Career and Science - The "Meh" moment

[WanderingKid]

Does anyone else who plays career (or even science mode) ever hit that point when they're staring at the science tree with a thousand or better research points because there's nothing in there they care about opening up?

I'm in mixed tech 6/7 and staring at it going "I don't really care about what's next... I guess I'll... um, well, that could be useful eventually.... I guess... errr, sure, a Mainsail for something I'll launch next year... erm, sure... the claw can be fun I guess, but really want mining gear for that..."

I'm building ships and flying them, clearing my contracts and having fun, science bombing Mun and Minmus with a 16k/launch returnable for 132 science a pop, working on building a few landers to feed some MPLs because that's the next 'obvious' step, and the entire tech tree (I've played a long time, I know all the parts) just doesn't excite me for the next stage of things.  Sure, there's a few adventurous points like opening up Panther engines and getting useful Spaceplanes and Nukes for spacetugs, but the next real stage to me would be setting up fuel mining in the Kerbin system to refuel deep space craft, and that's at the END of the tree (tech 8 to do it at all, and tech 9 to do well).

So, I'm wondering if other career players hit this wall of 'meh' until they reach endgame and are looping Dres for a gravity boost just because it looked like a fun way to get to Moho.

Edited November 18, 2016 by WanderingKid

[paul23]

Well that's the point when you make science harder, so each upgrade actually means you can go somewhere else. - Just a quadruppling of the pod masses means you need mainsail for anything outside kerbin SOI.

[WanderingKid]

Just now, paul23 said:

Well that's the point when you make science harder, so each upgrade actually means you can go somewhere else. - Just a quadruppling of the pod masses means you need mainsail for anything outside kerbin SOI.

Heh, I probably should have mentioned I'm playing on 'Hard'.  

Yeah, quadrupling the weight of things would certainly make me throw a ton more d/v at things.

[paul23]

Well the delta-V would stay the same - that's the idea of delta V. But you'll need more fuel for gain the same delta V. And due to gravity losses which are based on time a fast burn becomes more important and thus heavier rocketry becomes also more important.

 

EVERYTHING is balanced by weight in aerospace: thus if things are too "easy" you should increase the weights: if things are too hard you should reduce the weight of parts.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

Every science or career mode has done this to me, eventually. I start setting arbitrary rules for myself to ramp up the difficulty. 4 satellites at a planet before I send Kerbals, No 1 man landers...

I'm tempted to give a tech tree mod a try. 

[Ultimate Steve]

30 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

I'm tempted to give a tech tree mod a try. 

I recommend the Engineering Tech Tree.

 

Also, I've started playing a new career mode with one very constraining limitation - everything MUST be re-usable. It either must land on Kerbin intact, or remain useful in orbit. (Minimal orbital debris, also.) I'm actually finding it quite a struggle to escape LKO - and I'm also finding it difficult to progress through the tech tree.

But, yeah. I've sort of sometimes hit that "meh" moment. But most often, before I can "finish" a career a new update comes out or I get bored with my current save. I don't think I've ever landed Kerbals on anything other then Kerbin, the Mun, Minmus, Gilly, Duna, and Ike in career mode. Most of the time I play sandbox.

[W. Kerman]

Meh is a real threat to my games. Then I look at mission reports and challenges. Back to the game!  

[Superfluous J]

I don't know if it's "Meh" but I am sitting on about 1600 science points, waiting until I can upgrade R&D to get mining equipment. I don't care about the sub-500-point nodes I still haven't unlocked, because I just don't need the stuff.

And that's okay. Not every part is useful to every person in every save.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

38 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I don't know if it's "Meh" but I am sitting on about 1600 science points, waiting until I can upgrade R&D to get mining equipment. I don't care about the sub-500-point nodes I still haven't unlocked, because I just don't need the stuff.

And that's okay. Not every part is useful to every person in every save.

I now force myself to unlock nodes from the current tier, not jumping ahead on any branch, to encourage myself to try new things. I've "finished" careers without touching the aircraft branch before, albeit on medium difficulty. 

 

2 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

I recommend the Engineering Tech Tree.

