[1.2] SpaceDock

[DStaal]

3 minutes ago, Shadriss said:

This being true, why then is only CTT listed as a dependency? SHould EL not also be listed as required as opposed to recommended?

Because it's not *needed* - you can still deploy the part as purely cosmetic part on it's own.

[steedcrugeon]

On 10/27/2016 at 1:08 PM, Fendrin said:

edit: A simple animation related thing would be the lights. The SpaceDock's lights are currently always on. If I understand correctly having switchable lights is already a matter of animation modeling. Would you like to give them a try?

Unfortunately without Knowing the name of the light transform in the Unity model it is very difficult to target them as an emissive to turn them off.

I have been able to extrapolate the original meshes from the .mu in blender. @Stevie_D made a fantastic looking part i must say. I'm reverse engineering a lighter weight 'entry level' Space Dock, I'll make sure the illumination emissives are toggle-able. I think your best able to figure out where it belongs in the tech tree, how much it should weigh and cost etc. This Model will be a starting point, so to speak.

[Fendrin]

@steedcrugeon, yeah @Stevie_D did a great job. The rest of his WarpShip is also awesome. Sadly the parts never got enough love gameplay wise.

This means you start over keeping the basic concepts? What kind of deployment strategy are you going for? Will it be a single tile or assembled from multiple one? Maybe we should talk about that more since it also affects the coding in the background. My current concept mostly bases on the idea of all functionality being inside a single part module. If you go with multiple parts that needs some redesign of how stuff works.

edit: There is now a thread dedicated to the coding efforts for the ShipYard module, planned to replace the EL support on the long term.

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by Fendrin

[Fendrin]

On 27.10.2016 at 1:56 PM, steedcrugeon said:

Another approach to this would be if you could write a KIS/KAS style addon. Let me expand my thinking.

Scenario: you have in Duna Orbit a small station with fuel/supplies as an outpost and it has one or two tugs docked and a 'X-brand docking port' with will be the parent part for the Space Dock. these tugs have 'X-brand special grapple' part with the KIS/KAS style addon. Now we have a Piecemeal variant of the space dock which maybe 1/4 of a single 'ring' from the original model. The 1/4 ring section can fold in half (so you can put it into t a smaller rocket or just to ship more together) and this rocket arrives in the vicinity of you Duna outpost station. the tugs can then extract the folded 1/4 ring using the 'X-Brand specialised grapple arms', extend it from it's folded state and attach it to the 'X-brand docking port' to begin the construction of the space dock.

By using the tugs in the KIS/KAS style addon means that you would have to be in the vicinity of the parent part but not have to worry about docking precisely. that way you could ensure that the Spacedock is constructed correctly and the final model will resemble the same as a signal regular version. (additionally it mean you could potentially construct even larger spacedocks that currently available and also would allow for retrofit upgrade of existing spacedocks.

I'm happy to have a stab at some modelling if you like (coding is not my forte)

Your suggestion regarding the enhancement of KIS/KAS is growing into something worth sharing.

The SpaceDock itself equipped with the Attach and Move feature Kerbal (Engineers) have on EVA. Meaning while a vessel containing a SpaceDock is the active one, the player can montage like everything inside the SpaceDock would be in range of EVA Kerbals. The maximal lift mass and the range could later also be determined by the Konstruction tools installed.

This will greatly enhance the usability of the Docks while being nearly everything which is also needed to implement your "Tugs" concept. Restricting the feature to certain parts only is only a small step.

[steedcrugeon]

This is what i have been working on this weekend. it plays nice in blender but not so much in unity.

[Fendrin]

57 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

This is what i have been working on this weekend. it plays nice in blender but not so much in unity.

Impressive, far more and advanced than what I would have hopped for.

edit: Maybe it plays fine in unity when set to slow speed? I wouldn't mind if deploying the SpaceDock takes a lot of time.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Fendrin

[Murdabenne]

That looks incredibly cool.  Now if Unity would just be more cooperative...

