Stock Communications System: What's the Word Now?

[Geschosskopf]

About a year ago, we learned that Squad intended to add some sort of stock communications relay system and there was a big discussion about it in this thread.  Now this feature has been delayed until at least 1.2, which itself won't come out for a while due to the need to further patch 1.1.  So basically, a lot of time has passed, and a fair amount more will pass before we see this, so a lot could have changed.  I haven't heard much mention of either the merits or the details of this feature in a while, so I'd like to learn where we stand now.

Personally, although I've been using either RT or AntennaRange in all my games for the past couple years, I wish Squad would make this an official mod like Asteroid Day instead of an unavoidable stock feature.  Or at least include an option to disable this feature entirely.  This is because previous attempts to make so-called "realism" mods stock have not made anybody happy.  I point to the continued existence of DRE and FAR despite stock now having reentry heating and quasi-"realistic" aerodynamics.  Those who used DRE and FAR before 1.0 still use them now because they think they're better than stock, and those who didn't use either mod didn't want the stock versions they're now stuck with anyway.  I foresee exactly the same thing happening with the communications feature.  Those who currently use RT or AR will keep using the mods and those who don't want to be bothered with such things will be forced to anyway.

There is also the little matter that implementing a stock communications network requirement will likely break ALL existing saves.  It will certainly break those of everybody who doesn't currently have a network.  And it will probably break those who do have networks because the stats of antennae they're currently using will certainly change, and their models will probably change and no longer fit their vehicles (rather like what happened with wings and the Mk1 cockpit).  So once again, nobody will be happy.  In fact, because I see game breakage as a near-certainty, I'm already unhappy because I see no point in starting a serous 1.1.x game with the knowledge the communications system will destroy it in 1.2.

But all the above is based on limited and old data.  What do we know about the impending stock system today?

[Just Jim]

I wouldn't mind seeing this become an official mod.  If it were to become one, and doesn't break existing games, I would definitely consider using it.  It sounds like fun.  
But to be safe, I've been preparing for the day if and when this might be implemented in the stock game, and have quiet a system of satellites already in place.  

 

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, Just Jim said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this become an official mod.  If it were to become one, and doesn't break existing games, I would definitely consider using it.  It sounds like fun.  
But to be safe, I've been preparing for the day if and when this might be implemented in the stock game, and have quiet a system of satellites already in place.  

 

I'm really hoping that it remains an optional feature. Already I am straining my system resources to play KSP with only 25 mods. This feature would mean even less mods. I just do not have the ability to run out and buy a monster system to play this game. As it stands, Cities: Skylines most recent update has now made it unplayable on my system; it would be a shame of KSP followed suit.

 

[Kerbart]

Especially now that RT has finally an on/off button (so your career isn't wrecked when RT stops working after an update). I hope they implement the delay as well, that's half the fun for me about RemoteTech. But I'm under the impression they won't. 

Still, I would welcome it in stock; it would remove a lot of the "heavy lifting" away from RT (which is always good for a mod; less code means less bugs)

[Starhawk]

Hmmm.  I was under the impression that it might still appear for 1.1.3.  I suppose that all depends on how the bug-squashing goes.

I expect big problems for my save since I have never got into the habit of installing antennae on my remote-controlled craft.  I suppose if I start swapping the ships out now, I might get them all decommissioned and replaced before that feature is added. 

Happy landings!

[pandaman]

I expect this will be 'on' by default, but I would be very very surprised if it didn't come with an on/off toggle and 'difficulty' settings.  Actually I do seem to recall an article saying that this would be the case

[severedsolo]

17 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Those who used DRE and FAR before 1.0 still use them now because they think they're better than stock, and those who didn't use either mod didn't want the stock versions they're now stuck with anyway.

Not really. Although I used DRE, I never used FAR, but felt the old atmophere lacked something. Now I find stock strikes a happy medium for me.

Your main point is a good one though, especially the one about breaking existing saves. There is a solution though, - probe cores can get a new Module - perhaps named "ModuleRemoteControl" (or something like that) - existing probes will be missing this, and work exactly as they did before, whereas newly launched probes will have to be connected to the network.

[Geschosskopf]

40 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Especially now that RT has finally an on/off button (so your career isn't wrecked when RT stops working after an update). I hope they implement the delay as well, that's half the fun for me about RemoteTech. But I'm under the impression they won't. 

