There's dirt in that there dirt - living off the land on Mars.

[kerbiloid]

This is exactly what I suggest until (see above about algae).

If you got sad about the rounded reduced optimized chickens, it's just a thought experiment to get clear, what can be reduced. As a result: nothing would stay from a chicken except an unicellular mess with taste of chicken.

[GregA]

http://i.imgur.com/YBvBAEW.jpg

[Technical Ben]

I doubt there are intermediaries that "work" well. You have a full chicken, a problematic over bred farm animal, and meat in a vat. But something between the Vat and a chicken is very problematic.

Why? We don't have a "car" and a "sled" with things inbetween often. You cannot have half a wheel. You either have a wheeled car, a powered sled, or a sled. Anything with half a wheel breaks down and fails to function.

On Mars? Resupply, grow in a vat, or big green houses. It is probably best for the first attempt to be all resources supplied from earth, then used unclosed cycle. Then from there supplement with Martian materials. Once that is going, a closed cycle Earth supplied system with some resupply added later from Martian resources... then a totally Mars sufficient system could be looked at.

We learn to walk before we run.

[KSK]

OK, shifting the question of food supply back a step - what is the minimum set of nutrients needed for producing food and how do we set about getting them? What can we get from Mars in the early days of a colony? What do we need to bring from Earth? How might food production develop over time?

I'm defining food broadly - plants, insects, microorganisms, livestock, meat-in-a-vat. Whatever.

Edited October 2, 2016 by KSK

[GregA]

9 minutes ago, Technical Ben said:

I doubt there are intermediaries that "work" well. You have a full chicken, a problematic over bred farm animal, and meat in a vat. But something between the Vat and a chicken is very problematic.

Why? We don't have a "car" and a "sled" with things inbetween often. You cannot have half a wheel. You either have a wheeled car, a powered sled, or a sled. Anything with half a wheel breaks down and fails to function.

On Mars? Resupply, grow in a vat, or big green houses. It is probably best for the first attempt to be all resources supplied from earth, then used unclosed cycle. Then from there supplement with Martian materials. Once that is going, a closed cycle Earth supplied system with some resupply added later from Martian resources... then a totally Mars sufficient system could be looked at.

We learn to walk before we run.

Why would we ever want to close the cycle???  It is a crap tier planet.  We can do whatever we want to it.  Vent toxic gasses.  Experiment with atomic bombs.  Heck make atomic piles by just throwing fissile materials and moderators into a big pile and let it burn.  Run some pipes though it and harvest steam.  There is zero obligation to be environmentally responsible on Mars...

Seriously, it is a dead planet with some of the nastiest chemicals around just sitting on its surface.  I say strip mine it.

Edited October 2, 2016 by GregA

[Technical Ben]

The thread title. It asks if we can use the dirt to grow food. So I made a comment on it. Mainly on my opinion of the feasibility. But also on logical steps to get there (which is basic, anyone could figure out).

I made no comment on environmental responsibility. "Closed system" is referring to the food supply not needing constant resupplies from Earth. Why? Because perhaps people on Mars might want to eat a tomato and not wait 6 months. Perhaps they just like gardening. It was not referring to energy budget or environmental impact.

Chillax?

[KSK]

3 minutes ago, GregA said:

Why would we ever want to close the cycle???  It is a crap tier planet.  We can do whatever we want to it.  Vent toxic gasses.  Experiment with atomic bombs.  Heck make atomic piles by just throwing fissile materials and moderators into a big pile and let it burn.  Run some pipes though it and harvest steam.  There is zero obligation to be environmentally responsible on Mars...

Efficiency. The more closed your cycles, the less you need to import from Earth. This is the main reason but also:

Aesthetics. Tourism is one of the few things Mars will have going for it commercially, so lets not spoil that unspoiled wilderness with piles of radioactive waste.

NIMBYism. Life on Mars is going to be psychologically challenging anyway, living in close proximity to lots of people in a fairly confined space. Why make things harder by fouling up the neighbourhood with spoil heaps and clouds of toxic gas. Resources will be limited so hiding all that junk over the horizon probably won't be an option either.

Expansion. The starter colony will presumably want to expand at some point. Expanding through open-air nuclear reactors doesn't sound fun.

Habitability. Mars might be a crap tier planet (debatable)  but it's probably the best one we've currently got after Earth. Lets not make it any worse than it has to be.

 

[GregA]

7 hours ago, Technical Ben said:

The thread title. It asks if we can use the dirt to grow food. So I made a comment on it. Mainly on my opinion of the feasibility. But also on logical steps to get there (which is basic, anyone could figure out).

I made no comment on environmental responsibility. "Closed system" is referring to the food supply not needing constant resupplies from Earth. Why? Because perhaps people on Mars might want to eat a tomato and not wait 6 months. Perhaps they just like gardening. It was not referring to energy budget or environmental impact.

