Console KSP Lifespan

[Alshain]

30 minutes ago, klesh said:

They'll learn pretty quick that despite its name and fancy-graphics-announcements, that KSP is still in a Beta (than ever!) phase.  

No they won't.  Console users are not as patient as PC users.  If you think we do a lot of bellyaching here when things go wrong, consider this... we do that because we care about the game.  Console players aren't that patient, if the game doesn't work, they trash it on every review site they can and never play it again.  This has largely grown from the difficulty of patching games on consoles in the past era.  They pretty much view a release as the final product, they don't expect many patches to come after they purchase the game.

[322997am]

11 minutes ago, Alshain said:

No they won't.  Console users are not as patient as PC users.  If you think we do a lot of bellyaching here when things go wrong, consider this... we do that because we care about the game.  Console players aren't that patient, if the game doesn't work, they trash it on every review site they can and never play it again.  This has largely grown from the difficulty of patching games on consoles in the past era.  They pretty much view a release as the final product, they don't expect many patches to come after they purchase the game.

Of gamer right here, I do agree that pea console gamers do not give leeway for devs and manufacturers. That is pretty much why the better games(not all) start on PI, get patched and then get ported to console.

First word is PC not Of can't edit forum is bugged,

[DaMachinator]

9 hours ago, Majorjim said:

It is the same. The game uses a mouse pointer controlled by the thumb sticks.

I'm not going to be recommending this...I know first-hand how frustrating it is to move a pointer with thumb sticks or arrow keys, and rockets in KSP tend to shake a bit too much to click on them reliably.

[Madrias]

I'll weigh in here on this, and only because I want to see KSP succeed.

If, and this is a big "if" given the track record of broken releases and beta-test-grade stuff shoved out on the PC community, Squad manages to release a really, really bug-free version on Console and it works fine, and if they manage to quit breaking saves moving forward, then KSP Console could thrive.

However, if KSP releases in the quality of these 1.1 releases we've had, with broken rover wheels, airplane landing gear that are made of toothpicks, marshmellows, and explodium (granted, part of this could be solved by putting a weight-limit in the descriptions of the gear), and the multitude of little bugs typically fixed by mods, KSP Console is going to falter fast.

Why?  Because of a few things, and I'll detail a list here.

