1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

[Violent Jeb]

33 minutes ago, Tex_NL said:

Only thing they can do is ignore it, muddle along and hope it will pass.

Is this not the development MO?

I've never been part of an early access before this, never will again, but I've almost never seen squad pander to or directly acknowledge.. basically anything.

Sounds like a corporation funneling all the money to the top imo. But i also think this deserves its own thread.

I think the sad reality is that this game is the sims 4 and i'm waiting for cities skylines really. like people have said this game has sold the majority of its copies; its too late for much to change. One last huzzah to get the console approval stamp, and then push toys.

 

[Carraux]

22 minutes ago, Pax Kerbana said:

As much as I love KSP, I disagree. What we have now is excellent for what is actually complete. The "overall" of KSP isn't close to being complete, and no, they have not done a great job managing it.

If a major developer decided to make a game similar to KSP, it would be done in 2 years and released without major bugs. It would have everything we want in it, better graphics, and be fast to boot. Don't get me wrong... I love KSP and the little green frogmen (this by far is the secret to KSP's success).

Squad being inexperienced in game development isn't the bad thing. The bad thing is they haven't learned yet how to develop. I mean, 1.1.2 was just released and it crashed 20 minutes into my first game. Really?

I imagine the problem afflicting Squad is the same problem that hurts many companies. A small group of people at the top are so petrified of loosing control that they intentionally avoid hiring experienced people.

The never hired professionals, as far as I know. And I doubt that they ever will. This is harvester's baby. All and alone.

[rkman]

15 hours ago, Tankman101 said:

Ah yes, this whole witch hunt.

Ignoring the fact that the person sources 4chan

There is more to it than that: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/in_regards_to_pdtvs_post_damion_rayne_former_ksp/

[J.Random]

Hardly surprising.

[Tankman101]

45 minutes ago, rkman said:

There is more to it than that: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/in_regards_to_pdtvs_post_damion_rayne_former_ksp/

Oh cool, a person read one of my posts and then decided I didn't know what I was talking about.

[metalmouth7]

35 minutes ago, Tankman101 said:

Oh cool, a person read one of my posts and then decided I didn't know what I was talking about.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but r4m0n, in a response to the top comment, has some anonymous response from *current* Squad staff that corroborate what PDTV was saying on 4chan. Say what you will about 4chan as a source for accurate info, I'd not quickly accuse r4m0n of fabricating this kind of stuff.

Edited May 5, 2016 by metalmouth7

[herbal space program]

Wow, what a depressing thread. There is no reason that a game that is such a viral hit should languish in a half-finished state like this, and there is no reason that the people who developed it from the ground up shouldn't be amply rewarded for their efforts.

[N_Danger]

 My opinion on the alleged bad treatment at the work place(Squad) is that why would you put up with it? I'm not saying it didn't happen but you are a victim only if you allow someone to victimize you.  And I have walked off jobs when I though I was mistreated. You have to deal with the consequences but why eat crap? 

Now I don't have any experience with jobs like coding and what not with regards to pay, my jobs have all involved putting on work gloves at times. So being able to get over twice the minimum wage looks like a sweet deal from here.

 And layoffs happen. It sucks but there it is. I've always used them as opportunities to find a better situation. 

[kaesden]

The guy is claiming they paid him $2400 annual salary. Who in their right mind would accept a full time job that pays $200 a month?? I'm calling BS, I know the video game industry has issues, but no one in their right mind would accept a job working 40 hours a week for ten bucks a day. Literally any other job would pay better.

[Tankman101]

1 hour ago, metalmouth7 said:

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but r4m0n, in a response to the top comment, has some anonymous response from *current* Squad staff that corroborate what PDTV was saying on 4chan. Say what you will about 4chan as a source for accurate info, I'd not quickly accuse r4m0n of fabricating this kind of stuff.

I'm aware.  In fact I was aware even before it was posted here.

[severedsolo]

At least some of it is bogus.

Take this for instance from r4mon's sources:

Quote

Too tight control on information - the moderation team works under extreme pressures all the time due to Squad's insistence on silencing dissent in its forum and requiring quick action from the team when something goes bad in a live event (like the infamous DLC fiasco)

The fact that this thread even exists says that it's not happening. In the two weeks since 1.1 came out, I have seriously considered quitting the forums because of all the negativity.

As for the other stuff  I have to say, the post does really sound like a disgruntled employee. The pay is (allegedly) crap sure, but is it when you look at mexico? I don't know.

Having said that, I was just thinking the other week when Dr Turkey left, Squad sure do have a high turnover on staff.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

Having said that, I was just thinking the other week when Dr Turkey left, Squad sure do have a high turnover on staff.

It's indicative of a tight company culture where the right fit is important or it's indicative of unreasonable working conditions (pay, hours, terrible company culture, etc...)

I think in certain individual's cases you could make the argument that they were not the right fit for the company, but I'm betting on the latter in Turkey's case for sure.

Edited May 5, 2016 by regex

[Temeter]

23 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

At least some of it is bogus.