[steedcrugeon]

1 hour ago, Fendrin said:

edit: Maybe it plays fine in unity when set to slow speed? I wouldn't mind if deploying the SpaceDock takes a lot of time.

The more frames i use to deploy, the larger the file size (this one's going to be a fairly beefy unit as is). I believe there is a way to slow the animations in game as I too think it should deploy slowly.

Edit: Yup, the 'ModuleAnimateGeneric' has a public attribute called 'animSpeed' which can be changed, so the deployment speed can be lowered in game.

Edited October 30, 2016 by steedcrugeon
found it

[Fendrin]

@steedcrugeon, please let me note some issues I discovered while working with the original design.

• The airlock like centerpart looks pretty much as it would feature a docking port on each side. I tried to configure that but with no success. I believe KSP can't handle multiple docking nodes on a single part. Although a single one on the bottom stack node would fit to the setting.
• Storage containers connected to the outerPort and outerStarboard nodes intersect with the cylindric tops. Since you need a lot of KIS containers for a proper usage of the dock that is a minor glitch.
• The lights are really good ones. Having the workplace lit properly is worth a lot.
• The EL mod needs a "translation" node for the spawn position. In the original .mu files it is called "LaunchPos".
• The size of the side panels fits to the size of the Konstruction mod's PAL Truss.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Fendrin

[steedcrugeon]

I will keep those in mind, i have seen where the LaunchPos artifact is and will make sure that one stays on the deployable part. I've sussed my biggest problem withe the fallout between blender/unity for this and its the texturing. Boooooo, it means i'll have to re UV map the whole part which sucks. it's not difficult just very time consuming. I think i'll get on that later in the week, i need sleep right now.

[Fendrin]

@steedcrugeon, on a second thought, installing a fixed docking port at the bottom makes the part less flexible. I had plenty of fun installing different kind of copula sight seeing modules while imaging how Kerbals gaze from there at the ship in construction.

Adjusting KIS to allow parts to be Mechanics was a matter of changing exactly one line. Beside the fact that the default "g" key for graping parts is also bound to the gears action group in IVA it works fine. I spend several hours playing with parts and building new ship designs inside the dock.

The being a mechanic feature comes with 2 adjustable values, range and maxWeight. For Kerbal Engineers it's 2meters and 1000 Kilograms.

The docks have a maxWeight of 1/10 of their own weight, maybe a bit underpowered, please give me feedback on this. The range is 0.75 * height, in theory 0.5 should be enough to cover all internals but the center of the part is somehow off. @steedcrugeon, can the center of the part be specified in the model?

I also tried to find a solution by just coding a check for being inside the dock's boundaries but that effort failed so far.

Anyway, I like to release a new version including this amazing feature but the one line change is very suspicious for causing problems. Before trying to talk the KIS maintainer into including the change some testing is needed.

On the other front, the ShipYard module already knows how to transfer cargo and it also dismantles like mad. Currently the detached parts just drift away, the next step is putting them into storage instead.

I will prepare a beta version with the modified KIS included this day.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Fendrin

[steedcrugeon]

25 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

The docks have a maxWeight of 1/10 of their own weight, maybe a bit underpowered, please give me feedback on this. The range is 0.75 * height, in theory 0.5 should be enough to cover all internals but the center of the part is somehow off. @steedcrugeon, can the center of the part be specified in the model?

I also tried to find a solution by just coding a check for being inside the dock's boundaries but that effort failed so far.

Anyway, I like to release a new version including this amazing feature but the one line change is very suspicious for causing problems. Before trying to talk the KIS maintainer into including the change some testing is needed.

On the other front, the ShipYard module already knows how to transfer cargo and it also dismantles like mad. Currently the detached parts just drift away, the next step is putting them into storage instead.

I will prepare a beta version with the modified KIS included this day.

The game object centre for this part is the 'centre of mass' for the part, as defined by the model in unity. which for these model appears to be about two third into the dock itself. For up and coming model a transform can be added that would be 'dockCentre' effectively a blank GameObject in the centre of the dock, as opposed to the part. I'm not sure if you can offset the original GameObject centre in the config as you would the Centre of Mass in the config. Otherwise you could try to target that with the KIS module and see if that works?

