Fuel Cells in RO/RF

[Wallygator]

Can anyone kindly explain the operating/design process for implementing a working Fuel cell configuration in RO/RF?

I believe I understand the LO/LH2 input to the fuel cell is required

I assume the fuel cell part must be attached to a LO/LH2 tank (and the proportions are "similar" to a LO/LH2 burning engine)

I assume that electrical power flows freely regardless of cross-feed (could be wrong)

I understand there will always be fuel boil-off regardless of the tank type

Yet...

My pod always drains electrics to Zero and goes dead

Fuel cells always show .01 charge (after they expend their residual (at start) charge)

So...

What am I missing here? (happy to label myself an idiot if I'm missing something obvious)

Thanks in advance - I sense that most players resort to solar because its easier. However, I would really like to see if a working fuel cell configuration can be achieved in the current RO/RF setup.

W.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Wallygator

[Theysen]

12 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

Can anyone kindly explain the operating/design process for implementing a working Fuel cell configuration in RO/RF?

I believe I understand the LO/LH2 input to the fuel cell is required

I assume the fuel cell part must be attached to a LO/LH2 tank (and the proportions are "similar" to a LO/LH2 burning engine)

I assume that electrical power flows freely regardless of cross-feed (could be wrong)

I understand there will always be fuel boil-off regardless of the tank type

Yet...

My pod always drains electrics to Zero and goes dead

Fuel cells always show .01 charge (after they expend their residual (at start) charge)

So...

What am I missing here? (happy to label myself an idiot if I'm missing something obvious)

Thanks in advance - I sense that most players resort to solar because its easier. However, I would really like to see if a working fuel cell configuration can be achieved in the current RO/RF setup.

W.

You're absolutely right about fuel flow and electricity flow. When you hover over the part description it should tell you how much power it gives for what amount of liters of lo2/lh2. Build a service module tank accordingly and Fill it up via right click menu. If it e.g. says 7 liters for a week you might go with 10 just to be safe from boiloff and have a margin. The mk1-2 pod needs 3 fuel cells as its drain is quite high. 

[Wallygator]

1 hour ago, Theysen said:

You're absolutely right about fuel flow and electricity flow. When you hover over the part description it should tell you how much power it gives for what amount of liters of lo2/lh2. Build a service module tank accordingly and Fill it up via right click menu. If it e.g. says 7 liters for a week you might go with 10 just to be safe from boiloff and have a margin. The mk1-2 pod needs 3 fuel cells as its drain is quite high. 

Thanks for that.

More questions then...

So the Mk2 pod (as defined in RO) requires 1.9kW.  A fuel cell generates 750W. So I see where you indicate 3 are required.

However, Even with 4 installed, I get only 7 hours...

Specifically 4 Oscar C (via Vens remap) each with 177 H2 and 67 O2 and a fuel cell attached to each.

 

And when the pod hits zero charge it's toast - Even if there is additional H2/O fuel in the tanks attached to the fuel cells.

So I'm still a bit confused. 

Are shielded tanks required? Even if so, what does my pod go to zero charge if I still have fuel feeding the fuel cells which are still operating? The pod should only drain if there is insufficient charging feeding into it.

In my opinion this is not appearing very intuitive.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Wallygator

[Theysen]

16 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

Thanks for that.

More questions then...

So the Mk2 pod (as defined in RO) requires 1.9kW.  A fuel cell generates 750W. So I see where you indicate 3 are required.

However, Even with 4 installed, I get only 7 hours...

Specifically 4 Oscar C (via Vens remap) each with 177 H2 and 67 O2 and a fuel cell attached to each.

 

And when the pod hits zero charge it's toast - Even if there is additional H2/O fuel in the tanks attached to the fuel cells.

So I'm still a bit confused. 

Are shielded tanks required? Even if so, what does my pod go to zero charge if I still have fuel feeding the fuel cells which are still operating? The pod should only drain if there is insufficient charging feeding into it.

In my opinion this is not appearing very intuitive.

I'll see and test it in my install now, are you on the latest RO for 1.1.3?

[Wallygator]

21 minutes ago, Theysen said:

I'll see and test it in my install now, are you on the latest RO for 1.1.3?

Yes.  RO/RSS/RF all updated to latest release.  Which I must say is a fantastic update!

Drain sequence is Fuel cell part first, then pod, then tanks drain but with no charging into pod. So even while the fuel cells are supposedly working (in which the 4 fuel cells in unison should be generating more charge than the pod requires) there is no net charge going into the pod.