Chillax?

Lol it was a joke.  Those are all things people have suggested as activities that might terraform the planet.  Caustic gasses that act as green house gasses.  Nuclear bombs on the poles to release water ice and co2.  Several million tons of of Thorium and moderator placed into a pile and covered with neutron moderators would melt its way to core and reinitiate a molten core on mars giving it a magnetic field.

But yeah, im partial to zucchini in my garden stir fry.

[Technical Ben]

One does not plan geoengineering. The planet plans bioengineering.

Life changes a planet. But it takes inordinate amounts of time.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Technical Ben

[Thor Wotansen]

So I've been doing some research on sustainable food production that could potentially be done in a low G environment and I believe that aquaponics is the best solution.  Aquaponics combines hydroponics with raising fish in a symbiotic growing system where the plants clean the water for the fish and the fish provide nutrients for the plants.  I'm currently trying to find a way to close the loop with a way to feed the fish from an extended system that encompasses human waste disposal and possibly worms or black soldier flys as a protein source for the fish.  Ideally most if not all of the oxygen  for the colony could be provided by the plants.  The main stumbling blocks would be water, growing media, time.  Once an aquaponics system is going it can use as little as 2% of the water conventional agriculture uses with virtually no waste, however it does take a lot of water to get going.  On the plus side, you can grow almost any herb/veggie in an aquaponics system, including root crops like carrots and potatoes.

[GregA]

16 hours ago, Thor Wotansen said:

So I've been doing some research on sustainable food production that could potentially be done in a low G environment and I believe that aquaponics is the best solution.  Aquaponics combines hydroponics with raising fish in a symbiotic growing system where the plants clean the water for the fish and the fish provide nutrients for the plants.  I'm currently trying to find a way to close the loop with a way to feed the fish from an extended system that encompasses human waste disposal and possibly worms or black soldier flys as a protein source for the fish.  Ideally most if not all of the oxygen  for the colony could be provided by the plants.  The main stumbling blocks would be water, growing media, time.  Once an aquaponics system is going it can use as little as 2% of the water conventional agriculture uses with virtually no waste, however it does take a lot of water to get going.  On the plus side, you can grow almost any herb/veggie in an aquaponics system, including root crops like carrots and potatoes.

What is a lot of water?  From some real quick back of the napkin calculation based on picture of the fuel tank that Mr Musk showed us, they will be harvesting on the order of a million gallons of water just to fuel one return rocket trip (more if they use reverse osmosis to purify the water).   So you will have the equipment there to harvest and process a substantial amount of water already.  Additionally, I suspect they will use a reverse osmosis plant to make pure water as well (they want to inhibit HCL synthesis in their electrolytic reactor).  That process on Mars leaves you with the percolate brine.  From that brine we can further electrolyze the calcium, nitrogen, and phosphorus that is needed to feed the inputs to this hybrid aquaponics/hydroponics system.  At the end of that level of processing, we are left with the Chlorine gas.  As I previously explained that is the element we need to get started with synthesis of PVC.  Just about every other bulk chemical we need is sitting there on the surface in bladder tanks.

The only pieces of equipment we need is the electrolyzer to break the brine down and recover the Chlorine, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Calcium.  A reactor for the HCL, A reaction chamber to synthesize the PVC.  An extrusion mold to make PVC pipe, and a 3D printer to print PVC parts.

That plus electricity (lots of co-generation possibilities here, but solar and nuclear will be needed as well) and time is all we need to make sprawling fields of hermetically sealed greenhouses.  We can even add supplemental heat and light to the greenhouses by making limelight with the acetylene gas...

[todofwar]

49 minutes ago, GregA said:

What is a lot of water?  From some real quick back of the napkin calculation based on picture of the fuel tank that Mr Musk showed us, they will be harvesting on the order of a million gallons of water just to fuel one return rocket trip (more if they use reverse osmosis to purify the water).   So you will have the equipment there to harvest and process a substantial amount of water already.  Additionally, I suspect they will use a reverse osmosis plant to make pure water as well (they want to inhibit HCL synthesis in their electrolytic reactor).  That process on Mars leaves you with the percolate brine.  From that brine we can further electrolyze the calcium, nitrogen, and phosphorus that is needed to feed the inputs to this hybrid aquaponics/hydroponics system.  At the end of that level of processing, we are left with the Chlorine gas.  As I previously explained that is the element we need to get started with synthesis of PVC.  Just about every other bulk chemical we need is sitting there on the surface in bladder tanks.

The only pieces of equipment we need is the electrolyzer to break the brine down and recover the Chlorine, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Calcium.  A reactor for the HCL, A reaction chamber to synthesize the PVC.  An extrusion mold to make PVC pipe, and a 3D printer to print PVC parts.

