[1.1.2] WIP - Make it SINK - Alpha testers needed

[Fengist]

6 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Have you already uploaded the new version?

I could let you read some really bad code for a change...

Edited June 29, 2016 by Fengist

[Fengist]

1 hour ago, SpannerMonkey(smce) said:

Yeah gotcha indeed. i wont mention it again

As for the Dc, it's no substitute for a bit of intelligence, as you mentioned in your release thread, and admittedly I was deliberately screwing with it.  Been messing with subs since 0.16  I just thought I'd give this a whirl see if it made the trimming any easier (which isn't hard if you know the craft) I'd say it'd be great for someone new to subs in general, giving an idea of what it takes to achieve a decent balance.

Now that it should be working, you're still not going to find it all that accurate... and that's somewhat by design.  Years ago when I first started playing KSP I couldn't get a rocket to the Mun for crap, never mind docking.  So, like many I installed Jeb.  And I watched, and I learned.  And one day, I realized, it was having all the fun.  So I uninstalled it.  Now, I'm landing on the Mun meters away from my intended target... in the dark... horizontally.  Docking?  I don't even use a camera. I use the keyboard for pitch and roll and a joystick for translation.

I don't want the sub computer to be all that either.  I want it to get you in the ballpark so you can get the feel for subs without wanting to beat your keyboard stupid.

TLDR: Yep, brains over code any day.

[adsii1970]

@Fengist:

I just tested the new programmed computer. Yes, the data window is now toggle-able and if removed in the SPH, does remove the data from the window. So it appears that the bug is fixed.

And as you know, I am bad about using parts as they are not intended to use, and even had to play with some of your older part configurations from the Maritime pack (I hope you do not mind). It seems that I could only get one revolution per minute with either of your sub engines! That is a different issue...

The Mk 2 parts can be used on the bottom of a vessel if you use something to act as an attachment point. Transferring water fore and aft is pretty easy and I am starting to get the feel for it. Oh, but I did use the bitts still as large holding and trim tanks, they work with the new compressor/decompressor parts pretty well and fluid can be transferred in and out of them as well.

 

[Fengist]

Yep @adsii1970, the bitts should work just fine.  The compressors are pretty much identical except the sub ones are combined with the decompressor.  The computer will find the bitts too and will work as long as you only have 2 of them.  If you have more than 2, autokeel and auto buoy will just shut down.  It expects 2 tanks, a fore and an aft.  I'm having enough issues getting a lever to balance with only two ends, nevermind having 3 dimensions to balance out.

As for the sub engine.. hummm.  You have the Firespitter .dll installed?

Oh.. and are you submerged?  The engines should shut down when it's above the surface to keep people from thinking subs are aircraft.  I know there is one issue, once it's started, you can't deactivate it.

[adsii1970]

13 minutes ago, Fengist said:

Yep @adsii1970, the bitts should work just fine.  The compressors are pretty much identical except the sub ones are combined with the decompressor.  The computer will find the bitts too and will work as long as you only have 2 of them.  If you have more than 2, autokeel and auto buoy will just shut down.  It expects 2 tanks, a fore and an aft.  I'm having enough issues getting a lever to balance with only two ends, nevermind having 3 dimensions to balance out.

As for the sub engine.. hummm.  You have the Firespitter .dll installed?

Oh.. and are you submerged?  The engines should shut down when it's above the surface to keep people from thinking subs are aircraft.  I know there is one issue, once it's started, you can't deactivate it.

@Fengist:

Actually, I have four total - two aft, two fore. I also have a bunch of those Mk2 tanks in serial to make the sub sink. Two tanks just caused it to sit lower in the water. It does seem that autokeel does something, but just really slow. What I do is while it is in the SPH, I turn off the bitts to where they are essentially empty. Once submerged, I use them as trim tanks. So far, it seems to work well when I pump from the Mk 2 to those tanks.

Oh, and there's something a little funny that works well - if you right click on the Mk 2 tanks first, then alt-right click on the bitts, you can select two bitts at one time, then transfer the compressed water from the Mk 2 tank - equally split between the bitts!

Yes, I do; not sure what is going on there but about to tweak it. And yep. submerged with plenty of battery power. And it deactivates fine...