Take this for instance from r4mon's sources:

The fact that this thread even exists says that it's not happening. In the two weeks since 1.1 came out, I have seriously considered quitting the forums because of all the negativity.

As for the other stuff  I have to say, the post does really sound like a disgruntled employee. The pay is (allegedly) crap sure, but is it when you look at mexico? I don't know.

Having said that, I was just thinking the other week when Dr Turkey left, Squad sure do have a high turnover on staff.

I think it's not that hard to read between the lines. A lot of the stuff is still written in an angry tone, but there are a lot of rather realistic sounding claims behind it. Squad probably isn't a development hell or anything, but there are issues.

Btw, he said he can talk about this because his NDA was limited for 3 years. Well, I assume at least the part covering the things he said of course.

11 minutes ago, regex said:

It's indicative of a tight company culture where the right fit is important or it's indicative of unreasonable working conditions (pay, hours, terrible company culture, etc...)

I think in certain individual's cases you could make the argument that they were not the right fit for the company, but I'm betting on the latter in Turkey's case for sure.

Efficient management. Which isn't necessarily the nicest way to do things, and includes a lot of PR hiding things. The latter is why a threw the thing to the forum.

I mean really, the devs of KSP gotta be pretty damn invested into the game to deliver this awesome work considering all the crunch phases and stuff. Generally something you hear from the games industry, tho. A lot of independent developers actually went Indie because of working conditions, although there are also other reasons, like the lack of creativity. I mean, Indie isn't even Indie anymore, but an Industry for itself, so great is the pull.

5 hours ago, Randazzo said:

My abrasive, defensive answer was purely in scorn, actually.

As in, I hold this topic in utter contempt.

Don't want any more confusion.

Honestly, in that case i'd just recommend ignoring this kind of thread if it makes you feel that way. This is purely for people who are at least minimaly interested in the background, and it will most likely not change things.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Temeter said:

Efficient management. Which isn't necessarily the nicest way to do things, and includes a lot of PR hiding things.

Welcome to capitalism, only the bottom line matters.  Activism is great to change industries that rely on a continuing service model but it's not so good for changing the single-serving industries.  I highly doubt Squad will make a new game under the name Squad; if anything the team will split and reform under a new name.  Meanwhile the owners run off to try it again.

1 minute ago, Temeter said:

A lot of independent developers actually went Indie because of working conditions, although there are also other reasons, like the lack of creativity. I mean, Indie isn't even Indie anymore, but an Industry for itself, so great is the pull.

A coworker/friend once claimed that we're living in a golden age of video games because of the indie(ustry).  If you can dream up a game, someone out there is probably working on it.

[N_Danger]

50 minutes ago, kaesden said:

The guy is claiming they paid him $2400 annual salary. Who in their right mind would accept a full time job that pays $200 a month?? I'm calling BS, I know the video game industry has issues, but no one in their right mind would accept a job working 40 hours a week for ten bucks a day. Literally any other job would pay better.

 Remember this is also Mexico. As someone pointed out up thread the minimum wage in Mexico is 1000$ per year. And the cost of living is lower also, many United States citizens who are retirees move there to make the retirement checks go further.

Edited May 5, 2016 by N_Danger

[Temeter]

3 minutes ago, regex said:

Welcome to capitalism, only the bottom line matters.  Activism is great to change industries that rely on a continuing service model but it's not so good for changing the single-serving industries.  I highly doubt Squad will make a new game under the name Squad; if anything the team will split and reform under a new name.  Meanwhile the owners run off to try it again.

A coworker/friend once claimed that we're living in a golden age of video games because of the indie(ustry).  If you can dream up a game, someone out there is probably working on it.

There is also the other side, Indie it became it's own, very competetive industry. So everything you're trying to do is most like done by others, probably by more experienced people in a more mature form, and the might still just sell like 2k copies and fail.

That said, especially through platforms like steam (as much as i despise the drm part), there is a bigger audience for more types of games than ever before. Although tripple-A is pretty boring right now.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Temeter

[Guest]

Just now, Temeter said:

There is also the other side, the Indie it became it's own, competetive industry. So everything you're trying to do is most like done by others, probably by more experienced people in a more mature form, and the might still just sell like 2k copies and fail.

And?  Again, welcome to capitalism.

[metalmouth7]

52 minutes ago, kaesden said:

The guy is claiming they paid him $2400 annual salary. Who in their right mind would accept a full time job that pays $200 a month?? I'm calling BS, I know the video game industry has issues, but no one in their right mind would accept a job working 40 hours a week for ten bucks a day. Literally any other job would pay better.

He actually comments on this in his Youtube video - he's a retired veteran, so it was really nothing more than a supplemental cheque to go along with his disability payments. He was doing the job out of love for the KSP community, and the game itself.

[Temeter]

2 minutes ago, regex said:

And?  Again, welcome to capitalism.

The more things change, the more things stay the same.