1. Bugs on the Console aren't tolerated well.  Let's face it, we've been exceedingly tolerant with bugs, crashes, and save-breaking updates.  That won't happen on the console, and it's partly due to the next reason.
2. Console Gamers in general have a short temper.  No, not all of them, but all one has to do is look on YouTube for how many gamers throw controllers into TV screens, or start screaming into the mic, or switch off the console.  Yes, these are usually in ultra-competitive FPS games, but part of that community might play KSP.  Now picture these gamers going full rage on Squad because they've released a buggy game, and they can't get a plane to fly off the runway, their rockets wiggle apart and explode, and then to add insult to injury, the patch that fixes some of these bugs adds new ones and breaks compatibility.  This highly-vocal and volatile minority will also take it out on the KSP community when we try to offer advice.  Those who manage to succeed in this highly toxic minority will offer the advice of "git gud" and "lrn 2 fly, noob" instead of "If you place the center of lift behind the center of mass on your plane, it will fly much better."
3. Controls.  The bane of our existance on PC is the dreadful nature of our digital inputs.  Yes, we can get away with this by plugging in joysticks, flight-simulation-yokes, throttle quadrants, etc. and a lot of us do.  You'd think the controller would be a great alternative, right up until you realize, it's only realistically better for flying than the keyboard is.  For controlling the VAB/SPH, you need a minimum of 12 buttons just to have: Rotate X+/-, Y+/-, Z+/-, Symmetry +/-, Small Angle Shift, and Angle Snap On/Off, plus a part selection button, and one to toggle modes (place, move, rotate, and root select).  Now, this can be simplified to 8 buttons by eliminating the - controls, but it means that you've tied up the ABXY (or the PlayStation counterparts) and all four shoulder buttons just for editor mode.  Thumbsticks aren't as precise as a mouse (although arguably, they can work well enough in a pinch), so part placement will be a little more difficult.
4. Let's face it, KSP doesn't have a learning curve.  It has a rocket-sled pointed at a learning wall.  Either you succeed because you know the laws of aerodynamics, a little rocket science, a bit of spaceflight history, and have a pinch of luck/skill on your side, or you proceed to slam into the wall at Mach 5 over and over again until you get it right.  And getting it right takes a lot of time, and can be rather frustrating.  Consoles are great for games that can be picked up, played for a couple hours, and put back down again.  KSP, a single mission can take all day, most of which is spent either re-engineering your craft, or sitting in map view playing "catch the intercept" with whatever planet you're going to.  And so let's use a hypothetical scenario here:  You've just come home from a bad day at work and turned on your console to play a game to relax and unwind.  Which would you pick:  KSP, a Modern Military Shooter, or a Modern Action RPG?  Would you say KSP is exactly a relaxing game when just learning?  I know I wouldn't.
5. While KSP is a great game for those who know a little aerodynamics or rocket science, it still requires you to do all of the hard work yourself.  Even NASA has help with piloting, and got to the bloody Moon and back with computers about as powerful as a Commodore 64.  Unless there are plans to include a stock-ified version of MechJeb and Kerbal Engineer Redux, you're gonna have a lot of console gamers looking at the math left in front of them and saying "Screw this, I'm playing (insert game here)."
6. KSP does one thing excellently deep within, and that is the fact that nothing fails without a reason.  If your plane crashes and explodes just after takeoff from doing a heavy backflip, stall, then back-flop, it's because you designed it wrong.  It gives you the tools to say, "Hey, look, my CoM is behind my CoL.  No wonder it flies like a brick with a paper plane tied to it."  But it doesn't lead you to that without knowing basic aerodynamics.  There's no in-career/Sandbox tutorial on "How to Build your First Plane" or "Rocket Building 101" or "Rovers for Dummies" to teach you "Hey, your center of lift is in the wrong spot and could make your plane very unstable."  There's no easy button to push that says "Simulate fuel drain" so that you can watch the center of mass change when building that first plane.  There's no easy button to push that says "Check my TWR" to make sure you actually have enough punch to get off the pad.  As a result, and this points back to that rocket-sled-learning-wall, you end up with players who look at KSP and think, "Cool, a space game about an alien space program!" and then two or three hours later, are upset because Rocket 1 fell over on the pad, Rocket 2 got off the ground, overheated the parachute, and then exploded on impact, Rocket 3 veered wildly off and became Single Stage to Ocean, Rocket 4 hit the VAB, and Up-Goer 5 went up straight and true, but despite reaching space and going rather very high, never made orbit because they just went straight up to try orbiting.
   
   In other words, KSP could highly benefit from some tutorials.  Yes, I know, there's supposedly tutorials in the main screen, but they're almost inaccessible without backing all the way out from your current save.  And the stock crafts really, really need to be revised to allow them to just work right out of the gate, without being excellent at anything.  So there should be a basic little trainer plane that does a great job at teaching you how to fly, but will never be space capable, a first rocket that won't make orbit, but will show how to do proper staging and what a rocket should look like, and a basic rover capable of traveling around the space center, but isn't useful until some parts have been added.

I think KSP might be able to do well on Console, if they can squash the crippling bugs first.

[ForsakenVoyager]

On July 2, 2016 at 8:00 AM, KJ2022 said:

I'm not trying to trash it, I enjoy the game both with and without mods, but a large portion of gameplay on youtube features mods, some console users could feel pushed out because of that?

But not all of them. One of the biggest KSP Twitch streamers is a stock player only. So, mods don't always make the game entertaining. Imagination and creativity do. 

