[1.1.3] K.R.X Kerbal Rotor Expansion 0.31.1

[shepworth]

Does this come with Craft files with ready built ships?

[Eskandare]

16 hours ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

@Eskandare

 

Have you taken a look at the 'experimental' tweakable rotors that come with Firespitter at all?

 

I've been considering using them as a base template to create a rotor mod of my own centered around rotors powered by separate turbine engines instead of building the 'engine' into them.

What makes it more interesting is that the rotors utilize some kind of alternate 'power' production and consumption module that actually affects their RPMs.  If I can split that out and make turbines, it would make helicopters more interesting to build.

 

I will have a look at that in the future, but I wasn't sure if that feature wasn't working like the tail rotor function.

3 hours ago, shepworth said:

Does this come with Craft files with ready built ships?

Not yet, the crafts I made for the pictures are stock parts (save the rotors), but use tweakscale.

[StevieC]

Fair 'nuff. Thoughts, though, on the rigid-rotor system that Lockheed used in the XH-51?

[Eskandare]

45 minutes ago, StevieC said:

Fair 'nuff. Thoughts, though, on the rigid-rotor system that Lockheed used in the XH-51?

A lot of the developed technology used in the Lockheed XH-51 is now used in some modern production military helicopters and civilian helicopters.

[Jackaroo0505]

I activate the engine(s) and it works just fine but the rotors don't spin. Does anyone have a fix?

 

[Eskandare]

4 hours ago, Jackaroo0505 said:

I activate the engine(s) and it works just fine but the rotors don't spin. Does anyone have a fix?

 

@Jackaroo0505, make sure you are using the latest firespitter plugin distributed by @RoverDude. A copy is provided with KRX and is also provided in USI mods. Also you can find it in the Github.

[Camacha]

Just a few questions:

1) Do these blades provide torque, like the real thing?
2) How do they model thrust? Is it purely based on engine speed, or are variable props emulated?

[Eskandare]

1 hour ago, Camacha said:

Just a few questions:

1) Do these blades provide torque, like the real thing?
2) How do they model thrust? Is it purely based on engine speed, or are variable props emulated?

Well they have a reaction wheel providing the tendency for rigidity in space, but torsional force, no. Unless I emulate it with another thrust transform.

Variable props? You mean the cyclic function of the rotor mast? Unfortunately not as of yet. A rotor is considered a rotating wing, it generates lift, not thrust per'se. Example, if you want to move forward, the advancing blades have a flat pitch and the retreating blades increase pitch. This is often called tilting the disk, and is done by adjusting the cyclic, but the rotor mast itself actually does not tilt.

[Camacha]

Just now, Eskandare said:

Well they have a reaction wheel providing the tendency for rigidity in space, but torsional force, no. Unless I emulate it with another thrust transform.

It might not be relevant for this mod, but I have been waiting for that for a while now. It would be great to have to compensate for it in your craft, but also being capable of doing proper quad copter style vehicles. Without torque, those become flawed at best, as there is no possibility of yawing without external thrust.

Just now, Eskandare said:

Variable props? You mean the cyclic function of the rotor mast? Unfortunately not as of yet. A rotor is considered a rotating wing, it generates lift, not thrust per'se. Example, if you want to move forward, the advancing blades have a flat pitch and the retreating blades increase pitch. This is often called tilting the disk, and is done by adjusting the cyclic, but the rotor mast itself actually does not tilt.

I am mainly referring to the downward thrust (or lift, if you will) when stationary. A helicopter is is capable of adjusting power (engine) and thrust/lift (blade pitch) separately. Blade pitch can be adjusting almost instantly, while engine power takes a little more time, especially in turboprop engines.

[Eskandare]

2 minutes ago, Camacha said:

It might not be relevant for this mod, but I have been waiting for that for a while now. It would be great to have to compensate for it in your craft, but also being capable of doing proper quad copter style vehicles. Without torque, those become flawed at best, as there is no possibility of yawing without external thrust.

The reaction wheels should somewhat emulate that ability.

4 minutes ago, Camacha said:

I am mainly referring to the downward thrust (or lift, if you will) when stationary. A helicopter is is capable of adjusting power (engine) and thrust/lift (blade pitch) separately. Blade pitch can be adjusting almost instantly, while engine power takes a little more time, especially in turboprop engines.