Still, I would welcome it in stock; it would remove a lot of the "heavy lifting" away from RT (which is always good for a mod; less code means less bugs)

Whatever floats your boat.  Personally, I set my space program in the near future, not the distant past, so my probes are hugely autonomous, needing nor more than an occasional general order.  Therefore, I don't use signal delay.  I sincerely hopes that if the stock system imposes some sort of delay or otherwise impaired control of probes, that it makes this an option like it is in AR.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Starhawk said:

Hmmm.  I was under the impression that it might still appear for 1.1.3.  I suppose that all depends on how the bug-squashing goes.

I expect big problems for my save since I have never got into the habit of installing antennae on my remote-controlled craft.  I suppose if I start swapping the ships out now, I might get them all decommissioned and replaced before that feature is added. 

Happy landings!

I doubt putting antenna on your ships will help.  Any sort of communications system necessarily must impose some limits on the ranges of various antennae.  Last I heard, the new system was going to include some huge new antenna parts for interplanetary relays.  This implies that none of the existing antennae can talk that far.  Thus, even if you put 88-88s or Hi-Gains on all your ships, they might not be able to phone home from Duna.

This is the main reason why I'm not going to do anything serious until this system is upon us.  Because it will include new antennae with capabilities beyond all the antennae we currently have, there is no way to design for the system in advance, you can only react to it once it's here.

 

36 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

Not really. Although I used DRE, I never used FAR, but felt the old atmophere lacked something. Now I find stock strikes a happy medium for me.

Your main point is a good one though, especially the one about breaking existing saves. There is a solution though, - probe cores can get a new Module - perhaps named "ModuleRemoteControl" (or something like that) - existing probes will be missing this, and work exactly as they did before, whereas newly launched probes will have to be connected to the network.

Well, if the system is all about transmitting science like AR, then this won't be a problem anyway.  But if it's about controlling probes like RT, then I don't want it at all.  Why force everybody to use probes left over from the 1940s instead letting them set their games in the present or future?

Edited June 2, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Nathair]

1 hour ago, Geschosskopf said:

But if it's about controlling probes like RT, then I don't want it at all.  Why force everybody to use probes left over from the 1940s instead letting them set their games in the present or future?

 

This! Except exactly the other way around.

[Geschosskopf]

33 minutes ago, Nathair said:

This! Except exactly the other way around.

I count this as a vote for either options (probably MANY options) or having this an official mod instead of really stock.

[Nathair]

12 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

I count this as a vote for either options (probably MANY options) or having this an official mod instead of really stock.

I would love to see RT as an "official mod". Getting it up to speed with this latest update has been problematic and I don't really play without it.

[Geschosskopf]

26 minutes ago, Nathair said:

I would love to see RT as an "official mod". Getting it up to speed with this latest update has been problematic and I don't really play without it.

RT, besides condemning you to the Stone Age in terms of probe autonomy, has another fundamental flaw.  It relies on satellites being placed with more precision than is possible due to the inherent errors in KSP.  Especially now with 1.1.2's orbital decay problem, but even before now, and still in the future once orbital decay is fixed.. Eventually, and it really doesn't take that long, you end up having to spend all your time tweaking your satellites' orbits due to accumulated errors, instead of flying missions.

RT is only really playable if you never go further from home than Minmus, maybe Duna or Eve for 1-and-done things.  But beyond that, especially trying to have multiple missions going on at once, it's a resounding "no".  You can't just warp ahead 3 years for your Jool expedition to arrive.  If you do, you won't have a functioning network when it gets there.  So you have to stop every week or so of the trip and tweak many satellite orbits, and that keeps the Jool expedition from ever getting there.  And that's just Jool, which is relatively close.  If you've got OPM, don't even think about it.  And forget building up any permanent space empire on several planets.

RT is fun a few times in that it makes you think through, design, and build things you've never done before.  And along the way you'll probably learn more about orbits types.  But once you put in all that time and learned all that stuff, you soon discover it was a waste of time because of inherent KSP errors.  You can't put satellites exactly where you want them most of the time and even if you do, they don't stay there.for any significant amount of time.  So bottom line, RT not only unrealistically dumbs down your probes, it also puts harsh limits on where you can go and what you can do even with crewed missions due to its high maintenance requirements..

Edited June 2, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Nathair]

19 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

RT, besides condemning you to the Stone Age in terms of probe autonomy, has another fundamental flaw.

 

 

Gee, maybe you shouldn't play with it then.

Meanwhile, I'm having fun...

[keeper]

I started on KSP again since i heard the new engine. Lovely stuff. I did briefly remember what they were saying regarding the antenna when i was building stuff. I guess that was a load of talk over nothing. I was kind of relieved actually. But was mostly looking forward to setting up relays here and there.

