I need more parts to unlock

[Lunar Sea]

I play career mode and unlocked the whole tech tree by the time I reached Duna. I feel a bit bummed that there are massive science point bounties further out (esp Jool system) but nothing left to spend them on. It's just a simple gameplay mechanic, but I like having a goal for science points.

So I know there are some mods that add more nodes to the tech tree, such as Interstellar, but that may be a bit much for me to start with. Can y'all recommend some others? And do you know if the nodes get more expensive (which is fine by me since I'm building up a lot now)?

[JamesL86]

I have not been much into modding the tech tree, or anything really.  What you might want to try first is what I do.  When you start a career, adjust down the science yield slider to around 50% or wherever you feel comfortable.  I am not sure how low you can go with it but I heard somewhere on the forums once that there is enough science in the solar system to be able to knock it down to as low as 20% and still be able to unlock everything.  Dunno how true that is though.  Also, if you have not already given it a try, activate the option that requires you to pay monies for the equipment in the tech tree nodes.  This will mean that you not only need science for the nodes but you need cash as well to be able to access what you unlock.  Some folks don't like that option but I tend to think of it as the difference between knowledge (node unlock) versus application (purchase individual thing inside node).

[Scoh]

 

2 minutes ago, JamesL86 said:

When you start a career, adjust down the science yield slider to around 50% or wherever you feel comfortable. 

This. 

Or sometimes I'll set rules like "only one landing per body" or "no  science from minmus" to challenge myself further. 

[samstarman5]

As JamesL86 said. If you are finding yourself advancing in tech very quickly, then it is time to up the challenge.  You can get to Duna with Tier 3 parts, so working with that might be something to aim for next.

There are bound to be more parts to come, but I wouldn't count on more tiers.  The trick is customizing the difficulty to suit your playing needs.

[Streetwind]

But if you do feel like installing a modded tech tree, I recommend Community Tech Tree. Especially since you can install this onto your current save, and it will not mess anything up. The only thing it does is add additional nodes onto the existing stock tech tree. (If you chose any other modded tech tree that actually deletes or moves around stock nodes or parts, then you would have to start a new save.)

After you installed that, however, you still need actual parts to put into the new nodes. You can only get those by installing part mods, so if you're not comfortable doing that, then a modded tech tree probably isn't for you.

Some good starting points for CTT-compatible** mods would be anything put out by RoverDude, NecroBones, and Nertea. Each of those three people have their forum signatures full of links to a plethora of nice mods, varying from mindless drop-in parts (Stockalike Station Parts Expansion) to intimidatingly complex gamechangers (USI Kolonization System + Life Support). There are many others, of course, but I can't possibly remember them all

 

(** If a mod is not CTT-compatible, it will simply put its parts into the stock nodes that you have already unlocked, which means it doesn't serve your desire to have more nodes with parts to unlock. You can still install these mods without breaking anything, however!)

Edited June 20, 2016 by Streetwind

[AbacusWizard]

I second the recommendation for Community Tech Tree, with Near Future Tech and whatever other "more parts to play with" mods you'd like to try out. (The CTT forum thread includes links to several such mods.)

 

 

[Lunar Sea]

Cool, thanks guys, I'll have to look into that Community Tech Tree, sounds interesting. Not real keen on starting another career from scratch, it took me months to just get this far! But next time I'll definitely dial down the science. 

[Mister Spock]

There's a mod called Kerbal Research & Development that gives a purpose to science past the end of the tech tree.  Science lets you research upgrades to equipment: better batteries, solar panels, RTGs, etc.  Linkage: 

 

[Lunar Sea]

56 minutes ago, Mister Spock said:

There's a mod called Kerbal Research & Development that gives a purpose to science past the end of the tech tree.  Science lets you research upgrades to equipment: better batteries, solar panels, RTGs, etc.  Linkage: 

 

Excellent! This sounds like it's exactly what I need - more stuff to spend science on

[KerikBalm]

Or for completely stock, just do the science -> funds strategy, and have your spaceprogram be self funding without bothering with contracts.