Weird.

NOTE: I should add that there is a heat shield between the pod and the decoupler. But that hopefully should not matter.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Wallygator

[Theysen]

So I just built a simple craft with the Mk1-2 pod, heatshield, decoupler and put a single oscar-c under it. I then attached 3 fuel cells and filled it with the LiquidOxygen and LiquidHydrogen and it worked for the time expected, producing the set amount of Watts.

Issue I see with your install: You can't change the Tanktype on your Right Click Menu for the Oscar-C. You should be able to set it to Service Module / Cryogenic / Default / Structural etc. Also please try getting rid of TweakScale as it caused issues in the past with RO. You can use procedural parts instead.

Try it and see if this brings back the 'change fuel tank type'.

[Wallygator]

8 minutes ago, Theysen said:

So I just built a simple craft with the Mk1-2 pod, heatshield, decoupler and put a single oscar-c under it. I then attached 3 fuel cells and filled it with the LiquidOxygen and LiquidHydrogen and it worked for the time expected, producing the set amount of Watts.

Issue I see with your install: You can't change the Tanktype on your Right Click Menu for the Oscar-C. You should be able to set it to Service Module / Cryogenic / Default / Structural etc. Also please try getting rid of TweakScale as it caused issues in the past with RO. You can use procedural parts instead.

Try it and see if this brings back the 'change fuel tank type'.

Ok cool.  I'll try this and see what happens. 

Need to go do some actual work for a while (like getting paid!) and will report back in a little while.

Thanks so far!

[Wallygator]

OK a quick test again without tweak scale reveals no positive result.

Perhaps I am not communicating correctly... So here is the craft file of the most recent incarnation of my CTV...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvkks7ihzc5xtxw/CTV.craft?dl=0  (ignore the RD-856 radial engines on the internal probe body as that is still a WIP,  and as I haven't actually launched it yet the RCS is not configured correctly).

And my list of currently installed mods...most of which should not be relevant to the craft file in question.

I should add that this is not a game-killer for me, just a pet project.  I personally feel it is essential to be able to construct working fuel-cell-like compliant sub-systems as part of RO/RSS/RF/R* play.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Wallygator

[Wallygator]

Any further thought on this matter?

If not, I will have to let it die.

Sadly frustrating as this should not be so difficult - its just 3 resources. and 1 part.

A polite request to @NathanKell for clarity?

EDIT: I've been gradually deleting mods to see if something changes...  no luck so far... Assured I used service module tanks... eliminated any intervening parts which may occlude cross-feeding (not that that should matter), etc.  I have no hair otherwise I would pull it out ;-)

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by Wallygator

[NathanKell]

I got nuthin, sorry can't repro any issue here.

[Dman979]

Have you tried to run a fuel line from the tank to the cells?

[Starwaster]

You're missing TAC Life Support which is a requirement because the fuel cell  needs TacGenericConverter module. There's no fallback to any other generator or converter that I can see in the repo.

(which sounds like it would be a good idea to me since not everyone wants ECLSS mods installed, but what the hell do I know)

Edited July 15, 2016 by Starwaster

[Wallygator]

12 hours ago, Starwaster said:

You're missing TAC Life Support which is a requirement because the fuel cell  needs TacGenericConverter module. There's no fallback to any other generator or converter that I can see in the repo.

(which sounds like it would be a good idea to me since not everyone wants ECLSS mods installed, but what the hell do I know)

Interesting.

I'll install TAC Life Support and see what happens.

Frankly, I don't have a desire to undergo play with life support at the moment, but will give it a try and report back.

13 hours ago, NathanKell said:

I got nuthin, sorry can't repro any issue here.

Thanks @NathanKell for trying  - and more importantly for everything else!

12 hours ago, Dman979 said:

Have you tried to run a fuel line from the tank to the cells?

Yes.

[Wallygator]

OK...

I installed TAC life support and... no joy.

So here is my test mule:

http://

And on the launch pad:

http://

And, my mod list is shown  about 6 post up.

Can anyone tell me why these fuel cells do not work?  I find no documentation so far to explain the proper implementation schema -- any help finding it is appreciated.

AND if TAC Life Support is REQUIRED for fuel cell parts to work then why is TAC Life Support shown as an "recommended" but not "required" for realism overhaul to work?