Ahh, you mean the collective and RPM. A helicopter uses RPM to generate torque to keep the rotor tuning, the collective generates lift, and the cyclic generates direction. A pilot has to monitor the RPM vs Colective, hence why they are on the same control on the left of the pilot. Helicopters have a linkage that adjusts the engine speed with the collective, as you pull up on the collective the engine increases RPM. On the collective control is a throttle to allow the pilot to adjust the engine RPM independently from the collective. The cyclic is the control in front of the pilot. Anti-torque peddles, controlled by the pilot's feet, increase or decrease anti-torque, this is accomplished by changing the pitch of the tail rotor blades vs the torque of the main rotor. In this mod, KRX, assume Jeb is good at controlling the collective and adjusting the RPM.

[JeffreyCor]

This is the only thing I had used other mods with props for. Thank you for making this!

[Raptor9]

@Eskandare this mod is awesome, very well done.  I especially like how real the animation looks of the rotors at flight RPM's, and awesome start-up sounds.

As a helo pilot in real life, I certainly appreciate the work that's gone into this mod.  Can't wait to see what you do with it in the future. 

BTW, congrats on being featured on Modding Mondays.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Raptor9

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 4:07 AM, Eskandare said:

The only problem with rigid rotor masts is that once the blades slightly damaged or times out in accordance with the maintenance manual, the whole rotor head must be replaced, as it is one single piece this can be very expensive. Otherwise, they are great. As I understand, it doesn't have lead or lag like the fully articulated, instead it flexes. 

 

Ah yes, the dreaded 'maintenance' card.  Killer of all things awesome the world over.

 

 

[kcs123]

Can I make suggestion ? For gamebalance reasons, you should add reaction wheel capabilities on tailo rotors only for Yaw or with very low pitch and roll capabilities. For main rotors, reaction wheel can be even lower than it is now.

Using reaction wheels for controling rotor maneuverability is a very hacky way to come around of game engine limitations, but at least you can make heli that is controlable in game. With help of RCS build aid it is possible to create flyable heli with even much weaker reaction wheel capabilities, but not everyone have nerves for it, so it is understandable that you have gone with even stronger wheels than those used in KAX. Heck, I even used weaker wheels than those published with KAX later on.

Anyway, for folks looking for autohover capabilities, check out this post. If you have no desire to mess with kOS, you can try luck with TCA mod, although, I was having trouble to make it work with TCA in previous releases with only one main rotor because TCA have no other engine to balance thrust with.

Anyway, here is example how it can be done with help of kOS mod. It is old album for heli with KAX part, sorry about that, I didn't have a time to create new one with KRX parts yet. You can expect some craft examples soon, though.

 

 

[Beetlecat]

2 hours ago, kcs123 said:

Can I make suggestion ? For gamebalance reasons, you should add reaction wheel capabilities on tailo rotors only for Yaw or with very low pitch and roll capabilities. For main rotors, reaction wheel can be even lower than it is now.

Using reaction wheels for controling rotor maneuverability is a very hacky way to come around of game engine limitations, but at least you can make heli that is controlable in game. With help of RCS build aid it is possible to create flyable heli with even much weaker reaction wheel capabilities, but not everyone have nerves for it, so it is understandable that you have gone with even stronger wheels than those used in KAX. Heck, I even used weaker wheels than those published with KAX later on.

There's a mod [Tweakable Everything?] that put some tweakable properties to the Reaction Wheels on capsules, even going so far as to adjust the strength for each axis. That would immediately serve to remove the over-capable aspects of rotors (and require the use of a tail-rotor of some kind), short of patching KAX or KREx. --or, at the very least finding out what some good values are before hard-coding them into a patch.

[kcs123]

It is not a problem for me to edit some of part cfg data to adjust things for personal liking, but other users might not have enough skill for that.
For less skilled folks, it is better to be handled in mod default config values, rather than use additional mods or edit config files for themselfs.

It was just a suggestion based on experience with similar stuff from KAX mod, I'm sure that Eskandare will find best solution for his mod.

[Eskandare]

6 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

It is not a problem for me to edit some of part cfg data to adjust things for personal liking, but other users might not have enough skill for that.
For less skilled folks, it is better to be handled in mod default config values, rather than use additional mods or edit config files for themselfs.

It was just a suggestion based on experience with similar stuff from KAX mod, I'm sure that Eskandare will find best solution for his mod.

I'm open to suggestions, if you find a combination of settings that work well and emulate the operation of a helicopter within the limitations of KSP, you're more then welcome to share. I'm all ears.

[kcs123]

Well, first thing that pops up on my mind is that tail rotor should not provide thrust at all, or at least heve a default value of zero for max. thrust adjustment.
Reason for this is that there is no real need for "thrust" that is used for counter rotation of main rotor to make craft yaw stable, because of game engine/part limitation. To turn craft in desired yaw direction, reaction wheel capabilities is used instead.