In real life, taking samples of Mars doesn't lead to breakthroughs here on Earth, but it does look good when its time to renew the program funding.

This thread could easily devolve into just a list of part suggestions to fill the nodes... for which there are plenty of other threads

[Wjolcz]

This wouldn't be a problem if we had a proper career mode with a proper working system based on rep with tech being researched with money.

[Snark]

Another example of "stretching" the tech tree is rearranging the solar system, for example the mod New Horizons. It completely rejiggers the solar system (adds lots of new planets, and rearranges the existing ones). A side effect of that is a redistribution of science multipliers for the various bodies, which in turn means that you end up having to explore a lot more places to max out the tech tree.

[Lunar Sea]

15 minutes ago, Snark said:

Another example of "stretching" the tech tree is rearranging the solar system, for example the mod New Horizons. It completely rejiggers the solar system (adds lots of new planets, and rearranges the existing one). A side effect of that is a redistribution of science multipliers for the various bodies, which in turn means that you end up having to explore a lot more places to max out the tech tree.

Does Outer Planets do that too? I know I am going to try out one of those mods in the future, just not quite done with the stock system just yet. 

[Snark]

59 minutes ago, Lunar Sea said:

Does Outer Planets do that too? I know I am going to try out one of those mods in the future, just not quite done with the stock system just yet. 

Nope.  OPM leaves the stock solar system completely untouched (other than moving Eeloo into orbit around Sarnus); it just adds additional planets to the outer fringes of the system.

So I suppose that in a sense, OPM actually makes your problem worse, in terms of "adds more gatherable science to the game without giving you anything to spend it on." 

But by the same token, it's also very friendly to retro-fit into an existing career:  you can drop it in to an existing game and it won't affect any of your ships at all (other than any that happen to be landed on Eeloo or within its SoI, which will be painlessly brought along for the ride when it becomes a moon of Sarnus).

I absolutely adore Outer Planets; it's far and away my favorite planet pack ever, the workmanship is just stunning.

New Horizons runs a close second, but has a bit higher barrier to entry because it's incompatible with existing careers-- it rearranges everything so completely that you pretty much need to start a new career to play it.  (It won't actually crash anything if you retrofitted it... but your ships would end up getting distributed all over the solar system as stuff gets rearranged, and any already-gathered science will put you out of whack with the author's designed play-balance.)

[eddiew]

Community tech tree adds a lot of nodes and mod support, but it looks rather threadbare if you don't feed it any parts packs...

If you really don't want to be adding parts, then my advice is kick up a new career with 20-30% science return. Personally, I play by a self-enforced rule that I can't run the same experiment in the same place more than twice (e.g. Duna surface, regardless of biome, only 2 temperature scans)

OTOH, if you're just worried that interstellar is big and Intimidating (it is, and I agree it's not an early-days mod) then I'm sure our community could suggest some good parts packs that are a bit more conventional. Maybe Space Y Heavy Lifters to add some bigger diameter rocket parts? Combine with CTT above to gain some expensive nodes at the end of the tree.

[Cornholio]

I HIGHLY recommend:

Not only is it compatible with other parts mods, but it gives you a better path to your playstyle and increases science costs to make certain nodes feel like much more of an accomplishment.  I don't think I will play this game without it from now on.

 

[MaxPeck]

As far as the program being self-funded/budgeted, I'm rather partial to this mod:

But I agree that the science point balance is weird.  You have to grind to get science on Kerbin/Mun/Minmus so that you can go interplanetary, but by the time you can get to the science point bonanza that is the Jool system, you don't need the points anymore.  I'm not a fan of throwing trash into orbit, so I tend to find myself doing endless iterations of various climate scans on Kerbin before I can get enough tech to make something meaningful to launch into orbit, and then that thing does its one or two science experiments and it's useless.  So usually I don't do any kind of orbital science until I can get a station into orbit, and then I use OSE Workshop to recycle the science parts that can't be reused.