Once again, thank you to all for your contribution to my RO education ;-)

EDIT: Here's an idea... Can someone who has achieved a working fuel cell implementation in RO/RF please post their complete mod list so I can replicate it exactly and then compare against my non working setup.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Wallygator

[Starwaster]

56 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

OK...

I installed TAC life support and... no joy.

So here is my test mule:

 

EDIT: Here's an idea... Can someone who has achieved a working fuel cell implementation in RO/RF please post their complete mod list so I can replicate it exactly and then compare against my non working setup.

I'll install TAC and check it out.

[Starwaster]

@Wallygator

Stupid question time.

Did you try turning it on?

[Wallygator]

29 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

@Wallygator

Stupid question time.

Did you try turning it on?

lol!!!  Yes...  I tried every option I could find ;-)

[Starwaster]

49 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

lol!!!  Yes...  I tried every option I could find ;-)

Then I don't know what to tell you. I just installed TAC through CKAN, made a Mk1 pod like you had, tank on top, fuel cell on that. launched and then right clicked fuel cell and click activate

Maybe you should try putting it in a box of rice. Or maybe it's time for logs and ModuleManager.ConfigCache files.

[Wallygator]

Just now, Starwaster said:

Then I don't know what to tell you. I just installed TAC through CKAN, made a Mk1 pod like you had, tank on top, fuel cell on that. launched and then right clicked fuel cell and click activate

Maybe you should try putting it in a box of rice. Or maybe it's time for logs and ModuleManager.ConfigCache files.

"a box of rice" - I don't understand the reference.

Can you specifically list the mods you have installed via CKAN?  

I'm on a mac and have had difficulty getting CKAN working so therefore I install manually.

Tell me what mods you have installed and I will try and replicate.

[Starwaster]

39 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

"a box of rice" - I don't understand the reference.

Can you specifically list the mods you have installed via CKAN?  

I'm on a mac and have had difficulty getting CKAN working so therefore I install manually.

Tell me what mods you have installed and I will try and replicate.

"Put it in a box of rice": Advice often given to people whose mobile phones (or some other electronics) have gotten wet in the hopes that the rice will absorb all the moisture from the device and allow it to eventually be salvaged.

Mods: Most of these were installed automatically as dependencies for Realism Overhaul. There's not much else in here that wasn't install as part of that package because this installation is for testing Real Fuels boiloff changes in an RSS environment, so it's intentionally sparse.

Spoiler

Environment Info
Win32NT 7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF  Args: KSP_x64.exe -force-opengl

Mod DLLs found:
Stock assembly: Assembly-CSharp v0.0.0.0
ModuleManager.2.6.25 v2.6.25.0
SolverEngines v2.1.0.0 / v2.3.0.0
AJE v2.7.2.0
DeadlyReentry v7.4.7.0
EngineGroupController v1.0.0.0
UnityGUIFramework v1.0.0.0
ModularFlightIntegrator v1.0.0.0 / v1.1.6.0
FerramAerospaceResearch v0.15.7.2
ferramGraph v1.3.0.0
Scale_Redist v1.0.0.0
KerbalJointReinforcement v3.1.7.0
HyperEdit v1.5.2.1
Kopernicus.Components v1.0.0.0
Kopernicus.OnDemand v1.0.0.0
Kopernicus v1.0.0.0
KSCSwitcher v1.0.5956.23563
MechJeb2 v2.5.1.0 / vDev #623 Sarbian / v2.5.8.0
ProceduralFairings v0.0.0.0
ProceduralParts v1.2.5.0
RealChute v1.4.5964.18052 / v1.4.1.1
RealFuels v0.10.8.21586 / v0.10.8.5.33-1991-dirty / v10.8.5.33
MiniAVC v1.0.3.2
RealismOverhaul v0.11.2.0
RealSolarSystem v0.11.4.0
RSSTimeFormatter v1.0.5974.18293
SmokeScreen v2.6.15.0
Stock assembly: KSPSteamCtrlr v0.0.1.33
Stock assembly: SaveUpgradePipeline.Scripts v1.0.0.2 / v1.0.0.21
Stock assembly: Steamworks.NET v8.0.0.0 / v8.0.0
MiniAVC v1.0.3.2
TacLifeSupport v0.0.1.0

Folders and files in GameData:
AJE
CommunityResourcePack
DeadlyReentry
EngineGroupController
FerramAerospaceResearch
KerbalJointReinforcement
Kerbaltek
Kopernicus
KSCSwitcher
MechJeb2
ModularFlightIntegrator
ProceduralFairings
ProceduralParts
RealChute
RealFuels
RealismOverhaul
RealPlume
RealSolarSystem
RSS-Textures
RSSDateTime
SmokeScreen
SolverEngines

 

[Wallygator]

38 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

"Put it in a box of rice": Advice often given to people whose mobile phones (or some other electronics) have gotten wet in the hopes that the rice will absorb all the moisture from the device and allow it to eventually be salvaged.

