Ladders...and snakes, Oh my!

[strider3]

I don't understand what is so hard about getting a kerbal back into a landed ship?? On almost every landed science mission, I have to fight with this. I build ladders from the crew hatch straight down to a deployable "mobility enhancer". The kerbal climbs down the ladder, no problem. My kerbonaut does his thing, gathering info and science and returns to the ladder. He grabs it, climbs up...and there always seems to be a section, between the added ladders and the command modules built in "steps" that causes him/her to just...fall off! I'm about to leave Bob on the Mun as I cannot get him passed the section of ladder I added that joins the command modules built in steps? The heat shield "cover" seems to be a problem? At this point I suggest we get rid of any "weirdness" when trying to have a kerbonaut reboard? If he can EVA out of the darn craft, climb down my ladders and "mobility enhancers" and perform his science gathering...he should be able to re-enter the darn thing...don't you think??

GRRRRRRrrrrrrrr!

I don't want to leave Bob on the Mun, but I will.

Help me SAVE BOB!

[bewing]

Bob can FLY on the Mun using his RCS jetpack. Just fly up to the hatch, and it'll let you board.

[strider3]

Bob doesn't seem to get much beyond half way up to the hatch when "jetpacking" on the Mun from the surface...and then he just falls back to the surface. And he can't jetpack when on the ladder?

Unless I'm doing it wrong, of course.

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by strider3

[strider3]

My whole point here is that....if he can climb DOWN the ladders and "mobility enhancers" I built, without any "issues", he should be able to climb back UP them, also without "issues". Personally I think it's all "overkill"...if I can grab the ladder on returning to the ship, I should have a "BOARD" option, simple as that.

I feel like we are missing the "big picture" with this issue. It seems like some kind of graphics issue to me as I've always had problems putting ladders on the sides of landers that will allow a kerbonaut to climb back up and re-board the craft? Why spend that amount of energy? If he/she can grab the ladder...end of story...reboard option immediately. The idea is to explore space...not deal with niggly issues which keep you from performing the simplest of tasks, don't you think?

Anyway, my 2 aggravated cents worth.

[strider3]

Well...I saved Bob. 7 tries at "jetpacking" up to the command module hatch. I still say it's stupid overkill, in this case. None of that should have been required...climb down the ladder...climb up the ladder...simple as that.

Again, I say, it's missing the entire point, the big picture, of KSP. I'm here to explore the solar system...not fight with simple tasks caused by graphics issues like the placement of ladders. Can we get back to the real reason we do this? Get rid of the niggly stuff, like reboarding? If you "grab"...you have the "board" option, simple solution to any "issues" with ladders and mobility enhancers graphics and placement.

Try not to spend so much time making what should be the simple, easy stuff hard, OK? I got a Mun lander into Kerbin orbit, I transferred to Mun orbit, I burned to reduce my orbit altitude twice, I set up for a landing at the twins, I landed safely at the twins and gathered science and EVA data...and then I couldn't get my kerbonaut back into the ship???? C'mon Man!!!!

[bewing]

I'm not sure I agree. Why should it be simple easy stuff? Don't you think a real astronaut might have trouble reboarding his ship if the ladders are built wrong?

You do know you can test all this out on the launchpad before you launch, right? Just launch the lander all by itself and see if the kerbonaut can climb down and up succesfully? Don't you think a real space program would test such things? I certainly test all my stuff that way.

I consider the orbital stuff to be considerably easier than planetary stuff. Docking with klaws and no RCS control is certainly still the hardest. But exploring celestial bodies is dangerous and tricky and sometimes you have to try something 7 times before you can figure out how to make it work. Jetpacking up to a command module hatch is a vital and valuable skill that you need to have. Depending on your design, kerbonauts may be able to jump halfway up their lander, and then jump the second half -- or sometimes jump all the way over it. Another valuable skill. If your ship is parked on a tilt, kerbonauts can sometimes climb all the way up the side of the rocket, by spamming the F key. Another valuable skill.

Just bypassing all of that with an "OK, you've grabbed a ladder attached to some part of your ship that's a million miles from any hatch, now you can board" thing would take too much challenge out of the game.