[Fengist]

Well, it SHOULDN'T work with more than 2 tanks.  Take a look in the log file I mentioned above.  It should say something like this:

6/29/2016 8:20:12 PM: [Maritime Pack] MPUtils v0.1 Anchors Aweigh!
6/29/2016 8:21:30 PM: [Maritime Pack] Compressed Water Found: 2

(that's from Maritime but should look the same).

If it says more or less than 2, it shouldn't be working.

[Fengist]

Ok guys, I'm not hearing many more complaints now that the computer is fixed.  Is this thing still working as described?  If so, I'll start tinkering with models to fit other sizes and start getting a release ready.

[genericeventhandler]

5 hours ago, Fengist said:

Ok guys, I'm not hearing many more complaints now that the computer is fixed.  Is this thing still working as described?  If so, I'll start tinkering with models to fit other sizes and start getting a release ready.

I'll test some more over the weekend,  although diving and auto keeling were working the last time I landed on water, my crafts flip upside down when I blow the tanks.

[Fengist]

15 hours ago, genericeventhandler said:

I'll test some more over the weekend,  although diving and auto keeling were working the last time I landed on water, my crafts flip upside down when I blow the tanks.

One trick you may want to try to keep from flipping is to add an air tank to the top or top sides of your sub.  If you have the Maritime Pack, the old buoyancy blisters would work well for that.  They're filled with air.

[genericeventhandler]

I've built a number of subs today, everything worked well, a couple of points. 

• Close button is needed for the Info window panel, it can stay open if you switch ships.
• The ballast tank is in another group from the other two parts, they should really all be in the same tech node on the tree. 

Suggestion:

• Have a maximum Sink / Surface rate,  blowing tanks or filling them to the top can result in bad things happening.
• Include a part that can be made buoyant that can be surface attached, I used the USI Survivability floats.
• Include a part that can be made heavy that can be surface attached,   I used KIS lead weight.

 

Hope this helps, the basic functions worked great. 

GE  

 

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by genericeventhandler

[Fengist]

Just a quick note:

Don't expect anything new on this mod for a while.  The other day I had some spare time and created a set of Mk3 parts. I put together what I consider to be a small Mk3 sub and tossed it into the water.  140 tons of ballast later, it was still floating.  So, as I suspected and as many people have pointed out, Mk3 parts float... really, really well.  The only 'viable' solution to making something like this work for all stock parts is going to require a lot more work than I anticipated.  The current theory is now that when the computer is attached to a vessel, the stock buoyancy on every single part of that vessel must die. It must then be replaced by a new, force that pushes upward on the vessel.  This isn't a new concept. Both Firespitter and Better Buoyancy use this technique to achieve their modifications to buoyancy. The difference is, FS requires you to manually adjust the buoyancy level of each and every part and only affects the part that the FS partmodule is on.  BB applies buoyancy to all parts but applies them to every single vessel that lands in the water. In order for this mod to work, it'll have to combine techniques of both: to affect every part on the vessel and have the buoyancy recalculated based on part volume and to reduce stock buoyancy effects to allow them to sink, but only on vessels where the computer part is present.

TLDR: Adding mass alone isn't going to work for this mod. Math will be required.

I've built a number of subs today, everything worked well, a couple of points. 

• Close button is needed for the Info window panel, it can stay open if you switch ships.
• The ballast tank is in another group from the other two parts, they should really all be in the same tech node on the tree. 

Suggestion:

• Have a maximum Sink / Surface rate,  blowing tanks or filling them to the top can result in bad things happening.
• Include a part that can be made buoyant that can be surface attached, I used the USI Survivability floats.
• Include a part that can be made heavy that can be surface attached,   I used KIS lead weight.

 

Hope this helps, the basic functions worked great. 

GE  

 

 

All great suggestions. The only one that is going to be a challenge is to control rapid ascent and descent.  That'll require a good bit of coding.

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Fengist

[adsii1970]

@Fengist

You're being much to hard on yourself. As someone that makes submarines out of Mk 3 parts, your "Sink It" mod works fine with some old-fashioned finagling. The key to making it work (as you can see in the IMGUR album I've included) is based on an understanding of the Mk 3 dynamics. You're correct - Mk 3 parts appear to be made of air filled marshmallows and are extremely buoyant. But the excess buoyancy can become an asset if planned for accordingly.