That's actually the one I'm looking at the most. Or full-blown RSS and it's accoutrement. I'm still jamming on 1.1.3 for the foreseeable future, so I've options.

I wish they would stick a fork in this game so modders can find better footing. I'm slowly becoming a parts mod junkie. 

[Magzimum]

3 hours ago, W. Kerman said:

Meh is a real threat to my games. Then I look at mission reports and challenges. Back to the game!  

This. ^

As an extra challenge to myself, I try to do some of the forum's challenges as part of my career. I already completed my first Elcano (Minmus) and I'm currently in the middle of a Jool-5. That's how I spend excess funds.

I got all science unlocked though, and I actually use quite a lot of the more advanced parts. Looking at the bottom of the tech tree, I use at least 1 component from each advanced research node.

[Sharpy]

Mid-way through the tech tree? Never. I just look at nodes "further down the line" and am immediately torn between where to go.

ISRU or Gigantors? RTG or large probes? LV-N? Docking port Sr.? Aerospike and Rapier or all the advanced MK3 parts? Ruggedized wheels or atmospheric analyzed?

Even if the immediately accessible nodes are all "meh", they always lead to awesome stuff.

 

The real apprehension comes once a big mission somewhere far is launched. Because I know I can't just revert and fix it, the time and work investment was immense, and once I realize it was all a failure, I'll be broken.

Luckily, KIS and OSE Workshop came to my rescue. There's very little that can't be fixed on-site with these. Just remember to take spare xenon, a spare (inflatable?) laboratory, and everything else can be manufactured and assembled on site.

Also, I like to keep some two nodes worth of spare science, because sometimes I'm getting an idea that requires a part only available in some obscure node I'd normally "leave for later" and that way I can unlock it immediately.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Sharpy

[Wjolcz]

The stock tree sucks!

I haven't had that moment simply because I'm using the Historical Progression Tech Tree and a bunch of others mods that let me do stuff my way without caring about these damn science points.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Veeltch

[Clipperride]

I play stock (mostly science mode but just started career) bit haven't hit that wall in a year or so of KSP.  There's always something I want to do "because it's there".  Maybe it's because I usually have several projects on the go at once.  When I grow tired of one, I leave it a while for something else (thank goodness for no life support in stock!)

[Tex_NL]

The 'Meh' moment usually comes a while after completing the tech tree. Millions in the bank and thousands on unspendable science points.

[baberbot]

found that very early on so i started to add challenges to my career runs e.g. only space-plane/reg-plane launches from KSC, adding LS ect. tho normally i run a sandbox mode with science (create science save then add enough science to max out tech tree so it runs like sandbox that still allows science experiments) 

[Leafbaron]

I just recently started a new career mode with the idea that any and all missions would be launched via spaceplanes. Not saying that the space planes are traveling the kerbin system. They are just the launch vehicles taking payloads to LKO rather than large rockets that end up exploding on the ground or floating aimlessly in orbit. The challenge of designing spaces planes is fun in and of itself. Designing and tweaking to make the perfect plane that can handle a certain weight limit or payload size is exhilarating. Nothing sharpens your piloting skills like flying a space plane. In addition designing vehicles to fit inside your space plane with weight restrictions is another fun challenge. Doing this makes tech tree decisions that much more important because you are limited and you need to use specific parts to achieve the mission goal. The next design is an ultra heavy space plane that can lift a exploration vehicle with ISRU. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by Leafbaron

[Foxster]

I used to want to get the top rows of the tech tree done early because it had all the fat rocket stuff. Then I figured out you can go anywhere and do anything without that big stuff.  

Then I did some aircraft/rover stuff across the middle. But realised I didn't need much of that either.

So, all I do now is a few columns and then go across the bottom to get the science experiments and call it quits when I get RTGs.  

 

[KerikBalm]

I bee-line to docking ports, nukes, tubroramjets (and then rapiers), and ISRU.

After that... the rest is sort of "Meh", and many nodes I only unlock to get closer to one of the above.

I find it a bit absurd how much science I need just to unlock a quad adaptor that I use on my larger space planes... but its not needed and I have very large capacity spaceplanes that don't use them.

Oh, and also the basics like solar panels and science equipment.

