Climberfx Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I love Ckan, even using it in a Mac via Mono. It facilitate my updates, my life. The only thing i don't know how to do, is when i have installed a plugin manually, i don't know how to update it via Ckan. Besides that, just minor bugs, like the one when i try to update a particular plugin, Scatterer. It keeps in loop and won't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Blue Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, cantab said: Except when doing that doesn't work and instead means that Mod X clobbers the stuff Mod Y needs. And here-in is a good part of the issue... If Mod X clobbers Mod Y, maybe you SHOULDNT be trying to force two mods to work together that maybe shouldnt be... OR that are KNOWN not to work together... Wherein, if people actually were forced to at least SCAN the mod OP for such issues, they would know this, without causing grief by posting on the thread about it, like 50 other people have already done before them, cluttering up the release thread, with not only these worthless posts, but the gently stated replies to their complaints.... This is part of the problem users dont seem to get: when certain mods break each other when used together, it takes WORK and time to FIRST, troubleshoot the issue... And clueless users who dont even understand the basics of unzipping and installing KSP mods (yet somehow can install CKAN, and understand ITS (to me), complicated interface), cant even answer simple questions, or even read a single thread on how to post logs, or do simple perliminary troubleshooting on their own, end up WASTING, SOMEONE's time, when they initiate a complaint that mod X doesnt work with mod Y, but I got these from CKAN, and they MUST work together becuase "I" NEED THEM TO WORK TOGETHER... SO FIX THEM!! This is the part where USERS come off as elitist... So I ask, why does this: 3 hours ago, cantab said: Except when doing that doesn't work and instead means that Mod X clobbers the stuff Mod Y needs. entitle CKAN users to anything, over what people can expect from doing a manual install of mods?... Who actually READ that the mods dont work together, and either think "Oh, darn it!... Oh, well..." and go on playing without both mods, OR they give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on how to maybe make the situation better...??? Now understand, I KNOW that is a general statement, and there ARE responsible CKAN users the above does not apply to, as well as NON-CKAN users, who are just as clueless, and also post useless complaints if they had just bothered to read either the OP, or scan thru the last few recent pages of a release thread... However, obviously there IS a majority of CKAN users who my statement applies to.. OR THIS HEATED DISCUSSION WOULD NOT KEEP COMING UP... 3 hours ago, cantab said: I can't see that kind of policy as a good idea, and if it ever happens I'd be deeply concerned. Something everybody involved should think about: do you want Curse to move in? Because the longer CKAN and other community-developed mod managers are a basketcase, the more likely that is to happen. WHAT?!?... Where does THAT come in? And incidentally, I dont use CKAN... But once SpaceDock came on the scene and got up and running, I find I go to Curse about a TENTH of the time I used to, to get a mod..And Curse has ALWAYS been my last resort to get a mod... And I CONSTANTLY am grabbing new mods/updates...Like I HOARD mods... I have over 10,000 .zipped mods (89GB) on my HDD... So in MY mind, Curse usage (at least for ME) is dropping like a rock... 3 hours ago, cantab said: This brings up what *may* be an option for strongly anti-CKAN mod developers. Host your mods on your own website, and write the terms and conditions of that website to ban their download by CKAN. (If CKAN provides a meaningful user agent enforcing this is simple, otherwise it might be a bit problematic but you can still complain to Squad maybe). Now if the mod is under a permissive or copyleft license you can't stop someone else re-uploading it to another site to serve as a CKAN repo, but it's an extra step for anyone who wants to go past you - hopefully someone who wants to make their own CKAN-compatible mod repository will try and do a decent job. Again, this is a USELESS argument... It puts the onus on mod devs to do EXTRA WORK, for something they dont even support in the first place...How does THAT make things better?... Oh, wait!... It DOES... For USERS... Again, this seems like an elitist , do-it-our-way, or take-extra-effort-to-do-it-NOT-our-way.... I'm sorry, and maybe its my age telling, I am more and more amazed at the amount of effort & time spent, on overly complicated ways newer generations come up with, to get around a bit of easy-work or tediousness, to make their lives EASIER, usually making someone else's life HARDER in the process, when most of the time, its less effort or time to spend to just DO the work in the first place, than to figure out a way around it...LOL Edited June 23, 2016 by Stone Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombaatu Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 I started this thread to get information because I am a new-comer to this community and genuinely did not know. However, this 'discussion' has become way too acrimonious and I'm out. If any moderator is reading this, please feel free to lock the thread. The