On July 2, 2016 at 0:20 PM, Alshain said:

I'd be more likely to believe that it would fail due to launching in a 1.1.x state than not having mods.  I mean, trying to pull in a new crowd on a version as unstable as 1.1.x could be a disaster in the making.  Reviews are seldom updated once written, and we have a game version where wheels can't even drive down the road, critics will eat it alive.

I had not actually heard the console versions were slated for release this month, but assuming 1.2 doesn't get here first, It will be interesting to see what the console only side of the media thinks of this.

Just because it's unstable on PC doesn't mean it'll be unstable on the console versions. They are going to being different versions that are built for a specific console that can't be modified. That last fact alone should mean it might run a little more stable on console since there aren't hundreds of software combinations to worry about. 

On July 2, 2016 at 0:30 PM, Tex_NL said:

Totally agree. If the console version is as bugged and unfinished as we have now I predict the life span will be short. Very short!

Why? If the PC version isn't getting abandoned because of a "crappy" version. Why would another version? Gamers are gamers no matter where they play. To say otherwise is ignorant. 

[ForsakenVoyager]

15 hours ago, RandomUser said:

Think it's going to go the same way Minecraft on console did.  Good for a while, but calmed down a lot in a little time period.  And that is Minecraft, a way bigger game.  It'll be cool at first, but people will either go back to the PC version or stop playing it as often.  Other than that, it seems like the game would be pretty frustrating in terms of controls, not to mention no mods; so no Alarm Clock, Engineer, etc.  With all of that being the case, I don't foresee any PC players using the console version very long, and seeing as the game is one of those indie types, I don't think it'll have much taking off in the console market. 

Month after month when Sony shows the top games purchased on PSN Minecraft is on that list. It seems to be doing very well still. My sons and I love it. And to be honest they are as excited for KSP on PS4 as I am. Hell, I'm even going to buy it for my Wii U later this year when they finish that version too.

13 hours ago, Wallygator said:

Seems to me...

The desktop version has a longer half-life per version due to mod support and availability of "between-versions" community bug fixes.

The Console version (Assuming mod support is not provided) would only have a decent half-life if version releases were more frequent in conjunction with more effective bug squashing.

For Example: The docking port "Locked" bug currently still present - If that particular bug makes it to the console AND there is no way to install (let's just say for purposes of this example) a module manager patch to temporarily fix it, then that version of the console port would be immediately dead for a good many players - seeing as docking is an essential part of the KSP experience.

On the other hand - I could be off-base, as the console version might not include docking ports at all. :-)

I don't understand these comments. Just because someone plays a game on a console they will suddenly stop playing a game because it has a bug/issue? Why just console players? These comments are almost offensive. Because I play on PS4/Wii U I'm a infant that can't wait for a fix? If this was true almost all games would be abandoned. Bugs happen all the time and eventually they get fixed. Most games on PC and console deal with this with players coming back for more. 

[Madrias]

15 minutes ago, ForsakenVoyager said:

Why? If the PC version isn't getting abandoned because of a "crappy" version. Why would another version? Gamers are gamers no matter where they play. To say otherwise is ignorant. 

A little experiment to do would be to start a poll, and ask how many people on the forum are playing KSP 1.1.3 and how many are playing a different version of KSP.  Offer a third option for "I'm playing both the new and an older version of KSP," and a fourth option "I've stopped playing KSP, I'm just here for the community."

I can't speak for the whole community, but I speak for myself when I mention I'm still mostly rocking 1.0.5, short of a few attempts on 1.1.3 to get used to the new wheels (and now I'm waiting until the jittery wheels and sliding feet are fixed), and I'm mostly using 1.0.5 because, hmm... Let's see here... Oh, yeah, the Unity 5 update broke not just the stock wheels, because I wouldn't care about that too much, but it broke all of the wheels, mods included, that'd been made before.  Which means that I'm stuck with wheels that spaz out the instant I put one-too-many on my crafts to make sure the wheels can handle the weight of some of the things I'm throwing around, that stop working when I put a protective fender over the top of them, and that went from "Can't make a corner without flipping" to "Can't go up a hill without sliding, can't go around a corner without spinning out, and can't go over a bump without flipping."