[Plusck]

2 hours ago, Victor3 said:

Well...I saved Bob. 7 tries at "jetpacking" up to the command module hatch. I still say it's stupid overkill, in this case. None of that should have been required...climb down the ladder...climb up the ladder...simple as that.

Again, I say, it's missing the entire point, the big picture, of KSP. I'm here to explore the solar system...not fight with simple tasks caused by graphics issues like the placement of ladders. Can we get back to the real reason we do this? Get rid of the niggly stuff, like reboarding? If you "grab"...you have the "board" option, simple solution to any "issues" with ladders and mobility enhancers graphics and placement.

Try not to spend so much time making what should be the simple, easy stuff hard, OK? I got a Mun lander into Kerbin orbit, I transferred to Mun orbit, I burned to reduce my orbit altitude twice, I set up for a landing at the twins, I landed safely at the twins and gathered science and EVA data...and then I couldn't get my kerbonaut back into the ship???? C'mon Man!!!!

I quite agree - this is one area where the game can be immensely frustrating.

However, as @bewing says, this can be "solved" by using the jetpack which works fine on the vast majority of planets and moons, and can be tested easily on Kerbin on the launchpad.

However (however), testing on Kerbin doesn't entirely cover the case of Eve, where climbing is harder still, so this again can be a source of frustration when you get around to landing on Eve where jetpacks don't help and where lander design makes ladder placement very difficult.

However (however (however)), you have to admit that KSP isn't a climbing game - it isn't Tomb Raider or Assassin's Creed - so it is understandable that Kerbals have no vocation and no real mechanic for swinging derringly from fingerhold to vine to trellis to ledge...

However (however (however (however))), there is room for improvement and one can only hope that this will be addressed and corrected soon. It is somewhat ridiculous that Kerbals cannot negotiate a very slight mismatch between two ladders, can only top a ladder by vaulting over the last rungs (and therefore fail miserably to do so under the higher gravity of Eve) and have such fiddly controls that they seem bent on letting everything go (and falling, jumping up while slightly under the ship and sending it tumbling into destruction) and often steadfast in their decision to climb the wrong ladder (because if standing on a ledge with an up ladder and a down ladder, there is no way of choosing which direction it will climb).

[Snark]

10 hours ago, bewing said:

Bob can FLY on the Mun using his RCS jetpack. Just fly up to the hatch, and it'll let you board.

^ This.  Kerbal jetpacks are really overpowered and extremely useful.  You can use them to fly just about anywhere except Kerbin, Eve, Laythe, and Tylo.  Practicing using them while in gravity is a handy skill to have.

9 hours ago, Victor3 said:

I'm here to explore the solar system...not fight with simple tasks caused by graphics issues like the placement of ladders.

Sure, it's frustrating.  There's a bug there.  Squad should fix the bug, then the problem is solved.

This bug has been around a long time, I've found it frustrating myself.  Presumably they'll get around to it at some point, though just when they do will depend on 1. how hard it is to fix, technically, and 2. how it stacks up in priority with other things they need to fix.

9 hours ago, Victor3 said:

If you "grab"...you have the "board" option, simple solution to any "issues" with ladders and mobility enhancers graphics and placement.

Except that not everybody would like that.  I would hate it, myself.  I like the idea that my kerbals are physical critters in a physical environment, and that they need to clamber down to the surface and back up again.  I like that I have to design something that works-- not just "the rocket engines will get it to orbit", but also "my kerbal needs to be able to board again", and "the RCS thrusters are placed well enough to use for docking", and "the drills are located where they can reach the ground", and a whole slew of other details.  "Grab a ladder, insta-board"-- I would hate that.  It would make it feel less like "yay I'm on another planet", and more like "I'm just playing a video game."  Major buzzkill.

I mean, heck, if we're gonna do that, why not just scrap ladders entirely?  Why not just make it so that if you're standing anywhere within 10 meters of the craft, you can instantly be aboard?  Where do you draw the line?

I would strongly oppose a "solution" like this.  Rather:  just fix the behavior so that ladders are more intuitive, i.e. "if it looks to a casual player eyeball like the ladders ought to connect, then it should connect."  It's a bug.  Fix it.