original question has been answered & the thread's purpose has been served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobymaru Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Bombaatu said: If any moderator is reading this, please feel free to lock the thread. The original question has been answered & the thread's purpose has been served. While it's cool that your original question has been answered, maybe it would be unwise to close this issue. Apparently there is quite a bit of dissent between mod authors and CKAN contributers/users, and maybe this is a topic that needs to be hashed out right here and right now instead of each involved person going back to their own thread and locking themselves into their opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferram4 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 6 hours ago, phoenix_ca said: Strict opt-in only is where I differ. -snip- While those are all nice ideas, they all fall into the same category as the rest of 2-5, which is that they don't solve the problem; they merely mitigate any issues that can come up. Only an opt-in system actually provides a way for modders to absolutely, positively be certain that they cannot be harmed by CKAN. It's also a somewhat necessary gesture of goodwill, since implementing that would include CKAN and its contributors acknowledging through action that they can cause severe issues for modders, that they're willing to take steps to address those issues, and if necessary, suffer a massive hit by de-listing the mod if they don't do so to the modder's satisfaction. As opposed to now, where there isn't any incentive for CKAN and its contributors to fix issues that they cause for modders, because they can basically just laugh and disregard complaints. This is part of where the real animosity comes from, because not only does CKAN cause problems, they have set up a system to shield themselves from the consequences of those problems. Making the system opt-in removes that shielding and puts CKAN in the position of having skin in the metadata-and-install issues game. 4 hours ago, Kobymaru said: How do you plan on enforcing that? Fork CKAN repo, revert the commits in question, click build and upload the client as CKAN_l33t_h4xx0rd.exe . I plan on enforcing it the same exact way that TinkerTime and KSPModAdmin are suppressed by CKAN: they won't be the official source everyone talks about, they won't have the massive blessing that is being stickied by the forum moderators to get them their attention, and modders won't want anything to do with them because they're jackasses. It is possible to write a simple plugin to dump what's in the CKAN folder and know what people have installed, you get some good data about the metadata, if they're using a hacked CKAN build, at best, block them and blacklist them from support; at worst, set up code in the mods to break them if installed through that particular CKAN hack. 4 hours ago, Kobymaru said: So I ask you: how do you want to fight an idea that is sitting in the heads of hundreds of users, who have seen the benefits of this system? In all honesty? Pretty much what I do now; scale back on support of my mods, development of new mods, and engagement with the community. You people have made modding a lot less enjoyable for me, and the benefit of releasing (useful bug reports and feedback) basically got crapped all over by CKAN. The latest project I have in development is going to have to be ARR to protect me from people like you. And all any of you had to do to not cause it was be happy you got something that never existed before, but that wasn't enough, was it? 4 hours ago, phoenix_ca said: I can't speak for ferram but I think he was getting at that the preferred situation would be that the mod author would, like RoverDude, have their metadata files on their own repo where they are in control of them. No, I was getting at that CKAN should not be able to point to repos other than the official one, to get around the issues caused by simply running an unofficial repo. The end result is that it is pushed back to an unofficial CKAN build, released on an unofficial thread, minimizing its impact. 3 hours ago, cantab said: I think you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. But in the long run, a good mod manager ought to displace a bad one. I think you overestimate the amount of people that will switch. CKAN is perfectly poised to become the mod manager equivalent of the zombie that was ISA MapSat, never dying no matter how bad it got. And that was people being stubborn without ISA being promoted constantly in the forum sticky. 