Mods: Most of these were installed automatically as dependencies for Realism Overhaul. There's not much else in here that wasn't install as part of that package because this installation is for testing Real Fuels boiloff changes in an RSS environment, so it's intentionally sparse.

  Reveal hidden contents

Environment Info
Win32NT 7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF  Args: KSP_x64.exe -force-opengl

Mod DLLs found:
Stock assembly: Assembly-CSharp v0.0.0.0
ModuleManager.2.6.25 v2.6.25.0
SolverEngines v2.1.0.0 / v2.3.0.0
AJE v2.7.2.0
DeadlyReentry v7.4.7.0
EngineGroupController v1.0.0.0
UnityGUIFramework v1.0.0.0
ModularFlightIntegrator v1.0.0.0 / v1.1.6.0
FerramAerospaceResearch v0.15.7.2
ferramGraph v1.3.0.0
Scale_Redist v1.0.0.0
KerbalJointReinforcement v3.1.7.0
HyperEdit v1.5.2.1
Kopernicus.Components v1.0.0.0
Kopernicus.OnDemand v1.0.0.0
Kopernicus v1.0.0.0
KSCSwitcher v1.0.5956.23563
MechJeb2 v2.5.1.0 / vDev #623 Sarbian / v2.5.8.0
ProceduralFairings v0.0.0.0
ProceduralParts v1.2.5.0
RealChute v1.4.5964.18052 / v1.4.1.1
RealFuels v0.10.8.21586 / v0.10.8.5.33-1991-dirty / v10.8.5.33
MiniAVC v1.0.3.2
RealismOverhaul v0.11.2.0
RealSolarSystem v0.11.4.0
RSSTimeFormatter v1.0.5974.18293
SmokeScreen v2.6.15.0
Stock assembly: KSPSteamCtrlr v0.0.1.33
Stock assembly: SaveUpgradePipeline.Scripts v1.0.0.2 / v1.0.0.21
Stock assembly: Steamworks.NET v8.0.0.0 / v8.0.0
MiniAVC v1.0.3.2
TacLifeSupport v0.0.1.0

Folders and files in GameData:
AJE
CommunityResourcePack
DeadlyReentry
EngineGroupController
FerramAerospaceResearch
KerbalJointReinforcement
Kerbaltek
Kopernicus
KSCSwitcher
MechJeb2
ModularFlightIntegrator
ProceduralFairings
ProceduralParts
RealChute
RealFuels
RealismOverhaul
RealPlume
RealSolarSystem
RSS-Textures
RSSDateTime
SmokeScreen
SolverEngines

 

Thank you for the reference regarding boxes of rice.  In the modern world rice is sold in microwaveable bags - FYI. (unfortunately, because rice cooked from raw is so much better)

I will now attempt to construct a modded KSP install which matches the info you have kindly provided.

I did attempt to download and install CKAN but the install instructions were completely incomplete regarding OSX.  Someone (the one) who wrote the instructions should be relieved from their duty - in my opinion. Apologies if it was you :-)

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Wallygator

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, Wallygator said:

Thank you for the reference regarding boxes of rice.  In the modern world rice is sold in microwaveable bags - FYI. (unfortunately, because rice cooked from raw is so much better)

I will now attempt to construct a modded KSP install which matches the info you have kindly provided.

I did attempt to download and install CKAN but the install instructions were completely incomplete regarding OSX.  Someone (the one) who wrote the instructions should be relieved from their duty - in my opinion. Apologies if it was you :-)

 

Nope, I had nothing to do with any CKAN instructions, any more than I had anything to do with the move to microwaveable rice. Microwaveable rice is the Devil's grain.

[jarraya]

@Wallygator was having a similar problem

make sure your fuel is Liquid Oxygen and Liquid Hydrogen (not just oxygen)

with TACLS, try adding an empty tank with some capacity for water