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, ForsakenVoyager said:

Month after month when Sony shows the top games purchased on PSN Minecraft is on that list. It seems to be doing very well still. My sons and I love it. And to be honest they are as excited for KSP on PS4 as I am. Hell, I'm even going to buy it for my Wii U later this year when they finish that version too.

I don't understand these comments. Just because someone plays a game on a console they will suddenly stop playing a game because it has a bug/issue? Why just console players? These comments are almost offensive. Because I play on PS4/Wii U I'm a infant that can't wait for a fix? If this was true almost all games would be abandoned. Bugs happen all the time and eventually they get fixed. Most games on PC and console deal with this with players coming back for more. 

Think Minecraft is pretty close to KSP here in gameplay, both are open ended sandbox games, yes ksp has an steeper learning curve but that is mostly important then leaning to play.

Don't think console players are more bug sensitive than pc players outside of that its harder to get around problems, historically console games has been harder to patch. 
However plenty of people who play skyrim on PS3 and we know that it was an catastrophe. 
 

[GeneCash]

5 hours ago, ForsakenVoyager said:

Month after month when Sony shows the top games purchased on PSN Minecraft is on that list.

Don't forget, Minecraft on a console (at least the XBox) is a bit different from the PC version. For example, you don't have to remember "recipes" (how to make stuff) as the game has a menu-based system that guides you through it. I know when the Achievement Hunter guys switch between PC & console, they get caught out by gameplay differences.

It makes me wonder just how different KSP will be.

Also, while you can mod Minecraft, it's not as central to the experience like it is in KSP. I wouldn't start a career game without Kerbal Alarm Clock, and I'm too much of a spaz to play without MechJeb. So a console game w/o mods wouldn't attract me. I know Bethesda is having serious problems getting Fallout 4 mods working on console and they're far bigger than Squad. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTSWZyhj3nM

*MY* main worry is that if the console version goes down in flames, then the reputation hit takes a toll on the PC version too, in a "eh, KSP suxorz" attitude.

 

[Majorjim!]

Just now, GeneCash said:

It makes me wonder just how different KSP will be.

Its the exact same game in every way. The only difference is the pointer is controlled by the thumb sticks. No changes to the editor or anything like that.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Majorjim

[Red Iron Crown]

7 hours ago, Madrias said:

Console Gamers in general have a short temper.  No, not all of them, but all one has to do is look on YouTube for how many gamers throw controllers into TV screens, or start screaming into the mic, or switch off the console.  Yes, these are usually in ultra-competitive FPS games, but part of that community might play KSP.  Now picture these gamers going full rage on Squad because they've released a buggy game, and they can't get a plane to fly off the runway, their rockets wiggle apart and explode, and then to add insult to injury, the patch that fixes some of these bugs adds new ones and breaks compatibility.  This highly-vocal and volatile minority will also take it out on the KSP community when we try to offer advice.  Those who manage to succeed in this highly toxic minority will offer the advice of "git gud" and "lrn 2 fly, noob" instead of "If you place the center of lift behind the center of mass on your plane, it will fly much better."

I think this accurately describes the current, PC-centred community around KSP. Console gamers aren't any worse or better in this regard.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Red Iron Crown said:

I think this accurately describes the current, PC-centred community around KSP. Console gamers aren't any worse or better in this regard.

I disagree. We have been here for three years and are in general a patient bunch as we love the game so much. We help new players as best we can and have put up with a hell of a lot of stuff during development. The fractured console community is nothing like what we have here on these forums.

[Red Iron Crown]

Just now, Majorjim said:

I disagree. We have been here for three years and are in general a patient bunch as we love the game so much. We help new players as best we can and have put up with a hell of a lot of stuff during development. The fractured console community is nothing like what we have here on these forums.