The field/station science contract packs help with that a little, but still, I like the way the casher mod makes tech more accessible when you need it.

Edited June 20, 2016 by MaxPeck

[lugge]

Yeah, MaxPeck got the point.

I recently started a new hard career where you get very limited amount of science and funds... in the beginning.

Only "gain" is, the Mun/Minmus grind takes longer.

As soon as you go interplanetary, or even manned-interplanetar, funds and science are no problem.

Problem not solved :-(

I think the whole science thing should be reworked. But I admit thats no easy task, it should not feel grindy. I guess the only solution is to overwork the complete career, like, introduce a storymode where you are forced to do remote exploration, one planet at a time, before you can send your big Jool-5 mothership.

At the moment, the only difference between career and sandbox modes is the funds/science-grind in early-game.
 

[Waxing_Kibbous]

FYI there is also a plan in the Admin building that allows one to convert science to funds which could give your space program a bit of freedom from contracts.

[Snark]

I agree that the science balance could use some reworking-- it feels a bit of a letdown that you can max out the tech tree on just Mun/Minmus.  I find that every career I run seems to go in three stages:

1. the early career of getting to Kerbin orbit and doing my first Mun and Minmus landings
2. grinding Mun and Minmus for science, along with grinding lots of contracts to upgrade the VAB and science facility
3. go interplanetary and explore everything

#1 is lots of fun for me.  #3 is also fun, but kinda pointless because I have everything unlocked by then. #2 is frankly a drag.  "Hit every biome on Mun", ditto Minmus, was fun once, maybe twice.  It's not fun to do every career.  I would love there to be a way that makes #2 less of a grind, and gives #3 more of a point.

That said... while acknowledging the problem, it's not obvious what the solution is.  For example, I really like the mechanic that you have to go places to discover stuff, which unlocks tech that lets you go to more places.  So personally, I would love a solution that pushes you to explore the solar system more.  On the other hand, an awful lot of KSP players never leave Kerbin's SoI, and it would seem a bit churlish to essentially exclude them from KSP careers.

A few ideas for addressing the issue, in spoiler section since they're only marginally on-topic here.

Spoiler

First, I think that there's a "great divide" in the KSP player community:  People who go interplanetary (and spend most of their play time doing that), and people who stay in Kerbin's SoI.  That's a huge difference in play style, and trying to cater to both of those groups simultaneously is one of the really difficult constraints facing the design of KSP's gameplay.  So, one idea:  Why not make that an explicit career choice?  As in ,when you start up a new career game, have an option for "Interplanetary career" versus "Kerbin career".  The current career mechanic that we're all used to up to now would become the "Kerbin career" -- i.e. you can max out the tech tree just with Mun and Minmus.  The "interplanetary career" would shift things around to make a "longer game" more fun (ideas on that below).

So, ideas for the "longer game":

Diminishing science returns per body:  Make it so that the first time you get a particular science result from a body, it gives full yield.  However, any science returns that are per-biome give a diminishing return for each additional biome-- say, 70% of the last one (picking the right number would likely need some playtesting).  Thus, the first time you get "surface sample from the Mun" would give you full value.  Then you go to a different biome on the Mun and get another sample; this one's worth only 70% of full value.  Then you go to a third biome and get another sample, that's 49% of full value, and so forth.  This tail-off could be accompanied by a slight boost so that the very first sample is worth a bit more than it is now.  The diminishing-returns would be per experiment: for example, maybe you've already taken a bunch of Mun surface samples so that's not worth it much anymore, then you unlock the gravioli detector:  the first surface measurement you get with that will be worth full value.