Is it ossible to target KIS in that way? If not than all future ShipYard compatible models will require that the GameObject around with the rest of the model is built will have to be in the centre of the SpaceDock.

With the latest tweak to config what are the mod dependencies? I can look to building some test parts to try out your beta stuff and with other test models.

1/10 weight does seem a bit underpowered but I'd say that the scale factor may be part dependent on the actual part (ie you could have smaller lightweight docks which can shift 1/10 there own weight in individual parts) to the only slightly larger but more robust versions that can shift up to 1/5 their own weight around (useful for larger tanks etc).

[Fendrin]

45 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

The game object centre for this part is the 'centre of mass' for the part, as defined by the model in unity. which for these model appears to be about two third into the dock itself. For up and coming model a transform can be added that would be 'dockCentre' effectively a blank GameObject in the centre of the dock, as opposed to the part. I'm not sure if you can offset the original GameObject centre in the config as you would the Centre of Mass in the config. Otherwise you could try to target that with the KIS module and see if that works?

KIS does not allow any settings regarding the centre at all. Nevertheless, I can modify KIS and submit the changes on github. That needs to be done anyway. So having the 'dockCentre' in your new models is a fine thing if not too much work.

45 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

Is it ossible to target KIS in that way? If not than all future ShipYard compatible models will require that the GameObject around with the rest of the model is built will have to be in the centre of the SpaceDock.

Hmmm, I would love the "can handle stuff inside" solution the most. I guess that would need a special collider mesh?
 There is still hope to find a coding only solution, I will ask in addon development.

45 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

With the latest tweak to config what are the mod dependencies? I can look to building some test parts to try out your beta stuff and with other test models.

Only CTT and the modified KIS.dl. Give me a few hours to get everything ready for a release.

I have tested the feature a lot and it works fine. The problem is that I don't know if the change does enable vessels to be engineers which are not supposed to be.

45 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

1/10 weight does seem a bit underpowered but I'd say that the scale factor may be part dependent on the actual part (ie you could have smaller lightweight docks which can shift 1/10 there own weight in individual parts) to the only slightly larger but more robust versions that can shift up to 1/5 their own weight around (useful for larger tanks etc).

Indeed, how many models do you plan to produce? 

[steedcrugeon]

4 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

Indeed, how many models do you plan to produce? 

I have two in mind at present, let me explain the second one first. I'm really not enjoying reverse engineering Stevie_D's original parts as I feel I am butchering them - I have a plan to build his very pretty docks in reverse. In effect it would be a part who's sole purpose is to build SpaceDocks (the original models from the mod). I would plan to employ the 'upgradable' module (as soon as I figure out how to implement it) so that at the beginning it could only build the size 2 docks and once upgraded could build the size 3 docks. Haven't quite figured out how to go about attaching it to a station afterwards, I'd leave that to you, Possible revert back to the SpaceDock Tug idea which can Shift SpaceDock to the desired empty node KIS style. Or perhaps the Dock constructor could have this KIS addon which would allow the dock the be attached to any empty station.

In fact thinking about it it's probably better if the Dock constructor was the Space tug (reduce the different part numbers) it can be left up to the user how they wish to implement it either way.

The first part is much simpler, its a scratch built collapsible SpaceDock with a distinctly more industrial feel (or at least the model I have in my head at the minute) that Stevie_D's very pretty parts do. It will fit inside it's own purpose built size 3 casing before being deployed. It is not intended to replace any of the exiting Space Docks, just offer and alternative entry level part that is designed to be launched from Kerbin.

[Fendrin]

 

13 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

I have two in mind at present, let me explain the second one first. I'm really not enjoying reverse engineering Stevie_D's original parts as I feel I am butchering them - I have a plan to build his very pretty docks in reverse.

I have had hoped to be able to drop the original .mu files. They lack support for some stuff and seem to be the end of the road since .mu files can not easily be edited, right?