Respectfully, you don't see all the "git gud" and "lrn 2 play" nonsense that gets moderated, some people are downright hostile to new users asking innocent questions. 

As for "Now picture these gamers going full rage on Squad because they've released a buggy game", I find it incredibly difficult to imagine someone saying with a straight face that this doesn't already happen. Go to any release thread and you'll see a ton of vitriol and insulting posts, and that's after the actually rule-breaking parts of it have been removed. 

[evileye.x]

I cannot even imagine the struggle of playing KSP without mouse, flightstick (ok, just for planes) and essential mods. 

I really would like SQUAD to succeed on console market, but... 

Sometimes I play KSP with my kids on my big TV screen, but it does not involve consoles at all

If the SQUAD team just asked players, "please those of you who wants us to continue develop the game you love, just buy it one more time",  I would go for it. 

But still I hope console port is not a wasted effort. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by evileye.x

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Red Iron Crown said:

Respectfully, you don't see all the "git gud" and "lrn 2 play" nonsense that gets moderated, some people are downright hostile to new users asking innocent questions. 

If that is true I am sorry you have to deal with that kind of thing. And the fact I have not seen any of it is I suppose testament to the fast moderation here. Damn.. I thought we where better than that and it seems your job is about to get a lot harder too..

 

[Madrias]

1 minute ago, Red Iron Crown said:

As for "Now picture these gamers going full rage on Squad because they've released a buggy game", I find it incredibly difficult to imagine someone saying with a straight face that this doesn't already happen. Go to any release thread and you'll see a ton of vitriol and insulting posts, and that's after the actually rule-breaking parts of it have been removed. 

There's always a small percentage of the highly-vocal minority that make a lot of noise about things.  The problem, and this is why I brought it up, is that console gamers outnumber PC gamers by a rather very large number.  Even if we assume 10% of each community (PC, XBox, Playstation) to be this highly vocal minority, and 10% of that group (1% in total from the whole community) are the hostile ones in that minority, that's a lot of people.

As for why I said it that way, I can only call it as I see it.  It shows how good the moderation team is here that things like this can go un-noticed by a large portion of the community.  And as MajorJim said, I feel bad for you guys, because you do a thankless job and it's about to get worse.

I try to bring constructive criticism to the table, and even on the wheel issue, my only reason for being so upset about it is not that the stock wheels are broken, but that Squad stripped so much code out that the dozens of mods with wheels in them are also broken, as in completely non-functional.  So we're forced to use the buggy, broken wheel code that seems to be a big problem to work around, landing legs that slide down hills, and landing gear that breaks too easily without explanation (as said before and elsewhere, a weight-limit in the part description could help on this).

But the problem with any gaming community is that the anonymity of the internet brings out the worst in people.  Add to that the Console Rivalries, the PC vs. Console rivalry, and the most hostile members of each community being the loudest and trying to claim they speak for everyone, and we're looking at an oncoming... um... yeah, I can't think of something that wouldn't be censored here.

[ForsakenVoyager]

1 hour ago, GeneCash said:

Don't forget, Minecraft on a console (at least the XBox) is a bit different from the PC version. For example, you don't have to remember "recipes" (how to make stuff) as the game has a menu-based system that guides you through it. I know when the Achievement Hunter guys switch between PC & console, they get caught out by gameplay differences.

It makes me wonder just how different KSP will be.

Also, while you can mod Minecraft, it's not as central to the experience like it is in KSP. I wouldn't start a career game without Kerbal Alarm Clock, and I'm too much of a spaz to play without MechJeb. So a console game w/o mods wouldn't attract me. I know Bethesda is having serious problems getting Fallout 4 mods working on console and they're far bigger than Squad. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTSWZyhj3nM

*MY* main worry is that if the console version goes down in flames, then the reputation hit takes a toll on the PC version too, in a "eh, KSP suxorz" attitude.

 

I get what you're saying. If it bombs on console it could affect all versions reputation, including PC. 