Doing this would mean that it's especially juicy to go to a new planet or moon that you've never been to before.  If you want to hit all the biomes, you can, but it's not worth exhaustively mining out all the science there from every biome so it's less grindy.

 

Add tier-0.5 VAB and SPH:  The 30-part limit is great for the really early game, I love it-- it forces some creative design to work around the limitations.  But it really constrains what you can do beyond a simple land-and-return Mun or Minmus mission.  You basically have to unlock tier-1 to go interplanetary to any interesting degree.  But tier-1 is just too much of a jump, IMHO:  it takes an enormous infusion of cash (so you have to grind and grind and grind to get there), and it's a huge jump in part count (255 parts is effective infinity, for most missions).  And by the time I have that unlocked, I generally have so much tech that there's less need to explore other planets.

Would love there to be an extra tier in between:  one that's a lot cheaper (say, just 100K or 200K funds), and which raises the part count to a meaningful intermediate level that's interestingly constrained without being crippling-- say, 60 or 80 parts, for example.  If you have a higher part count to play with, it becomes more practical to explore other planets before maxing out the tech tree.

 

[eddiew]

25 minutes ago, lugge said:

As soon as you go interplanetary, or even manned-interplanetar, funds and science are no problem.

Considered Celestial Body Science Editor? Lets you drop the multipliers of each body to whatever you think is a fair amount. I usually nerf Mun and Minmus down to half their stock values.

But if you want a no-grindy go-places game... just stop going back to the same places? As above, I won't let myself hit up the same body for the same experiment multiple times, so I can go back to Mun, but only if I have new science experiments. Grinding the crap out of Mun before moving on is a choice, not a requirement. If it's boring - do something else!  

Edited June 20, 2016 by eddiew

[Mikki]

9 hours ago, Lunar Sea said:

Cool, thanks guys, I'll have to look into that Community Tech Tree, sounds interesting. Not real keen on starting another career from scratch, it took me months to just get this far! But next time I'll definitely dial down the science. 

...ermmm, don`t forget to make a backup of your vanilla savegame, and then install CTT and all the mods...
It might get very precious for you at some point.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I agree with the balance issue that @Snark mentioned. For the game mode, aka career, you want a good blend of non-grindy gameplay while pushing players to explore more, and at the same time be a bit of a challenge requiring some cleverness and dare I say wackiness (this is KSP after all). I'd like to add expanding the current tree, not with more parts but with more logically divided nodes, would be nice. Even just by 10% would be good, eg. making science experiments occupy their own node and pathway (so, a node only contains a thermometer, which unlocks the next one which only contains the barometer, etc.) could work out as a good balance.

I have played with lower science returns, 40% and 80% funds, and found the early challenges to be fun. I actually used the No More Science Grind mod however because repeating some experiments for nickels and dimes worth of science to me is where the grind is at.

[KerikBalm]

3 hours ago, Snark said:

Nope.  OPM leaves the stock solar system completely untouched (other than moving Eeloo into orbit around Sarnus); it just adds additional planets to the outer fringes of the system.

Not true, OPM lowers the science multipliers of the stock bodies.

 

Quote

OPM adds a lot of new bodies, which means that the amount of science that can be gathered has increased by a lot too. To compensate this, since version 1.5.0 there has been a ModuleManager config that balances the stock science multipliers. If you don't want it though, you can remove the StockScienceMultipliers.cfg file located in the OPM/KopernicusConfigs folder.

 

[SorryDave]

OP - As another option besides lowering science gain, you can earn credits for collecting it. 

This will work with a lot of mods suggested above. You need a lot of Rep, 75% and an ugaded admin building. And whatever the 100% science to fund strategy is called.

Its not a ton of money, but it can offset costs. Labs generate a little credits per day if they are stocked with data and scientist. It's not game breaking money, but not bad either especially if you routinely warp ahead for interplanetary trips.

I use this strategy because, right? I was going to build bases and collect science anyway.

Edited June 21, 2016 by SorryDave