And I would be fine to replace them by new and different designs, the original @Stevie_D design can life on inside the WarpShip mod as it is.

13 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

In effect it would be a part who's sole purpose is to build SpaceDocks (the original models from the mod).

Is it a one-way part? I mean, a facility that can produce SpaceDocks is a fine thing in a strategy game where you want to build a lot of ShipYards to overcome some enemy. A KSP player would most likely only build a few of them. Maybe only a small one earlier and a bigger one later in orbit around Kerbin in a whole career. Not that I dislike the concept, I just wonder if it matches the setup.

13 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

I would plan to employ the 'upgradable' module (as soon as I figure out how to implement it) so that at the beginning it could only build the size 2 docks and once upgraded could build the size 3 docks. Haven't quite figured out how to go about attaching it to a station afterwards, I'd leave that to you, Possible revert back to the SpaceDock Tug idea which can Shift SpaceDock to the desired empty node KIS style. Or perhaps the Dock constructor could have this KIS addon which would allow the dock the be attached to any empty station.

In fact thinking about it it's probably better if the Dock constructor was the Space tug (reduce the different part numbers) it can be left up to the user how they wish to implement it either way.

The Tug is definitely a nice idea. Let's see that we can implement it somehow.

13 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

The first part is much simpler, its a scratch built collapsible SpaceDock with a distinctly more industrial feel (or at least the model I have in my head at the minute) that Stevie_D's very pretty parts do. It will fit inside it's own purpose built size 3 casing before being deployed. It is not intended to replace any of the exiting Space Docks, just offer and alternative entry level part that is designed to be launched from Kerbin.

This is the one you showed us already?

[steedcrugeon]

23 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

 

I have had hoped to be able to drop the original .mu files. They lack support for some stuff and seem to be the end of the road since .mu files can not easily be edited, right?

Is it a one-way part? I mean, a facility that can produce SpaceDocks is a fine thing in a strategy game where you want to build a lot of ShipYards to overcome some enemy. A KSP player would most likely only build a few of them. Maybe only a small one earlier and a bigger one later in orbit around Kerbin in a whole career. Not that I dislike the concept, I just wonder if it matches the setup.

The Tug is definitely a nice idea. Let's see that we can implement it somehow.

This is the one you showed us already?

 - the .mu are tough to edit, but I am trying to be particularly unkind with them by dissecting the original parts, grouping them in a fashion to which that had not previously been, and then reallocating parent parts to suite my ends. After which I'm then try to animate them. Minor tweaks would probably not be too hard but I'm asking a lot of taniwha's plugin fro reverse engineering them into blender.

- Thinking about it from that perspective I can see that it would be a lot of work putting one into orbit to just build docks, when I get home I can scratch together a quick part to better show you what I mean. I agree, it should probably be combined into a 'Tug' sort of part.

- No the part in the GIF is the Stevie_D model I've butchered (it's the one that won't play nice in untiy). The part I'm planning is different in many aspects including that its oriented so the 'docking point/Launch point' is centrally located in what would be the top of the prospective build vessel (again pictures will help describe it better soon).

[steedcrugeon]

so this evening has not been as productive as i'f hoped. I'll jump on the Dock-constructor/Tug  in a bit. I've managed to create the base model for the collapsible dock. i'm going to throw a quick grey all over it and see if it'll play in unity next.

GIF for flavour:

That bit at the top is a size  two connection so this will be a small dock.

Edited November 1, 2016 by steedcrugeon
corrections

[steedcrugeon]

oh it it plays nice in unity too. shown here is a few in VAB comparisons. I'm going to tweak it again to better fit but its turned out as a size 3 root part. The comparative dock is the smallest one in the current mod.

Also i managed to get the controllable light source too! 

Edited November 1, 2016 by steedcrugeon

[Fendrin]

The last one looks already great but unfinished.

The link in the center, can it connect all of the 5 arm pairs? The 4 outer arm links could feature nodes for KIS containers on the top, small nodes for tools (no PAL truss just the tools directly mounted) and some more lights.