[pandaman]

I'm not going far afield, or doing too much yet.  Partly due to the wheel and landing bugs and partly because I don't want to find that the communication network thing stuffs everything up when it arrives (because I do want to use it).  I'm making sure I put at least a small antenna on everything that I plan on sticking around, then at least I should be able to use it again once I get a proper network set up, even it it has some 'downtime' whilst I get everything in place.

[Andem]

41 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

RT, besides condemning you to the Stone Age in terms of probe autonomy, has another fundamental flaw.  It relies on satellites being placed with more precision than is possible due to the inherent errors in KSP.  Especially now with 1.1.2's orbital decay problem, but even before now, and still in the future once orbital decay is fixed.. Eventually, and it really doesn't take that long, you end up having to spend all your time tweaking your satellites' orbits due to accumulated errors, instead of flying missions.

RT is only really playable if you never go further from home than Minmus, maybe Duna or Eve for 1-and-done things.  But beyond that, especially trying to have multiple missions going on at once, it's a resounding "no".  You can't just warp ahead 3 years for your Jool expedition to arrive.  If you do, you won't have a functioning network when it gets there.  So you have to stop every week or so of the trip and tweak many satellite orbits, and that keeps the Jool expedition from ever getting there.  And that's just Jool, which is relatively close.  If you've got OPM, don't even think about it.  And forget building up any permanent space empire on several planets.

RT is fun a few times in that it makes you think through, design, and build things you've never done before.  And along the way you'll probably learn more about orbits types.  But once you put in all that time and learned all that stuff, you soon discover it was a waste of time because of inherent KSP errors.  You can't put satellites exactly where you want them most of the time and even if you do, they don't stay there.for any significant amount of time.  So bottom line, RT not only unrealistically dumbs down your probes, it also puts harsh limits on where you can go and what you can do even with crewed missions due to its high maintenance requirements..

Huh. It's funny, I've never had any of those problems with Remotetech, I always feel like probes are overpowered without it. Perhaps you should just avoid Remotetech if it makes the game unplayable for you.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

4 hours ago, Just Jim said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this become an official mod.  If it were to become one, and doesn't break existing games, I would definitely consider using it.  It sounds like fun.  
But to be safe, I've been preparing for the day if and when this might be implemented in the stock game, and have quiet a system of satellites already in place.  

 

Yes. Microsats deployed by SSTO's sit in 80km orbits - 22 of them!

[Just Jim]

4 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

I'm really hoping that it remains an optional feature. Already I am straining my system resources to play KSP with only 25 mods. This feature would mean even less mods. I just do not have the ability to run out and buy a monster system to play this game. As it stands, Cities: Skylines most recent update has now made it unplayable on my system; it would be a shame of KSP followed suit.

Agreed!  Being optional would be better, either by making it a mod, or maybe including some sort of on/off feature in the settings menu.

6 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Yes. Microsats deployed by SSTO's sit in 80km orbits - 22 of them!

lol.... I'd have to stop and count all of mine, I went a little crazy early in my career with satellites to make fast cash.  I have 8 now in a geosynchronous network... probably 30 or so more scattered about the solar system

Edited June 2, 2016 by Just Jim

[adsii1970]

2 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Agreed!  Being optional would be better, either by making it a mod, or maybe including some sort of on/off feature in the settings menu.

I like the idea of an on/off feature in the settings menu. I just hope that KSP doesn't become one of those games that by the time they fix the bugs that exist plus dump the extra stuff on us (and possibly creating more bugs) that the game becomes unplayable for those of us on older systems. I also see nothing wrong with an expansion pack idea that would add this feature.

[SorryDave]

My understanding was that the feature being added will be used to give a science buff, not using a relay will not impact probes.

 

[Bloody_looser]

Oh, I remember the whine about atmospheric heating. Those were the glorious days of raging butthurt flowing through the internets.

 

So, implementation of comms systems can have several scenarios:

1. It's too easy => whine, whine waste of development time, I'll use mod X.

2. It's too hard, with delay and occlusions => whine, whine you killed my fav game Squid! Gimme back my 5 bucks paid 4 years ago.

3. It's an official mod => whine, whine mod X is better / 'it should be stock' movement emerges

4. It's stock => whine, whine make it a mod / [combination of the first two points]

 

Well, Squad announced it as an upcoming stock feature. It's mostly done, antennae modelled (their models have caused butthurt sparked discussion already), and the whole concept is ready. Yep, IIRC it'll be toggleable and will depend on difficulty settings.

IMO it should be stock. It won't break (technically at least) any savedgames.