3 hours ago, cantab said: I can't see that kind of policy as a good idea, and if it ever happens I'd be deeply concerned. Something everybody involved should think about: do you want Curse to move in? Because the longer CKAN and other community-developed mod managers are a basketcase, the more likely that is to happen. I have no love for Curse... but why would that be a problem? Their mod stuff doesn't function for non-Curse sites, so why would any of us care? They have a nice and happy opt-in method baked in that I really don't have a problem with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Blue Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, Kobymaru said: While it's cool that your original question has been answered, maybe it would be unwise to close this issue. I agree... Its been a very civil discussion so far... And if we just shut down EVERY time this discussion comes up, then it just serves to keep avoiding trying to positively address the issue... However, it IS the OP's right and decision to shut down the thread... So thats between the OP and a moderator at this point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenpsp Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 As we have this fun CKAN discussion I think it is important to remember our places in this ecosystem. I have yet to find a modder who created a mod "for the community". Everyone I've known made a mod "for themselves" and then was nice enough to "share it with the community". Re-read if necessary because this is an important but subtle difference. Along those lines most modder likely don't actually care how many people use their mods. Sure there may be a bit of a rush when you see how popular something you created is. At the end of the day however is it not the primary motivation. With all of that said it becomes clear why modder a have the attitude about CKAN that they do. The ONLY reason for a modder to embrace CKAN is if it makes their life easier. Currently it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobymaru Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Just to be clear: I'm not yet a CKAN contributer, but I'm arguing here because I believe in the idea and I believe that we can make it work. 1 hour ago, ferram4 said: It's also a somewhat necessary gesture of goodwill, since implementing that would include CKAN and its contributors acknowledging through action that they can cause severe issues for modders, that they're willing to take steps to address those issues, and if necessary, suffer a massive hit by de-listing the mod if they don't do so to the modder's satisfaction. Quote As opposed to now, where there isn't any incentive for CKAN and its contributors to fix issues that they cause for modders, because they can basically just laugh and disregard complaints. That sounds rather unfair. I just checked out the GitHub page for CKAN, and it turns out that that the overwhelming majority of contributions come from like 3-5 people, and not from a microsoft-end-user-program-sized software division, like I thought. So I have my doubts that all that those people are doing is sitting behind their evil screens and squinting their evil eyes and letting out evil, maniac laughs. Even "basically". I also have my doubts that implying that they intentionally disrespect you by not immediately implementing suggested changes will change the climate such that they are more inclined to implement those changes. Quote This is part of where the real animosity comes from, because not only does CKAN cause problems, they have set up a system to shield themselves from the consequences of those problems. What is this shield-system that you are talking about? Quote I plan on enforcing it the same exact way that TinkerTime and KSPModAdmin are suppressed by CKAN: they won't be the official source everyone talks about, they won't have the massive blessing that is being stickied by the forum moderators to get them their attention, and modders won't want anything to do with them because they're jackasses. So if I'm a responsible adult who modifies and uses tools to keep his KSP install in order and share the knowledge on my way of doing it, I'm a jackass? Quote It is possible to write a simple plugin to dump what's in the CKAN folder and know what people have installed, you get some good data about the metadata, if they're using a hacked CKAN build, at best, block them and blacklist them from support; at worst, set up code in the mods to break them if installed through that particular CKAN hack. Wow, that's rather extreme. It makes me sad that you would go to such extremes. It also makes me sad that apparently you were pushed by ignorant users and ignorant CKAN'ers. I'm not even blaming you. I'm just sad. Quote In all honesty? Pretty much what I do now; scale back on support of my mods, development of new mods, and engagement with the community. You people have made modding a lot less enjoyable for me, and the benefit of releasing (useful bug reports and feedback) basically got crapped all over by CKAN. Quote And all any of you had to do to not cause it was be happy you got something that never existed before, but that wasn't enough, was it? Please don't take mod managers as a personal insult, because they're not. I'm grateful for what you did, and so is every single one of your users. The evil "people like me" don't actually want to hurt you, they see it as improving your work (the distribution and accesibility side of it). I know you don't see it that way, but in a sense, all of this CKAN business is similar to spreading the good word on your mod. Kinda like a post with a link on reddit, just with code on GitHub. Quote The latest project I have in development is going to have to be ARR to protect me from people like you. What is ARR? Edited June 23, 2016 by Kobymaru sacrifice comma for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenpsp Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 AAR= all rights reserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Locked at op request. Should others wish to discuss they are free to create their own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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