[steedcrugeon]

2 hours ago, Fendrin said:

The last one looks already great but unfinished.

There you have hit the nail on the head. This model is very unfinished, I just wanted to see if it would work as intended in KSP That and test whether the controllable light source would work too. I'm hoping to have a more finished version of the Collapsible Dock this evening. It will have a lightweight frame for mounting KIS and will also have a central truss with ladder colliders so that Kerbals can climb it.

[Fendrin]

Version 0.2.1

This new version fixes a wrong description of a technode, reduces the entry costs and brings in support for the KISPickup feature.

The KISPickup support needs to make use of a modified version of KIS. I am working on a first release.

[steedcrugeon]

Ah, this is unfortunate timing. i have a model for you to play with/setup for use with SpaceDock. This isn't a completely finished version but it's about 95% done. I wanted to see what other stuff you'd need added. At present this part has the light setup to be switchable and the can be retracted/deployed. there is an empty transform in the part called 'dockCenter' which you could target for 'building' the ships if that's viable.

It'll need its nodes setting up, its late and  haven't had time to do that but the mechanics of the part are there. In the link below there is a single part to drop into the SpaceDock Folder for you to test @Fendrin let me know how you get on.

SHED Work in Progress

I will point out now that the part's CoM is way off but i'll fix that later. time for sleep now.

Edited November 3, 2016 by steedcrugeon

[Fendrin]

Cool, I will have a look at it right now.

[Fendrin]

5 hours ago, steedcrugeon said:

... This isn't a completely finished version but it's about 95% done. I wanted to see what other stuff you'd need added.

Hmmm, I have some issues with it.

Let's first have a look at the original SpaceDock by @Stevie_D. It is basically a structure trying to be solid while lightweight which provides mount points for gear.

The deflatable SpaceDock's trusses are too fragile to hold our heavy konstruction gear on the one side and they can't be mount points for heavy KISContainers on the other side either. They could however hold additional lights. What purposes are they for? Solar Panels?

The arms holding the lights seem to be quite stable and they do not need to be strong for lights only. They can hold the konstruction nodes on the outer sides of their hinges. I guess that looks cool.

I can only see one proper place for a storage node, at the "top" position. Although that is better connected with a part providing ConnectedLivingSpace.

The deflatable SpaceDock looks very fragile. My feeling is that it could only handle very lightweight vessels. There are only very few elements more needed to solve that problem, thus I called it unfinished before.

Please let me make some suggestions:

• Remove the trusses again, they don't fit any purpose and their space is better used by the konstruction gear. Please correct me, maybe I just can't imagine the use case you have in mind.
• Add hoops at least to the outer ends of both telescope pipes, this will increase stability a lot. They don't need to be as massive as in the center.
  • storageNode at their top
  • recycle the trusses as mount structure for the node
• Add an end-section to the light arms making them connect with some mechanism. Closing their rings will increase stability a lot, again.
• The telescope arms need more sections, they currently look like they fold into nothing.
• Without the trusses the T-Beam is useless, so connect it to the hoops, again with some mechanism. flip it upside down

Edited November 3, 2016 by Fendrin

[steedcrugeon]

All valid points and some good feedback. I have imposed a small restriction upon my modelling techniques which hinders me and that is to make the mechanisms work as i wold expect them to in the real world (admittedly i'm giving anything that actuates super power strength and rigidity) I'm trying to avoid, where possible, parts growing from a space where there would not be sufficient, currently the telescopic rams/pipes that hold the ring arms are using heavy 'artistic license' to compact as much as I want them too.

I will admit that I deliberately made the side panels lightweight, although i can see your point, with Konstruction in mind they are too lightweight. even for the smallest of tools. The same applies for storage.

I'll take on-board your suggestions and have a think about how i can implement the additional rigidity and strength to the overall dock, still working in my self-imposed restriction. I have some ideas from what you have said. But it will have to wait until after I get back from work today, I'm just off there now!