Hello and Help!

[thomj084]

Hi EliteKerbalPlayers!

My name is Joel Thomas and I'm a noob to the KSP fraternity . Introduction aside, I was hoping the mighty KSP community can help me with a little project that I'm trying to achieve in Career mode. I want to establish a lunar base on the surface on the Mun and use this project as a testing ground for my future planetary base missions, primarily Duna. The project is called "Lyra" Lunar Base Deployment System. 

 

The inspiration came from the now defunct "Constellation" program that NASA originally proposed to go to Mars. Through this system, I want to deploy my Mun base which I affectionately named "Ares 1-A Mun Base Plan". This is shown below:

 

So what's the problem? Well, I have the following issues that I was hoping the community could give me advice/ ideas to address them properly. These issues are:-

1.  How will I land these modules on a planet safely and efficiently?
2.  How do I launch these modules into space efficiently and effectively? 
3.  Would it be ideal if I launch these modules into space, establish an orbit around the Mun and dock with some form of "central" station to land these things?
4.  Any other ideas/ advice?

Many Thanks,

Joel (a.k.a Talisman)

 

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by thomj084
Spelling mistakes; Update Image (Mun Base Plan);

[Starhawk]

Hello Joel and welcome to the KSP forums!

That looks like a very interesting and ambitious project.

You mentioned that you are fairly new to KSP and your questions are quite general, so I'll give quite general answers.

1. You will probably want to use some sort of space crane to land and drop them on the surface of another celestial body.
2. You really just need a rocket underneath and probably a fairing to help manage aerodynamics during ascent.
3. I think it will work better to land them separately and then try to attach them to each other on the surface.
4. You will probably need to find a very flat place in order to dock those together on the surface.

Glad to have you aboard.  I hope your project goes well.

Happy landings!

[thomj084]

Hey Starhawk,

I'm not a complete noob (had the game since 0.18 myself ) but I'll be more specific with my problems.

1) I tried the space crane idea but my design never worked because when I use the winch from the KAS mod, it does not want to lower the payloads on the ground.

2) Cheers about the Fairings although I'm already good about it.

3) I was thinking about the same way for landing each module separately. But it devilishly expensive!

4) I intend to find a good landing spot (lost count on my Mun and Minimus landings) and even establish a landing probe/rover on Duna.

Many thanks for your kind words for the forums.

Joel

[Starhawk]

42 minutes ago, thomj084 said:

I tried the space crane idea but my design never worked because when I use the winch from the KAS mod, it does not want to lower the payloads on the ground.

Try to design such a system that doesn't use KAS or a winch.  Instead, mount your base module low underneath your spacecrane and attach it with a docking port and a strut.  Then you can land the spacecrane and simply disconnect the node on the docking port, allowing the module to drop to the surface.

Hope this helps.

Happy landings!

[Zhetaan]

Your design has docking ports on each module; if you make sure the port is over the centre of mass, could you make a crane with a docking port instead of a KAS winch?  If you use girders to extend your landing struts (or instead of landing struts), you could land the crane on the Mun and undock, dropping each module a fraction of a metre to the ground.  The wheels you have are quite strong.

The crane would be expensive, but you'd only need one.  Just be sure you land the ISRU first so you don't have to haul prohibitive amounts of fuel.  If the lacking stability of the docking port is a concern, remember that KAS also has struts.  The cheapest way to put this together will likely be to have a dedicated tug module to ferry the modules from Kerbin to the Mun and then use the crane only for landing, but you're still going to have quite a few launches just to get it all in the sky.

/Ninja'd by @Starhawk

Edited May 24, 2016 by Zhetaan

[thomj084]

@Starhawk Thanks for the heads up! I shall attempt this design.

@Zhetaan I couldn't stop loling when you "Ninja'd"  in your post. The crane design you stated was my first ever design (through the use of Infernal Robotics) but the issue I had with the design was it does not have the strength or "weight" to stay put  because when to say I grab one of the modules with the crane, the crane flips over whenever I tested it on KSC. I do wish there were some more cool modules that were available in Infernal Robotics plus a better crane design from my part which is effective, capable, strong and reliable.