That plus electricity (lots of co-generation possibilities here, but solar and nuclear will be needed as well) and time is all we need to make sprawling fields of hermetically sealed greenhouses.  We can even add supplemental heat and light to the greenhouses by making limelight with the acetylene gas...

This touches on an important often overlooked point (and the reason I still argue for Venus, but this isn't the thread for that): energy. We're going to need a staggering amount of solar cells on Mars to run the thing because there are no other energy sources essentially and solar is going to be not as good as earth. Energy to heat the hab (not actually to hard since the near vacuum provides excellent insulation), energy to grow things, energy to run all that electrolysis which is incredibly energy intensive (we don't make hydrogen that way on earth for a reason). One of the main things that will be needed is fields on fields of solar panels, which require tons of silicon. And they will need to be kept clean. So, likely Mars is going to need to go nuclear. Which means building a nuclear plant and keeping it safe. Also, requires the nuclear fuel. 

[Bill Phil]

5 minutes ago, todofwar said:

This touches on an important often overlooked point (and the reason I still argue for Venus, but this isn't the thread for that): energy. We're going to need a staggering amount of solar cells on Mars to run the thing because there are no other energy sources essentially and solar is going to be not as good as earth. Energy to heat the hab (not actually to hard since the near vacuum provides excellent insulation), energy to grow things, energy to run all that electrolysis which is incredibly energy intensive (we don't make hydrogen that way on earth for a reason). One of the main things that will be needed is fields on fields of solar panels, which require tons of silicon. And they will need to be kept clean. So, likely Mars is going to need to go nuclear. Which means building a nuclear plant and keeping it safe. Also, requires the nuclear fuel. 

Or use mirrors, if you can make them that is. Then you can do a couple of things, either (1) focus sunlight onto a container filled with a working fluid, which then acts on a turbine/piston, or (2) focus the light directly onto the panels, saving materials. I think that the heat engine design might be easier to do, since the local materials are more suited for that. All you need is glass and the various coatings. Could bring them along in cargo ships initially (before local mining is set up).

 

[GregA]

11 minutes ago, todofwar said:

This touches on an important often overlooked point (and the reason I still argue for Venus, but this isn't the thread for that): energy. We're going to need a staggering amount of solar cells on Mars to run the thing because there are no other energy sources essentially and solar is going to be not as good as earth. Energy to heat the hab (not actually to hard since the near vacuum provides excellent insulation), energy to grow things, energy to run all that electrolysis which is incredibly energy intensive (we don't make hydrogen that way on earth for a reason). One of the main things that will be needed is fields on fields of solar panels, which require tons of silicon. And they will need to be kept clean. So, likely Mars is going to need to go nuclear. Which means building a nuclear plant and keeping it safe. Also, requires the nuclear fuel. 

This one seems to use Uranium so it wouldn't present the proliferation risk that the old school RTG's presented.

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by GregA

[GregA]

58 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Or use mirrors, if you can make them that is. Then you can do a couple of things, either (1) focus sunlight onto a container filled with a working fluid, which then acts on a turbine/piston, or (2) focus the light directly onto the panels, saving materials. I think that the heat engine design might be easier to do, since the local materials are more suited for that. All you need is glass and the various coatings. Could bring them along in cargo ships initially (before local mining is set up).

 

Ok, im now in danger of "know it all itis" here...

But thin film flexible PV panels are screen printed on what type of plastic...  I'll give you all one guess...  No googling this...

[Bill Phil]

37 minutes ago, GregA said:

Ok, im now in danger of "know it all itis" here...

But thin film flexible PV panels are screen printed on what type of plastic...  I'll give you all one guess...  No googling this...

Question: How is this related to concentrated solar power?

[GregA]

25 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Question: How is this related to concentrated solar power?

Print your solar panels on Mars on PVC sub-strait...  Then you save the weight of the panels themselves and you only have to bring the printer, and machine that converts the acetylene (which we are already making) into the various organic inks (polyacetylene for example) needed to print the PV's... 

Sure they are low efficiency.  But I hear you can have a great deal on some land on Mars, so your pv fields can be really huge...

I think working in terms of, what can be made out of things ISRU is needed for any notion of colony...

I think the first few years the whole thing will need to be supported by nuclear...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_solar_cell

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by GregA

[Montieth]

On October 1, 2016 at 11:10 PM, Kerbart said:

Looking forward to that one colonist who will bring some weapons and have everybody else "volunteer" to feed him.

 

That'd be great. It'd be a proper education for the ignorant that if you have a technological society with machine tools to make high tech equipment, you can make your own arms. 

[Bill Phil]

27 minutes ago, Montieth said:

That'd be great. It'd be a proper education for the ignorant that if you have a technological society with machine tools to make high tech equipment, you can make your own arms. 

Well, most objects could count as a weapon anyways.