Minecraft is different on PC and PS4/Xbox/Wii U. Although they have added "classic crafting" to consoles. I'm not great at mouse and keyboard so I prefer my controller.

I understand that if you are accustomed to playing with mods and suddenly you lose them it's going to kinda ruin your play style. But for us that have never used them we won't "know what we are missing" and it shouldn't bother us. 

1 hour ago, Majorjim said:

Its the exact same game in every way. The only difference is the pointer is controlled by the thumb sticks. No changes to the editor or anything like that.

From what I've seen from events like Night at the Nindies that Squad has said all versions will be the same. Play the same and act the same. Only the controls will be different. 

[Majorjim!]

Just now, ForsakenVoyager said:

From what I've seen from events like Night at the Nindies that Squad has said all versions will be the same. Play the same and act the same. Only the controls will be different.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Majorjim

[Netherman555]

I think that Squad's just trying to open it up to a wider audience.  I couldn't even play KSP until I got my computer upgraded, but consoles won't be that way because everybody has a standardized system (most of the time anyway). 

Plus, how long do you think it's going to be until somebody figures out how to get mods? I mean, Fallout 4 on consoles supports mods and look how long it took them to get it.  It's going to happen at some point, i'm sure.

Also, @stibbons, I think you're taking this conversation a bit far.  You're kind of jumping at people for a problem that wasn't even there.  Just chill.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Netherman555 said:

how long do you think it's going to be until somebody figures out how to get mods?

The thing is that KSP does not handle memory well, or maybe it's Unity either one. Consoles do not have enough RAM to use mods.

[ForsakenVoyager]

 

YouTubers don't represent any type of gamers. PC or console. Simply because they are there to put on a show and act like a idiot. And most of the time it's entertaining, but doesn't represent anyone. I've seen plenty of idiots break keyboards or throw their mouse on YouTube and Twitch. Doesn't meant I follow it with "PC gamers have no respect for personal property". Oh and I've seen plenty of jackass console players. There are plenty of childish people on both, but probably more on consoles simply because of the plug and play convenience. But KSP probably won't appeal to the average FPS gamer who only want to play Call of Duty. And if they buy it and never play it again that's just more money for Squad anyways. I have a PC gaming buddy at work who loves simulation games. He bought KSP, tried it, deleted it. He said it's too complicated. I like complicated. 

Anyways, my point is we can let a entertaining acting like a idiot represent any platform.

[Netherman555]

2 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

The thing is that KSP does not handle memory well, or maybe it's Unity either one. Consoles do not have enough RAM to use mods.

Still, people seem to be inventive.  I'm sure somebody will figure out how to get mods at some point.  Might just take longer.

Besides, I have 4 GB and I'm running like 10 mods.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Netherman555 said:

Still, people seem to be inventive.  I'm sure somebody will figure out how to get mods at some point.  Might just take longer.

Besides, I have 4 GB and I'm running like 10 mods.

Really? Huh.. Maybe it's not that bad then. It's just an open door.. you can add as many as you want until the game crashes.

[Netherman555]

2 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Really? Huh.. Maybe it's not that bad then. It's just an open door.. you can add as many as you want until the game crashes.

Truer words were never spoke.

[cantab]

I agreed with what Alshain, Red Iron Crown, and some others have said or alluded to: KSP will stand or fall on consoles based on its own merits, based on what the core game is like. The presence or absence of mods doesn't matter, except to the extent that Squad may not have developed useful or beautiful stock features because there are mods for them.

Very little is known publicly about the console releases, but apparently one thing we do know is that the controls are a lazy port job. I did not want to see a mouse pointer anywhere in console KSP, unless the user happens to connect a mouse to their console. In my opinion all aspects of the game could have been done without resorting to a pointer. The evidence is that Flying Tiger have taken the easy way out, instead of developing a real controller-oriented UI.

(I find a 'controller-native' VAB easy to imagine. Dual analog sticks give you 3D movement. Buttons flip through a menu of parts. Other buttons do stuff like put you in rotate mode.)