Help? I can't land my plane :(

[DracoSilverpath]

1 hour ago, Azimech said:

Are you 100% sure there's no problem with the B9-FAR lift/drag values? I'd replace all wings with stock and try again. Something smells bad.

 

Besides ... tweakscale is known as another source of problems.

Well, just tried that with stock wings, no joy....so that's not it.

But, I fiddled with a few things, including more airbrakes, and -almost- got it into a mandible state. I got it down around 70ms before it seemed to catch on something on the ground and send me skyward, but it actually touched down and didn't immediate bounce like crazy, so descent speed and horizontal speed are likely my culprits here. Thing is, I just have no real good idea as to how to slow it down enough!

The airbrakes have -kinda- worked, but they seem to nullify my control surfaces and cause them to be mostly ineffective, so once it goes down below 100, even though the craft will pitch around a little bit, it still falls out of the sky, so I can't bring it in art a slow enough speed.

1 hour ago, Azimech said:

I'm also busy with your plane.

don't spose you've had any luck?

[Azimech]

15 minutes ago, DracoSilverpath said:

Well, just tried that with stock wings, no joy....so that's not it.

But, I fiddled with a few things, including more airbrakes, and -almost- got it into a mandible state. I got it down around 70ms before it seemed to catch on something on the ground and send me skyward, but it actually touched down and didn't immediate bounce like crazy, so descent speed and horizontal speed are likely my culprits here. Thing is, I just have no real good idea as to how to slow it down enough!

The airbrakes have -kinda- worked, but they seem to nullify my control surfaces and cause them to be mostly ineffective, so once it goes down below 100, even though the craft will pitch around a little bit, it still falls out of the sky, so I can't bring it in art a slow enough speed.

don't spose you've had any luck?

I've identified the problem: it's FAR making the landing gear extremely jumpy. Also the medium landing gear is too strong for such a light plane, choosing the smaller one helps a lot.

[DracoSilverpath]

1 minute ago, Azimech said:

I've identified the problem: it's FAR making the landing gear extremely jumpy. Also the medium landing gear is too strong for such a light plane, choosing the smaller one helps a lot.

I see~ are the small ones usable? Last I ever touched them, they liked to either collapse or explode!

[Azimech]

Just now, DracoSilverpath said:

I see~ are the small ones usable? Last I ever touched them, they liked to either collapse or explode!

You mean the non-retractables? They're the worst. 

[DracoSilverpath]

Just now, Azimech said:

You mean the non-retractables? They're the worst. 

No I was referring to the small collapsible ones.

[NKL]

Did you try the values I gave for the gear? Just lower the spring mate ! you want something very spongy, not jumpy. Try it with extreme for testing purposes.

Like 0.1 spring, 1.5 dampener. especially for those medium gear. Default spring (1.0) are stronger than smal landing gear, as azimech stated earlier. No spring, no jump. Worst case scenario, you'll destroy the landing gear on landing.

Also, try to land just next to the landing strip, in the flat grass. I had issue with the runway myself.

Edited August 31, 2016 by NKL

[Azimech]

29 minutes ago, DracoSilverpath said:

No I was referring to the small collapsible ones.

Those are doing great.

I've got something for ya. It's not as glamorous as your design but flies fine. I made a taildragger out of it, I like taildraggers. And because I distrust B9/Tweakscale, used stock parts except the cockpit. Landing gear problems are gone. Landing speed with tanks full: around 70m/s. With tanks empty: around 60m/s. https://www.dropbox.com/s/fd6u6jtxsytcyzx/ASC Oppurtunity-Ascension MK2.craft?dl=0

http://imgur.com/a/12fIy

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Azimech

[DracoSilverpath]

Thanks everyone for all your help on this, though i think I'm just gonna be done with it entirely for now. Until I can make some sort of VTOL craft, I don't think I'll be making any more airplanes in the near future, as I've now spent a combined week or so trying to simply land, and have failed miserably in every attempt.

The note about min/maxing the spring/dampener did help a lot, and probly would work great, if I had any more patience left with it to get it all fine tuned, but I just...don't. Out of 50+ takeoffs, I've had 0 successful returns and a mountain of frustration...and I just can't take it anymore

Edited August 31, 2016 by DracoSilverpath

[TheGuyNamedAlan]

1 hour ago, DracoSilverpath said:

Thanks everyone for all your help on this, though i think I'm just gonna be done with it entirely for now. Until I can make some sort of VTOL craft, I don't think I'll be making any more airplanes in the near future, as I've now spent a combined week or so trying to simply land, and have failed miserably in every attempt.