Thanks for the posts though, I really appreciate it!

Joel

[Zhetaan]

In that case, you can always add more weight.  I love Infernal Robotics: it's one of my very favourite mods.  But if weight is your problem, then you may consider that something bulkily stock may be the answer to your problem.  A skycrane, by design, is not particularly heavy, but there's nothing preventing you from making a heavier one.  Maybe incorporate ore tanks into the legs, for example.  Of course, you sacrifice efficiency doing that, but the crane that works is always going to be more efficient than the one that does not.

[WellItExplodedAgain]

Hello Joel,

 

To get your crafts in space, it would be cheaper to launch multiple things at once. I recommend to launch everything in LKO then launch another craft to tug everything around to your destination. This project looks like it is going to be expensive. Good luck! 

[thomj084]

Hey @WellExplodedAgain,

Fortunately, I have made around 5million within my career mode (thanks to my space station, telescope, landings on Mun, Minimus and a pass by of Duna in LKO and Geosynchronous) . I've made a design of a crane that acts as a tug for the landed modules and allows it to be taken off the carrier modules which has these base modules (2 modules packed in a container fairings which will be deployed once it's on the ground). I'm still messing about with these designs. I'll update on this situation here 

Thanks,

Joel

 

[thomj084]

To expand a bit more about my situation, I have created an image below on how I intend to develop the base:

 

My problem is I'm not sure how to launch, land and deploy the CNS and the other modules? I tried my crane design with infernal robotics and there was some worrying game breaking mechanics + explosions

 

Hence, can anyone give me some advice now that my space crane and my mobile crane ideas both failed?

[Zhetaan]

Hmm.

...

... Hmm.

Launching isn't really a problem.  Your central module looks as though it can go on the nose of a rocket without too much trouble, and the habitation module looks as though it can be paired with another bottom-to-bottom and sent that way, assuming the assembly is light enough to launch.  I'd suggest making a central beam of some sort and attaching the modules to the middle with separators; it keeps your launcher's orbital stage in one piece and avoids the problem of balance.  For any other problems with launching, I'd suggest looking at @Geschosskopf's topics on the subject.  I don't know whether he's the definitive expert on unconventional lifters, but he knows a lot more than I do and brings photos to prove it.

Deployment doesn't look to be too concerning, either.  Your modules are on rover wheels and have power; so long as you have sun, the biggest problem will be getting the docking ports to line up correctly.  That can be more problematic than it seems, but aside from telling you to land somewhere flat and to make sure that all of your wheels bear roughly equivalent weight (so the suspension keeps the ports at the same height), there isn't much else I can do to help.

Landing is going to be interesting without a crane.  My first thought is to attach fuel tanks and engines to the sides via the same docking ports you will use to attach your modules.  This is something that will very much need to be assembled in space, so strutting, if needed, will need to be KAS-based.  You can use a standard bottom-mounted descent stage, then decouple and switch to the side engines for final landing, especially for the central module.  Getting rid of the lander engines is simply a matter of running up the TWR to .7 so and undocking.  Make certain you use gimballing engines and a lot of roll authority or else minor misalignments in docking will make you spin.  Your longer modules will need even more roll authority to keep from falling over.  Landing on the wheels will require putting the docking port right at the bottom of the fuel tank so the engine can clear the ground.  Keeping a low centre-of-mass is all-important here, too, so you may benefit more from using a wide stack of short tanks than a tall tank.  Getting all of this into orbit and to the Mun is going to be utterly insane, which, if nothing else, will give you a deep appreciation for why we've not built a real-life moonbase yet.

Alternatively, you can install Extraplanetary Launchpads and build it all in place.  But I suspect that you're more interested in the challenge.

Also, I'd like to compliment you on your design drawings.  You put more care into the presentation than I've put into some of my missions.

