: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1148.html

A Simple In-flight Method to Test the Risk of Fainting on Return to Earth After Long-Duration Spaceflights: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/66.html

 

 

ENVIROMENTAL EXPERIMENTS

Advanced Astroculture: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/185.html

Aerosol Sampling Experiment: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2300.html

Alteino Long Term Cosmic Ray Measurements on board the International Space Station: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/91.html

Advanced Research Thermal Passive Exchange: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1911.html

Burning and Suppression of Solids: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/735.html

Generation of High Efficiency of Microorganisms for the Production of Preparations of Biodegradable Oil, Organophosphorus Material, Measures for the Protection of Plants, as well as, of Exopolysaddharides Uses in the Petroleum Industry: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/498.html

Effects of Space Radiation on Food Biocultures: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/512.html

CALorimetric Electron Telescope: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1074.html

Comm Delay Assessment: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/904.html

 

OTHER SCIENCE

Advanced Colloids Experiment-Heated: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1177.html

Study of the Stability of a Model of Self-Contained (Closed) Ecological System and Elements, Included in the Model in Microgravity: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/479.html

Biological Research in Canisters: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1082.html

Buzz Lightyear: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/853.html

 

[panarchist]

38 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

I guess its a good thing it's not your mod then.

That's kind of snarky.  I mean, it's true that it's ShotgunNinja's mod, but I don't think the poster was trying to be rude so much as direct.

@Gotmachine - the mod is licensed with a public-domain license and all of the source is on GitHub.  If you don't like the direction it's being taken in, fork it and create your own - or enlist others to help you create another fork.