The note about min/maxing the spring/dampener did help a lot, and probably would work great, if I had any more patience left with it to get it all fine tuned, but I just...don't. Out of 50+ takeoffs, I've had 0 successful returns and a mountain of frustration...and I just can't take it anymore

next time, put more/bigger wings on your plane so your landing speed is 20-30m/s. give it more lift o it can fly slower.

[Azimech]

At least I've spent two hours using mods I never use and troubleshooting someone else's plane and exercise my own skills to learn something.

[TheGuyNamedAlan]

3 minutes ago, Azimech said:

At least I've spent two hours using mods I never use and troubleshooting someone else's plane and exercise my own skills to learn something.

true

[DracoSilverpath]

On 8/31/2016 at 3:31 PM, Azimech said:

At least I've spent two hours using mods I never use and troubleshooting someone else's plane and exercise my own skills to learn something.

Your effort was not in vain, and was much appreciated! I took the night off from KSP, had a good night's rest, and decided to give it another go from more of your approach, and came up with descent results!

Its not near as good looking as my first design (though it wasn't super special anyways) and is probly a little overly complicated with the airbrakes and a drogue chute on the back, but hey, it can land! I used much larger wings and control surfaces, some less powerful engines, and the chute, and it is far more maneuverable now, and is perfectly stable down to around 50ms, so landings are definitely possible now.

 

[Azimech]

Good job! Congrats!

[DracoSilverpath]

Just now, Azimech said:

Good job! Congrats!

Thanks! now to progress up to basic SSTO's.....(this is gonna end badly for me, ins't it.. ) 

[Azimech]

1 hour ago, DracoSilverpath said:

Thanks! now to progress up to basic SSTO's.....(this is gonna end badly for me, ins't it.. ) 

SSTO's are a form of art, they're among the most difficult to get right. FAR might actually make them easier due to overall less drag but ... then the engines are OP and the creator suggests to install a another mod to nerf them. Last SSTO's I've built are from a few years back so can't really help you there.

[DracoSilverpath]

1 minute ago, Azimech said:

SSTO's are a form of art, they're among the most difficult to get right. FAR might actually make them easier due to overall less drag but ... then the engines are OP and the creator suggests to install a another mod to nerf them. Last SSTO's I've built are from a few years back so can't really help you there.

No worries! If/when I get to those I'll post up another thing for that  Thanks for all your help!

[Jebadiah Kerban]

This is fishy,

Whats the weight? try increasing the weight and put more powerful engines...

Ive replicated the design, No problems

:/ seems to be an issue with you,

Have you hacked gravity? xDDD

Still, when touching down, flare at 3-6*

Then force the nose down... after some practise, this gets easy, 

Oh, and also quicksave before landing in case

:thumb:

[Fellow314]

I have recently discovered, because I'm sometimes a bit slow, that the occasional landing problems I get, particularly with smaller craft, are a product of putting the nose wheel too far forwards on the craft, encouraging it to bounce back up after touchdown.  Moving the nose-wheel further back on pretty much everything has been a major success.

 

[Azimech]

1 hour ago, Fellow314 said:

I have recently discovered, because I'm sometimes a bit slow, that the occasional landing problems I get, particularly with smaller craft, are a product of putting the nose wheel too far forwards on the craft, encouraging it to bounce back up after touchdown.  Moving the nose-wheel further back on pretty much everything has been a major success.

 

It also helps to have a nosewheel situated higher so the nose of the craft points a bit down when landing. This does mean you need more elevator control authority or a longer tail for taking off.
The alternative is to build taildraggers. Although they've fallen out of grace in modern aviation, I still embrace them. They're ideal for rough terrain but more demanding of the average pilot, at least in real life.
A combination of the two is nice as well: two sets of main landing gear, one behind and one in front of the CoM. Add both a front and tail wheel and you can actually choose between the two. Great for rough terrain, loading and unloading cargo. Some of my designs make extensive use of this feature.

[Majorjim!]

5 hours ago, Azimech said:

SSTO's are a form of art, they're among the most difficult to get right.

Not any more! With a bit of patients and time in game they are very easy indeed. The KSP engines are super OP and as long as you don't fly like an idiot they are a breeze to get to orbit. Low TWR SSTOs are harder than high TWR as you have to fly a different flight path but once you know the ascent to take they are very easy indeed. I prefer high TWR SSTOs as years of rocket building has made me impatient!