8 hours ago, bewing said:

I'm not sure I agree. Why should it be simple easy stuff? Don't you think a real astronaut might have trouble reboarding his ship if the ladders are built wrong? ... Just bypassing all of that with an "OK, you've grabbed a ladder attached to some part of your ship that's a million miles from any hatch, now you can board" thing would take too much challenge out of the game.

^ This, exactly!

8 hours ago, bewing said:

You do know you can test all this out on the launchpad before you launch, right? Just launch the lander all by itself and see if the kerbonaut can climb down and up succesfully?

^ Yes, agreed here, I do this, too.

However, I do agree with the OP that it's frustrating.  I shouldn't have to test this, any more than I should have to test whether a spotlight might have a burned-out bulb in it.  It should "just work."  The ladders are simply too finicky; it ought to be that if they basically look reasonable to the player's eyes, then it ought to be a no-brainer that the kerbal can climb it.

Of course, it's easy for me to say that; I didn't write the code, I have no clue how difficult or complex that would be to code.  It may be a tall order, I dunno.  But from the player's perspective, I'd say it really needs some attention.  (And while we're at it, can we fix "ladder drift"?  It's maddening that kerbals won't just stay put on ladders.)

[Mjarf]

This is why I always test the ladders thoroughly before clearing any craft for launch, I have encountered this issue many times and it's very frustrating indeed.

[Corona688]

I have no idea why it was so hard to board the craft.  I'd just be wild guessing without a screenshot.

[Zhetaan]

13 hours ago, Victor3 said:

Well...I saved Bob. 7 tries at "jetpacking" up to the command module hatch.

Ancient Japanese proverb:  Nanakorobi yaoki

Roughly translated:  Fall off ladder seven times, fly up to hatch eight times.

Also, if nothing else, please take with you the notion that even though KSP can be all about exploration of strange, new worlds, you should take nothing for granted.  As others have said, it's beyond frustrating that these things don't work intuitively, but the best time to find out about it is when you can do something about it: i.e., on the pad.

[Vanamonde]

Test every stage of a ship on the pad before flying it anywhere. Avoids no end of trouble. 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

47 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Test every stage of a ship on the pad before flying it anywhere. Avoids no end of trouble. 

Then test it again with gravity hacked.

Just to be sure.

[FyunchClick]

2 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Then test it again with gravity hacked.

Just to be sure.

^ This, and then hyperedit yourself to a 400km kerbin orbit and repeat.

I had a ship where I spent hours tweaking ladders and mobility enhancers to be able putter around inside a cargo bay zero g without jetpack, until it worked fine on the ground and in LKO, only to discover on my mission propper that my kerbal would be flung violently from the hatch and into some equipment getting stuck in ragdoll, because if some mobility enhancer just slightly too close to the hatch, which only happened above a certain orbital altitude. I heard somewhere that there's a bit of a difference in some calculations from a certain altitude up, which was probably to blame.

[Tyko]

I once attached an antenna to the other side of my capsule with symmetry accidentally on - caused a second antenna to be placed over the hatch. I wasn't until landed on the Mun that I found out the antenna blocked the hatch from working...now I always test before I take off.

[strider3]

Let me apologize to everyone here. I should not have posted in the aggravated mood I was in. You have all been nothing but helpful with my questions in the past and I should not have taken out my aggravation here. And I hear you on testing before flight...sheesh!

I am sorry, gang.

Vic the Newbal...who should breathe, once in a while.

Edited July 15, 2016 by strider3

[Snark]

18 minutes ago, Victor3 said:

Let me apologize to everyone here. I should not have posted in the aggravated mood I was in. You have all been nothing but helpful with my questions in the past and I should not have taken out my aggravation here. And I hear you on testing before flight...sheesh!

I am sorry, gang.

Naw, it's okay, we've all been there!  Glad we got it sorted. 

[strider3]

And, that being said, I agree that Kerbals are SUPPOSED to be maneuvered around, and I don't want to change anything just because my ladders don't work. I will test that kind of thing on the pad, in the future. 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suggestion:  Have angle snap on while building your rocket.  I've never experienced the misalignment problem doing this.