Flag Taboo

[ToukieToucan]

http://imgur.com/a/AASzb

Pre PS. German meanies from the second world war got replaced by 'bad person'

 

Currently I'm using the К.С.П. commy flag and it got me thinking about how other flags would look.

The dutch flag and the toucan flag were more for fun, but what would it be like to command of a bad person instance a space program in a dystopian in a world, but planting bad person flags on the Mun would feel disrespectful (and probably is) and weird but also kind of interesting (not that I support bad person ideology but there's something to it that makes it strangely interesting to it.)

What do you think about 'edgy' flags? 

Edited April 24, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Rocket In My Pocket]

I think this is a pretty touchy subject lately, especially here in the states in regards to the Confederate flag.

Personally I don't have a problem with people flying whatever colors they like but...

Anything with a "Swastika" on it I would definitely consider to be in poor taste.

[ToukieToucan]

47 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I think this is a pretty touchy subject lately, especially here in the states in regards to the Confederate flag.

Personally I don't have a problem with people flying whatever colors they like but...

Anything with a "Swastika" on it I would definitely consider to be in poor taste.

True, seeing a flag with a swastika on it certainly isn't normal but it has something weird to it , perhaps how things could have turned out if the Germans would've won the war. Maybe that's one of the reasons why Wolfenstein is so interesting because it shows what this world could've turned into. 

 

Maybe it is something similar to morbid curosity, vsauce made a good video about it here: 

There is something disturbing and fascinating about all of this...

[Rocket In My Pocket]

I totally agree, If a WW2 game has an option to play as the Germans, I always find it to be a very interesting experience.

It's a nice change of pace to not play as the "good guys" for once. (Not that there weren't good people in Germany at that time.)

I think it's definitely a "Morbid Curiosity" or possibly even an ego trip if you are cast in the role of an all powerful dictator, we all like to imagine how we would conquer the world given our own country I think.

[moogoob]

Those "bad people" DID fund Wernher Von Braun who basically invented the ICBM and went on to be a founding member of NASA. In other words, in addition to all the atrocities etc. they did in fact contribute to the field of rocketry. You know, in order to blow up Londoners, but still. Von Braun thought his rockets could have gone on to greater uses.

Edited April 24, 2016 by moogoob

[cubinator]

Some people would get mad because they would think that because you are flying "that" flag on the Mun you support "their" ideologies. Obviously you don't, you are just considering what it would be like if the wars had been different and "they" were the ones planting flags on the Mun instead of the US. I think since it's a hypothetical world that is pretty detached from our own (seriously, you're flying little green people around in spaceships made from parts "found lying by the side of the road" on a planet 11 times smaller than Earth) it's fine. It's always interesting to consider how the world would be different if any particular event had gone differently. If Rome hadn't fallen. If the Wright Brothers never flew. If someone launched a nuke in the Cold War. If the K-PG impactor missed. If Theia missed. If Mars was still wet. I've got no problem with you planting a "bad person" flag on the Mun, imagining and wondering about a world in the hands of Adolf Kerman.

[ToukieToucan]

8 minutes ago, moogoob said:

Those "bad people" DID fund Wernher Von Braun who basically invented the ICBM and went on to be a founding member of NASA. In other words, in addition to all the atrocities etc. they did in fact contribute to the field of rocketry. You know, in order to blow up Londoners, but still. Von Braun thought his rockets could have gone on to greater uses.

Right, not saying they only made things for destruction and evilness but that is certainly what shadows the good things 'bad people' did,

[ToukieToucan]

4 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Some people would get mad because they would think that because you are flying "that" flag on the Mun you support "their" ideologies. Obviously you don't, you are just considering what it would be like if the wars had been different and "they" were the ones planting flags on the Mun instead of the US. I think since it's a hypothetical world that is pretty detached from our own (seriously, you're flying little green people around in spaceships made from parts "found lying by the side of the road" on a planet 11 times smaller than Earth) it's fine. It's always interesting to consider how the world would be different if any particular event had gone differently. If Rome hadn't fallen. If the Wright Brothers never flew. If someone launched a nuke in the Cold War. If the K-PG impactor missed. If Theia missed. If Mars was still wet. I've got no problem with you planting a "bad person" flag on the Mun, imagining and wondering about a world in the hands of Adolf Kerman.

I agree but it still feels weird to plant a swastika flag on the Mun and see tiny swastikas on the spacesuits, most of the events you named were pretty harmless (or atleast at the time): The Wright brothers didn't kill millions so that's a lot different than German meanies, you could also say that Romans killed millions and let people fight for their entertainment but it's easy to say "Oh that's just how people thought back then, they were used to the ideas and believes of that time and they were just primitive" but you could also apply that to German meanies.

[MiniMatt]

Worth remembering that "bad people" flags are subject to legal restrictions in several countries (I believe Germany & to a lesser extent France, and I think the old "rising sun" flag in Japan too). (*furtive wiki'ing reveals my latter assumption untrue, tho still caveat with "can have dodgy connotations")

Whilst events are still in living memory I believe a degree of sensitivity and erring on the side of caution is in order. Many of us will have elderly relatives with some very harrowing memories of that time.

Edited April 24, 2016 by MiniMatt
rising sun correction

[mcirish3]

 

5 minutes ago, MiniMatt said:

Worth remembering that "bad people" flags are subject to legal restrictions in several countries (I believe Germany & to a lesser extent France, and I think the old "rising sun" flag in Japan too).

Whilst events are still in living memory I believe a degree of sensitivity and erring on the side of caution is in order. Many of us will have elderly relatives with some very harrowing memories of that time.

Yes it may conjure up bad feelings.  But sweeping history under the rug will only ensure we make more of that kind of history.  Which is exactly what those countries are doing.