• Use ore canisters (I have a combination of large and small) to cause the Mk 3 parts to "sit" in the water. Use a crazy amount of them. The goal is to have somewhere between 1/8th to 1/5th of the hull under the waterline.
• Use a crazy number of water tanks and compressors. The sub pictured has 20 water tanks and 5 compressors, and a single dive computer. These are placed on the bottom of the sub and ARE NOT counted as a part of the 1/8th to 1/5th part of the hull underwater.
• Use the Bitts from the original maritime pack. Right now, this sub I have has two to the rear of the conning tower. The exact location depends on the sub design itself, but these act as stabilizing ballast and trim tanks. I have mine resized to 200%. Yes, they need to be large.I have a third one in the bow, but have yet to EVER use it.
• While in the SPH, simply right click then click the green triangle until the red hashline appears over it. This prevents these tanks from filling when you activate the water compressor. Once the sub is in the water, and you begin the dive process, manually transfer water from the fore tanks (as the front always takes on more weight than the aft) to these tanks. In fact, you can fill both of these Bitts at the same time.
• The computer does work - some - if you have it centered in the middle of the Mk 2 assembly at the bottom of the craft.

Writing this out has actually given me an idea that I might, repeat might, try my hand at modding. Why not make a Mk 3 sized supertank - about the size of the 4m Mk 3 fuel tank, that can be controlled with the compressor/decompressor? It might be the easiest solution...

And as far as math, I'd like to add that you also have to have patience. During the creation and construction process, I crashed KSP nearly a dozen times tweaking and measuring, testing, and trying to understand Kerbin's water dynamics (it appears to have the consistency of watered down dish liquid).

Additionally, there has to be an understanding of CoM - the ship must be centered:

• IF the center of mass is too far forward, then your sub is going to be naturally have a negative angle in it's bow. It's bow, once submerged, will require a lot of effort in water transfer aft to create the much valued 0 angle.
• If the center of mass is too far aft, then your sub will always, without intervention, have a positive angle on its bow.
• Under even 1/3 power underwater, a negative bow means you still go down, a positive bow means you'll eventually break the surface. Achieving the 0 degree is extremely hard, but even a slight up or down is ok and manageable with the occasional use of dive planes.

Anyhow, as you can see from the images below, the sub can work, is functional, blah, blah, blah... and it is all based on your "Sink-It" mod.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by adsii1970

[Fengist]

20 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

 

• Use a crazy number of water tanks and compressors. The sub pictured has 20 water tanks and 5 compressors, and a single dive computer. These are placed on the bottom of the sub and ARE NOT counted as a part of the 1/8th to 1/5th part of the hull underwater.
• Use the Bitts from the original maritime pack. Right now, this sub I have has two to the rear of the conning tower. The exact location depends on the sub design itself, but these act as stabilizing ballast and trim tanks. I have mine resized to 200%. Yes, they need to be large.I have a third one in the bow, but have yet to EVER use it.

Given enough rocks, you can make anything sink.  But your solution means that you have a capacity of over 1,400 TONS of ballast.  While it will work, there's 2 problems with this.

1. More mass causes more drag in the water.  The more you add, the slower you go.
2. Gravity still applies even when submerged.  If you moved those ballast tanks to the ends of your vessel and filled them, you'd see your vessel bend in the middle. Because vessels aren't one solid unit and are comprised of parts, gravity pulls on each part rather than the vessel as a whole.

The initial goal will be to get this mod to work with exactly two ballast tanks, one fore one aft, one compressor and one computer.  While your method obviously works, you've had to add in some 22 ballast parts plus all those ore tanks to do so.

Your dedication to making a 'stock' sub is admirable but most players aren't going to go to that extreme just to explore a desolate ocean floor.

[adsii1970]

Just now, Fengist said:

Your dedication to making a 'stock' sub is admirable but most players aren't going to go to that extreme just to explore a desolate ocean floor.

To quote John F. Kennedy: "we do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." Seriously, though, that's how I roll...

 

[Jatwaa]

This is awesome. When you took a mini-cation I was looking into coding an auto-balancing ballast system myself and never got far into the whole thing with my schedule. I'd trust your coding more than my own any day! 