[thomj084]

@Zhetaan Thanks for your compliments, I really appreciate it. Could you provide some examples of @Geschosskopf works that might aid me in this project?

Thanks,

Joel

Edited May 25, 2016 by thomj084
Forgot something important to write;

[Zhetaan]

Flying on Duna in 1.0.4

It's an older thread for an older version of KSP, but it's got some great ideas about launchers in the section entitled 'Launching from Kerbin'.

The Outer Plants Traveling Circus

Specifically, look at Episodes Two, Nine, and Ten.  Nine specifically has a winged rover that, though not precisely what you're looking for to land on the Mun, nevertheless offers a few ideas for attachment and so forth to get unconventional shapes off the ground (and back on the ground somewhere else).  You'd likely be best off scrapping the wings in favour of beams with engines on the ends, but it's your ship.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Zhetaan

[thomj084]

Truly appreciate this info Zhetaan, I shall get back to you about the situation. Thanks!

[Dman979]

Your CNS looks fairly balanced around the vertical axis. My suggestion is to attach another docking port on top of the docking port. To that, add some fuel tanks, solar panels, a probe core, SAS, 2 radially mounted Monoprop tanks, RCS, and radially mounted engines. This thing will act as a kind of tug for your modules.

On the bottom of each module, add some folding landing legs. Space them so that when they deploy, they are linearly placed along the ventral side. Only one should touch the ground at a time. To form a tripod, use the wheels (set on brakes, of course).

After you land the first module, fly your tug back to munar orbit. Rendezvous with the next module, and dock. Fill the tanks with fuel, and burn to the surface. When you are almost at the ground, and moving slowly, deploy the legs. They should all stick out along the underside of the module. Land the module on a leg and two wheels. It should be vertical or almost vertical. To set it on the ground, close the first landing leg, and give a short sideways burst with the RCS. You should fall onto the second leg, and the next two wheels. Now might be a good time to remove that tug. Fly it away a safe distance, and land it.

Keep raising the gear until it's only the 4 wheels on the ground. Then drive the module over, and dock.

Also, Welcome Aboard!

[thomj084]

Much appreciated Dman979 and Thank you!

[Dman979]

By the way, it would be nice if you posted a mission report letting us know how this turned out. I'd love to see what you go with!

[thomj084]

@Dman979 It's quite wonderful to see people are interested in my project. I'll be more than happy to create a detailed report with nice pictures to show you about the mission

[thomj084]

So, after several design failures and near destruction of KSC. I have finally developed a final prototype that can successfully land all the modules including the CHS and Habitation module. I present you...

 

Even though I'm really close to deploying my Lunar Base Deployment Mission or "Lyra" here is my next problem. After I land my modules, I want to obviously undock from my sky crane. However, the sky crane goes berserk (as expected) and blow up somewhere else. My dilemma is that I would love to reuse my sky crane  without it being blown up (so basically I want to control  the crane rather than losing control) so I can save a lot of money as the current cost for the sky crane is under 20K which is quite amazing. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Joel 

Edited May 26, 2016 by thomj084
Written Format

[Dman979]

Add a probe core.

[thomj084]

That's the thing Dman979, I already have, yet I do not gain control of the system when I undock the crane from the payload.

[Dman979]

2 hours ago, thomj084 said:

That's the thing Dman979, I already have, yet I do not gain control of the system when I undock the crane from the payload.

Hmm, really? On the crane? I've never seen that happen before.

Can you do a quick test for me?

Land the crane/module, undock, and switch to the crane. What color is the light at the bottom left of the screen? Green, or purple?

[thomj084]

Green, but I realize my mistake. I made the crane from the Hab / CHM Module so when I undock I wasn't controlling the crane, I was controlling the payload all this time, lol!

[Dman979]

17 minutes ago, thomj084 said:

Green, but I realize my mistake. I made the crane from the Hab / CHM Module so when I undock I wasn't controlling the crane, I was controlling the payload all this time, lol!

We all make PEBCAKs sometimes.

Now, about that mission report?

[thomj084]

soon  soon...