Zero available thrust on engine might limit engine part usage for only as tail rotor control, not as actual main rotor for tiny craft some people like to create.
Better solution would be to set default max. value to zero. Otherwise, craft will spin on runway instead to provide more stability from tail rotor.

Instead of having reaction wheel on main rotor for yaw set to 50, set it to 0.5 or 1 max. Tail rotor should have reaction wheel yaw value of 50 or even more if desired.
That should be for actual intended pair of main/tail rotors that mimic real life rotors. Also, for similar reason, one Osprey engine could have only controls for pitch and half of needed roll capability, while other "reverse" model could have reaction wheel control only for yaw and other half of needed roll capability.

Some models, like Heron rotor with actual two rotors on top of each other should stay as it is.

That way, if player want to create feasible heli that looks more like real life counterpart will have to include both rotors per craft, main and tail rotor to maintain yaw maneuverability.

That is just a point of view from gamebalance/immersion perspective, so players still need to balance craft properly, to be controlable in flight. Also, having need for two engines instead of one add more to gamebalance in terms of craft mass/ thrust balance.

[Eskandare]

19 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

Well, first thing that pops up on my mind is that tail rotor should not provide thrust at all, or at least heve a default value of zero for max. thrust adjustment.
Reason for this is that there is no real need for "thrust" that is used for counter rotation of main rotor to make craft yaw stable, because of game engine/part limitation. To turn craft in desired yaw direction, reaction wheel capabilities is used instead.

Zero available thrust on engine might limit engine part usage for only as tail rotor control, not as actual main rotor for tiny craft some people like to create.
Better solution would be to set default max. value to zero. Otherwise, craft will spin on runway instead to provide more stability from tail rotor.

Instead of having reaction wheel on main rotor for yaw set to 50, set it to 0.5 or 1 max. Tail rotor should have reaction wheel yaw value of 50 or even more if desired.
That should be for actual intended pair of main/tail rotors that mimic real life rotors. Also, for similar reason, one Osprey engine could have only controls for pitch and half of needed roll capability, while other "reverse" model could have reaction wheel control only for yaw and other half of needed roll capability.

Some models, like Heron rotor with actual two rotors on top of each other should stay as it is.

That way, if player want to create feasible heli that looks more like real life counterpart will have to include both rotors per craft, main and tail rotor to maintain yaw maneuverability.

That is just a point of view from gamebalance/immersion perspective, so players still need to balance craft properly, to be controlable in flight. Also, having need for two engines instead of one add more to gamebalance in terms of craft mass/ thrust balance.

I'll try that out. I'm also thinking of putting a thrust transform per blade to see how that handles, and if there will be more of a desired effect.

[kcs123]

1 hour ago, Eskandare said:

I'll try that out. I'm also thinking of putting a thrust transform per blade to see how that handles, and if there will be more of a desired effect.

Don't know if it is possible to do thrust transform per blade, maybe trough firespitter plugin somewhere. But, in the past, I tried with thrust vectoring/transform first, sorts of, like jet engine gimbals, but could not manage to have desired effect with this. Probably a bunch of other things is needed for this. That's why I turned to hacky reaction wheel solution.

Although, Snjo reported somewhere in firespitter thread that unity have a "proper" wing code that can be used for propeler blades. Firespitter probably have a better support for this too, but a lot of features are abandoned/disabled trough KSP development to maintain compability. I didn't looked into firespitter code to see what is possible and what not, I just messed with MM configs to get heli rotors working to feasible way for use in the game.

Anyway, thrust transform sounds like a much better solution, keeping fingers crossed that you are able to do better controls with it.

[Guest]

A new update came out, there are now tail rotors ! I'm gonna test them out!

[hettlingf]

Is the mod on CKAN and im missing it?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

@Eskandare

Yeah, one of the reasons I point you at the firespitter rotor is that the rotor seems to have built in cyclic/collective management that is actual cyclic/collective, not 'simulated' with reaction wheels.

Plus the effectiveness of rotors depends on blade count and length.  Even the tail rotor seems to work.

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[kcs123]

You have to be carefull with FS parts, many of them were not properly updated for latest KSP version, it might work with stock physic, but there was issues with colliders and voxelization process if you use FAR and list goes on and on. Many of FS features become broken due to lack of free time for authors to maintain it properly.

[Duski]

Mod looks great! You thinking on adding some helicopter cockpits and other body parts for them?