I must be trying this...Atlantis...you shall be mine...

[pTrevTrevs]

Type VIIc U-boat, 100% stock except for your mod

Working on this has brought to my attention a few things that may need to be added. I saw your post declaring that nothing new will be added for a while, but please hear me out anyway.

• High capacity ballast tanks: the Mk 2 tanks work very well for this submarine, since I built the hull around the Mk 2 fuselage. The problem is that the current tanks are not enough to fully submerge the vessel, in fact, the picture above was taken with full ballast tanks. These bigger tanks shouldn't be too hard to add, you can make them Mk 2 as well, just longer and with a higher capacity of compressed water.
• The ability to fill ballast tanks in the SPH: Making the tanks accessible in the editor will allow them to be used for balancing the vessel on the surface and adjusting the height of the waterline. It makes the tanks much more flexible, allowing people to use a certain amount of water in the tanks to start, then filling or emptying them as needed, without going through the possibly lengthy process of completely filling the tanks.

           Oops, turns out this is already possible. Disregard the above section.

• Do ballast tanks have a positive buoyancy when empty? On real submarines, a large part of the buoyancy on the surface comes from the air in the empty tanks rather than the displacement of water by the hull itself. I haven't tested yet whether the ballast tanks are capable of providing positive buoyancy to a vessel yet, so this may already be in the mod.
• Is there any way at all to make the dive computer work with multiple ballast tanks? It doesn't necessarily have to manipulate them all individually, instead it could only control two and have the rest be unaffected by its inputs. Real submarines do this, with the main ballast tanks in the center of the vessel or on the sides and smaller trim tanks in the front, back and occasionally bottom of the sub. The trim tanks are the ones that are filled or emptied to obtain a precise center of buoyancy. Another method that I thought of (and I have no idea whether it's even possible because I know nothing about coding) is to assign all the ballast tanks in the ship to one of two groups. One group to act as the "fore" tank, and another to act as the "aft" tank. This will allow people to place multiple tanks in different places on the sub, however it may be entirely superfluous due to the possibility of simply adding bigger tanks.

You wanted Alpha testers, so here it is, a comprehensive summary of my thoughts on how to improve this mod with the least effort.

Edited July 27, 2016 by pTrevTrevs

[Fengist]

@pTrevTrevs what you may not have noticed is that the ballast is ONE TON per unit.  When you add 140 tons of ballast to a vessel and it STILL doesn't sink, it's not a matter of throwing on more mass.  It's a matter of the entire buoyancy system being screwed.  The only way to fix that is to completely rewrite the buoyancy system. 2 other modders have tried that and both had their mods turned into junk when Squad 'improved' the buoyancy.  I'm not falling into that trap.  Sorry.

And if I could make the dive computer work with multiples, I would.  The problem there again is Squad.  Their almost total lack of documentation makes it next to impossible to calculate the center of buoyancy of a vessel. Without that.  I could guess all day and what it should be and not get it right.

There are other options to fixing this, like stripping the drag cubes off anything that's going to sink, but then... it'll end up flying like a rocket.

Water is more like gravy than water.  Squad's only concern is that you can crash land on water and build float planes. Beyond that, they don't care... which is obvious by the fact that when the stars come out and you're under water, you can see through th

Since it's creation there's been over 50 THOUSAND downloads of Maritime Pack (including Kerbal Stuff and self-hosted downloads). You'd think that alone would be enough to clue them in to the fact that their PAYING CUSTOMERS want water to work.

Sorry, until I get urge to completely rewrite buoyancy or it REALLY gets fixed, this mod is what it is.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Fengist

[pTrevTrevs]

I refuse to quote and snip that long post while on my phone, so have a mention instead

@Fengist 

I see, you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I guess if enough people wanted it, we could shame Squad into fixing the water, sort of like the "Save the Round-8" movement awhile back. Since several conceptual missions to other planets have involved the use of submarines, it could make sense for them to allow it, although I do agree that they probably couldn't care less about proper fluid dynamics underwater.

Good news though, my U-boat is diving and surfacing with ease, now comes getting the thing to turn.

[LionGuy]

Awesome way easier to make submarines(it was never hard).