Edited April 24, 2016 by mcirish3

[cubinator]

7 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

I agree but it still feels weird to plant a swastika flag on the Mun and see tiny swastikas on the spacesuits, most of the events you named were pretty harmless (or atleast at the time): The Wright brothers didn't kill millions so that's a lot different than German meanies, you could also say that Romans killed millions and let people fight for their entertainment but it's easy to say "Oh that's just how people thought back then, they were used to the ideas and believes of that time and they were just primitive" but you could also apply that to German meanies.

If you don't want to do it that's fine. I'm just saying you can make your decision based on what you want, not what others will think of it. Considering what the German bad people would have done if they got their way might help give you a better understanding of the world as it is today.

[Choctofliatrio2.0]

I think you can use whatever flag you want in a save, but caution should be used when showing screenshots. People tend to not like talking about those folks who controlled Germany once and did bad things.

[mcirish3]

Like this?
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle

4 minutes ago, Choctofliatrio2.0 said:

I think you can use whatever flag you want in a save, but caution should be used when showing screenshots. People tend to not like talking about those folks who controlled Germany once and did bad things.

The irony in this of course is that the younger generations won't understand just how bad they were and may end up repeating it.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

17 minutes ago, mcirish3 said:

Like this?
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle

The irony in this of course is that the younger generations won't understand just how bad they were and may end up repeating it.

You must not ever watch the history channel.

No one is in any danger of not knowing what happened back then and no one is advocating "sweeping it under the rug."

All were saying is it would be in poor taste to fly their flag, and it would be disrespectful to all who suffered in that conflict, before and after.

[Renegrade]

Does Godwin's law need to be rephrased for our new forum software?

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Bad People or Adolf Kerman approaches 1"?   Not sure what the forum would mangle A.H. into (if at all), as there's no longer a preview button.

28 minutes ago, mcirish3 said:

The irony in this of course is that the younger generations won't understand just how bad they were and may end up repeating it.

The only thing we learn from history is that we learn NOTHING from history. 

 

[Scotius]

Actually swastika is an very old, perfectly innocent Indoeuropean symbol for a good luck charm. Or it was, until bad people got their filthy paws on it, and ruined this sign for everyone. So, yeah - my own polish hackles would rise immediately if i'd seen it displayed proudly anywhere. Most of the Europe has very good reason to react badly to it.

[Elthy]

I simply see no reason to display that damned flag in something else than a historcial context. While its kinda strange that its allowed in germany in movies that have a relation to the topic but not in computer games that have nazis in it (some got changed for the german market) i see no reason at all to have that flag in KSP at all, it wasnt even printed on the V2. Anyone having an urge to identify with bad person-germany should have payed more attention in history-class or read a bit aobut the stuff from relaiable sources...

[mcirish3]

1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

You must not ever watch the history channel.

No one is in any danger of not knowing what happened back then and no one is advocating "sweeping it under the rug."

All were saying is it would be in poor taste to fly their flag, and it would be disrespectful to all who suffered in that conflict, before and after.

Here in the US it really isn't a problem.  I was speaking more to the countries on the axis side of the war.  They actually do have a serious problem with wanting to sweep it under the rug.  Both in Germany and in Japan speaking about World war two is extremely taboo.   Not that I am advocating for the use of these flags in general.  I think people forget that context is everything, and are overly sensitive to individual images and words without consideration to context.

[Elthy]

28 minutes ago, mcirish3 said:

Both in Germany and in Japan speaking about World war two is extremely taboo.

Wut? You have never been to germany...

Its a major part of the history taught at school, afaik every pupil visites one of the concentration camp memorials during school (and often old people come to schools to tell about the time). History documentations about WW2 are all over the TV and almost everyone has grandparents that have some relation to the war (although that generation is slowly dying out. Denying the holocaust, showing the hitler-greeting or symbols of the nazis are punished by law.

 

Edit: Also abuot every week someone has to be evacuated to defuse a leftover bomb, its common to scan the ground before building anything in areas that have been bombed back then.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Elthy

[razark]

1 hour ago, Renegrade said:

Not sure what the forum would mangle A.H. into (if at all), as there's no longer a preview button.

I once got a warning on the forum for "discussing politics" for saying Hitler was a bad person, so there's no telling what the policy may be.

 

Personally, I think that if you want to fly a swastika flag, you should go right ahead and do it.  It lets the rest of us know to keep away from your nazi-loving ass.

[Nathair]

2 hours ago, mcirish3 said:

 But sweeping history under the rug will only ensure we make more of that kind of history.  Which is exactly what those countries are doing.

Denazification is about eliminating current usage, not whitewashing history. In Canada, just for example, the legality of the use of those flags depends entirely on context. In Germany itself public display is forbidden except for historical purposes.

1 hour ago, Elthy said:

I simply see no reason to display that damned flag in something else than a historcial context. While its kinda strange that its allowed in germany in movies that have a relation to the topic but not in computer games that have nazis in it (some got changed for the german market) i see no reason at all to have that flag in KSP at all, it wasnt even printed on the V2. Anyone having an urge to identify with bad person-germany should have payed more attention in history-class or read a bit aobut the stuff from relaiable sources...

The like button just isn't a strong enough response.

[WinkAllKerb'']

'sigh'

ie=UTF-8#q=history%20book

'sigh'

[Red Iron Crown]

There's a few things at play here:

First: Germany has laws forbidding the use of symbols from the National Socialists of WW2. We don't want to get the forum blocked from Germany.

Second: If we allow such symbols to be used here, a rather undesirable element takes it as OK here and proceed to descend (I have seen this on other forums).

Third: There just isn't any need. If you want to do an alternate history you can do so without swastikas.

Closing this one up.