Spoiler

'l337 r0ck37 5c13n71575' stuffing a kerbal into mk1 for 10 years can and putting a whip antenna on every single craft for so-called 'efficiency' should suffer anyway.

 

[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, Bloody_looser said:

 

  Hide contents

'l337 r0ck37 5c13n71575' stuffing a kerbal into mk1 for 10 years can and putting a whip antenna on every single craft for so-called 'efficiency' should suffer anyway.

 

See, this is the type of attitude I really hate to see in the community.  What folks do in their own games is no concern of anybody else, yet there are folks here who think their personal way of playing is superior to everybody else's and want to force their ways on others "for their own good".  I find this such self-righteousness highly offensive.  You do your thing and let everybody else do their things.

[FullMetalMachinist]

@Geschosskopf I honestly think that you're getting a little worried about things prematurely. You even admitted that there has been relatively little information lately about the new system. Granted, I understand that you're simply voicing your concerns, as you have every right to do. I just think it's a little early to be 'doom and gloom' about something we know so little about. 

Now, having said that, I'll share what I remember from various past posts (disclaimer: this is all from my memory and I could be mistaken on things). The new system will have a few difficulty options, one of those being "off". The new stock system is not really like RT at all. There will be no need to create a network around Kerbin. It will be assumed that if you have line-of-sight with Kerbin, then you can communicate with the ship (an analog to NASA's deep space network). The strength (distance) of this "deep space network" will increase with tracking station upgrades. It will work mostly for science transmission, but there is some probe control component to it. It will only give a "bonus" if you utilize it, it will not penalize your current way of playing. Planetary occlusion and distance restrictions are both a thing. 

Of course, you can also ping @RoverDude and see if he's willing to spill the beans. 

[samstarman5]

I wouldn't expect more news on 1.2 until 1.1 gets more stabilized, for one. It was stated the communications system was being developed, and just postponed to 1.2.  When 1.2 begins to get close to Experimentals and Q&A, we are bound to get dev notes on what to look forward to with the features there, including the communications.  Anything else is just hype and speculation.

Me? I am hyped, as it adds a fun new technical detail to the game that by all appearances is not going to be absolutely necessary to a full career game.  From what I gathered, it is only going to make certain functions easier and faster, but there will still be other ways to get what you want done.  There's no 'you absolutely have to do this or your game is going nowhere' about it.

[Geschosskopf]

28 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

@Geschosskopf I honestly think that you're getting a little worried about things prematurely. You even admitted that there has been relatively little information lately about the new system. Granted, I understand that you're simply voicing your concerns, as you have every right to do. I just think it's a little early to be 'doom and gloom' about something we know so little about. 

I'm not being "doom and gloom".  KSP is still limping along and I suspect it will manage to survive a stock communications feature.  I'm just saying that nobody will like the results any more than they have the other stock implementation of so-called 'realism" features.  Those who don't want any of it will have it forced upon them anyway, and those who love that sort of thing will be dissatisfied with the inevitable watered-down, mass-market version that Squad will produce.  And it will certainly introduce yet more bugs, and will very likely break your save no matter how you're playing right now, so it will annoy everybody regardless of their personal tastes on the underlying subject matter.  This all seems the exact opposite of engendering good customer relations so I think the best business decision for Squad would be to forget the whole idea, or at most make it an official mod.

 

28 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

Now, having said that, I'll share what I remember from various past posts (disclaimer: this is all from my memory and I could be mistaken on things). The new system will have a few difficulty options, one of those being "off". The new stock system is not really like RT at all. There will be no need to create a network around Kerbin. It will be assumed that if you have line-of-sight with Kerbin, then you can communicate with the ship (an analog to NASA's deep space network). The strength (distance) of this "deep space network" will increase with tracking station upgrades. It will work mostly for science transmission, but there is some probe control component to it. It will only give a "bonus" if you utilize it, it will not penalize your current way of playing. Planetary occlusion and distance restrictions are both a thing. 

Of course, you can also ping @RoverDude and see if he's willing to spill the beans. 

Yeah, I reread that whole thread before I posted this one.  From that, it appears that the idea is to be like AR in being able to talk to any point on Kerbin's surface instead of only KSC itself as in RT.  Thus, the only thing that saves you is having to build a kerbosynchronous network just to talk to the opposite side of the planet from KSC.  But you still need every other component of the network to talk around the other planets.

There are 2 main things that communications systems can do:  control probes and transmit science.  It would be very nice if these things had separate and independent difficulty controls.  That way, folks who want to play with obsolete, dumb probes can while those who prefer more modern equipment can do their thing, too.