[Emperor of the Titan Squid]

On October 2, 2016 at 8:21 AM, GregA said:

Why would we ever want to close the cycle???  It is a crap tier planet.  We can do whatever we want to it.  Vent toxic gasses.  Experiment with atomic bombs.  Heck make atomic piles by just throwing fissile materials and moderators into a big pile and let it burn.  Run some pipes though it and harvest steam.  There is zero obligation to be environmentally responsible on Mars...

Seriously, it is a dead planet with some of the nastiest chemicals around just sitting on its surface.  I say strip mine it.

About that. I think we should try not to be to bad to it, in case we want to terraform. However it would be nice to launch Orion rockets. By the way, I heard that they can now grow cobia in Aquaponic tanks, and those have nutritional content, unlike tilapia. Also, I have heard a lot of talk about having goats on Mars.

[cubinator]

To all those talking about chickens and sheep and pigs, I have one response:

Insects. They're vastly more efficient at storing energy and just as nutritious. You need a lot less food to feed grasshoppers than you need to feed the same mass in pigs, or chickens, or sheep, and mass is a valuable thing when you're bringing stuff on rockets.

[GregA]

12 hours ago, cubinator said:

To all those talking about chickens and sheep and pigs, I have one response:

Insects. They're vastly more efficient at storing energy and just as nutritious. You need a lot less food to feed grasshoppers than you need to feed the same mass in pigs, or chickens, or sheep, and mass is a valuable thing when you're bringing stuff on rockets.

The greatest thing about grasshoppers is that we could also feed them to chickens, sheep and pigs.  

I don't mean to be a jerk about these hippy ideas but...  Yeah a bunch of hippies tried all this new age stuff with Biosphere 2 and it failed...  badly.  They had massive nutritional deficiencies, turned orange, and nearly suffocated.  There was some huge drama because someone in the biosphere 2 structure killed the livestock they had and ate them.  All the participants maintain that the animals simply died...  The fact of the matter is people eat meat, and I know it is sad to talk about the failures of human nature, but vegetarians eat meat as well.  They just don't tell you about it.

All real Mars colony plans absolutely need to account for people bringing, raising and harvesting meat.

As for vegetarians...  When a person tells me they are a vegetarian, I take that to mean something like "Hi, I am trying to better myself, but I don't know how", and in today's crazy society, I am OK with people at least trying to pursue virtue.  But know, every person who has ever identified to you as vegetarian...  They all eat meat (if they are not starving to death).  They tend to be really talented about their deception, and I think there may be some mental health issue there, but Ive known many vegetarians that will chow down on a big juicy hamburger, and then insist 20 minutes later they haven't eaten meat in over a year...  A vegetarian diet is simply not realistic.

Edited October 4, 2016 by GregA

[KSK]

 

1 hour ago, GregA said:

 A vegetarian diet is simply not realistic.

India begs to differ. According to this website anyway. Granted, it's quite old and it would be interesting to see a more up to date version. Site created by National Geographic using stats from FAOSTAT so it should be pretty unbiased.

Just for interest, taking numbers off the site, average daily caloric intake for India is 2458 calories, of which 29 are derived from meat and a further 182 from dairy and eggs. Of those 182, 9 are from eggs, 124 from milk and 65 from animal fats.

Animal fats can be replaced by vegetable fats plus appropriate supplements. Milk and eggs can be dehydrated and sent from Earth. Those 29 calories worth of meat could, I suspect be substituted for other vegetable protein sources, or if you really need meat, sent from Earth as luxury items.

I see no reason why real Mars colony plans need to account for raising and harvesting meat. It'll no doubt happen eventually but by that time it'll be a nice problem to have because it'll imply that we've solved most of the other, far more pressing, problems associated with living on Mars.

Edited October 4, 2016 by KSK

[Nibb31]

1 hour ago, GregA said:

The fact of the matter is people eat meat, and I know it is sad to talk about the failures of human nature, but vegetarians eat meat as well.  They just don't tell you about it.

Are you saying that all vegetarians are liars? That would be a gross generalization that might (or might not) be based on your own anecdotal evidence but simply cannot be applied to the billions of actual vegetarians (of which I'm not, btw)

[cubinator]

2 hours ago, GregA said:

snip

The reason I suggest grasshoppers is not to promote a vegetarian diet (which is discontinuous with eating animals like grasshoppers anyway) nor to prevent animal cruelty and whatnot, it is because they take less energy for the same nutritious value. This means growing grasshoppers would put a lot less stress on the ecosystem of the Martian habitat than growing chickens or pigs. Feeding the grasshoppers to mammals and birds would be counterproductive, as those larger animals are far less efficient at converting energy and that would make the grasshoppers pointless. I am not a vegetarian, and I have nothing against people eating chickens and pigs on Mars in the long run. I'm just suggesting insects because they would be far lass costly, in terms of both mass and money required, to bring and grow as a source of protein.