 

 

Although there are probably a billion ways to refute that saying.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Temeter

[DChurchill]

20 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Btw, he said he can talk about this because his NDA was limited for 3 years. Well, I assume at least the part covering the things he said of course

Which is the part that bothers me most. Anyone who carries a grudge that long is usually the type that creates and thrives on drama.

I'm not trying to suggest that squad is good or evil with ANY of this. I do not have enough information to make that case one way or another. Yes, I can read between the lines, and that would be speculation on my part, just like anyone else who comments on it with no first hand knowledge of it. I dunno why I'm even getting into this much of the drama by participating in this thread, other than to be the voice of Meh. Someone has to has to speak for the apathetic. They're certainly not going to do it for themselves.

Edited May 5, 2016 by DChurchill

[Temeter]

4 minutes ago, DChurchill said:

Which is the part that bothers me most. Anyone who carries a grudge that long is usually the type that creates and thrives on drama.

I'm not trying to suggest that squad is good or evil with ANY of this. I do not have enough information to make that case one way or another. Yes, I can read between the lines, and that would be speculation on my part, just like anyone else who comments on it with no first hand knowledge of any of it. I dunno why I'm even getting into this much of the drama by participating in this thread, other than to be the voice of Meh. Someone has to has to speak for the apathetic.

Idk, his claims aren't very special or anything, but seems believable when you take out his more emotional perspective.

Biggest thing that convinced me to take it a bit more serious were other modders and ex-devs supporting his view tho. Nova Silisko said this doesn't contradict his own experience before, and some modders, like the mechjeb dev did say he talked with people at Squad and it sounds believable.

 

Thing is, there was actually a part in the devnotes where they wrote about how there are crunch phases and stuff. Because of this, I'd say SQUAD is a bit more honest than he makes it look like, tho.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Temeter

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Thing is, there was actually a part in the devnotes where they wrote about how there are crunch phases and stuff. Because of this, I'd say SQUAD is a bit more honest than he makes it look like, tho.

At this time.  I also feel like they've hired some pretty cool people who are experienced with the codebase.  I doubt two guys living on the East Coast U.S. (that I know of) would take crap paying jobs considering the standard of living.  I can afford to take a programming job at much less than the national average because living where I am is fairly cheap; I own a house and am doing quite well, if I do say so myself.  But my sister moved out east from Oregon pretty recently and, while her pay is definitely higher, the costs are similarly higher.

Something to keep in mind when discussing salaries.

I feel like Squad has gotten much better at communication lately and I hope that trend continues.  For a long time drama was the name of the game because of the tight-lipped development and planning process.

[Temeter]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

At this time.  I also feel like they've hired some pretty cool people who are experienced with the codebase.  I doubt two guys living on the East Coast U.S. (that I know of) would take crap paying jobs considering the standard of living.  I can afford to take a programming job at much less than the national average because living where I am is fairly cheap; I own a house and am doing quite well, if I do say so myself.  But my sister moved out east from Oregon pretty recently and, while her pay is definitely higher, the costs are similarly higher.

Something to keep in mind when discussing salaries.

I feel like Squad has gotten much better at communication lately and I hope that trend continues.  For a long time drama was the name of the game because of the tight-lipped development and planning process.

Honestly, I never really noticed that much drama. There was a bunch of mostly pointless negativity at times, but not much in the near future i think? Then again, I took a bit of brake for a while cause i was a bit burned out on KSP.

I've definitly seen Squad changing their communication policies over time, tho. Especially with the huge steam release they got a bit more carefull with what they said.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Temeter

[DChurchill]

16 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Idk, his claims aren't very special or anything, but seems believable when you take out his more emotional perspective.

Biggest thing that convinced me to take it a bit more serious were other modders and ex-devs supporting his view tho. Nova Silisko said this doesn't contradict his own experience before, and some modders, like the mechjeb dev did say he talked with people at Squad and it sounds believable.

Thing is, there was actually a part in the devnotes where they wrote about how there are crunch phases and stuff. Because of this, I'd say SQUAD is a bit more honest than he makes it look like, tho.

Which is like a vector. I don't have a problem with the direction, it's the magnitude. The direction is believable, and it's also believable in any direction, but I doubt the magnitude is anything like what he's claiming, because of what I said in my previous post. He posted a video on youtube the day after the big dust up. Then waits until his 3 year NDA expires and posts on 4chan about "teh debil squad" and how he wants to hurt their sales. Sorry, that screams drama to me. YMMV That's my read between the lines.

Edited May 5, 2016 by DChurchill

[Temeter]

Just now, DChurchill said:

Which is like a vector. I don't have a problem with the direction, it's the magnitude. The direction is believable, and it's also believable in any direction, but I doubt the magnitude is anything like what he's claiming, because of what I said in my previous post. He posted a video on youtube the day after the big dust up. Then waits until the day after his 3 year NDA expires and posts on 4chan about "teh debil squad" and how he wants to hurt their sales. Sorry, that screams drama to me. YMMV That's me read between the lines.

You're trying to read his motivations, I'm trying to read what value is there in his claims?