The big ore tank? meh

The 3.75m engines... they're nice but not needed.

>1000 science just for the biggest LFO fuel tank? meh

[Sharpy]

16 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

The big ore tank? meh

It was the first 1000sci node I unlocked in the current game.

I was getting honestly sick of grinding stupid, uninteresting contracts for money. At last could I open mass production of monopropellant and end the KSC's financial woes.

[Leafbaron]

I've got a question for those of you who have mentioned the ETT. Does that mod integrate parts packs or is just compatible with them? I think I'd very much like to try this mod a fresh new copy of KSP. Basically just tell me about the mod, I reviewed the mod page but it was ambiguous to me, and first hand experiences are worth more to my decision making process than just reading the mod page.

 

Thanks in advance,

Leafy

[Kermanzooming]

Life Support; this changes everything.

You mentioned you can science bomb Minmus with a 16K rocket; not possible if you have to take care of supplies and habitation for your Kerbals (with USI-LS, which I'm using, your Kerbals won't like living for nearly 30 days on a small capsule).

That means you need to plan carefully, heavier crafts, lots of EC... A completely different experience. Each trip to Minmus will be much more difficult... and rewarding.

On my previous career game I played with no life support and quickly reached your Meh moment; with life support, I'm enjoying the game a lot more.

[Terwin]

1 hour ago, Leafbaron said:

I've got a question for those of you who have mentioned the ETT. Does that mod integrate parts packs or is just compatible with them? I think I'd very much like to try this mod a fresh new copy of KSP. Basically just tell me about the mod, I reviewed the mod page but it was ambiguous to me, and first hand experiences are worth more to my decision making process than just reading the mod page.

I use CTT(Community Tech tree), which tends to be fairly empty if you don't have lots of parts mods to fill all those higher tier nodes(some up to 10K science each)

USI-LS and MKS is good for filling in those bottom life support/colonization nodes along with those nuclear nodes near the top, Near Future tech is good for filling many of the other nodes, Atomic age is good for filling those nuclear propulsion nodes.  Many parts pack parts have specific CTT nodes that they will go into if you have CTT.

[monstah]

1 hour ago, Leafbaron said:

I've got a question for those of you who have mentioned the ETT. Does that mod integrate parts packs or is just compatible with them? I think I'd very much like to try this mod a fresh new copy of KSP. Basically just tell me about the mod, I reviewed the mod page but it was ambiguous to me, and first hand experiences are worth more to my decision making process than just reading the mod page.

8 minutes ago, Terwin said:

I use CTT(Community Tech tree), which tends to be fairly empty if you don't have lots of parts mods to fill all those higher tier nodes(some up to 10K science each)

USI-LS and MKS is good for filling in those bottom life support/colonization nodes along with those nuclear nodes near the top, Near Future tech is good for filling many of the other nodes, Atomic age is good for filling those nuclear propulsion nodes.  Many parts pack parts have specific CTT nodes that they will go into if you have CTT.

CTT adds further nodes for mod parts; ETT changes the tree so stock parts are more spread out, and linked thematically. So, for a different feel on a fresh copy, go try out ETT.

[WanderingKid]

2 hours ago, Kermanzooming said:

You mentioned you can science bomb Minmus with a 16K rocket; not possible if you have to take care of supplies and habitation for your Kerbals (with USI-LS, which I'm using, your Kerbals won't like living for nearly 30 days on a small capsule).

That means you need to plan carefully, heavier crafts, lots of EC... A completely different experience. Each trip to Minmus will be much more difficult... and rewarding.

On my previous career game I played with no life support and quickly reached your Meh moment; with life support, I'm enjoying the game a lot more.

Okto Bombs, caveman tech.  14 days round trip if I get the approach right, otherwise they orbit a bit waiting for their LZ to come back into their orbital pattern.  It's a 4-5 day approach if you're aggressive which you can do because Minmus is a floating potato for countering the insertion burns, a day to do work, and then a 9 day trip home directly to aerobraking.

 

I agree, though, that Life Support would make it more interesting for manned missions to these places.  I've been tempted to mod into one of them one of these days... maybe that day is sooner than I expected.

1 hour ago, monstah said:

CTT adds further nodes for mod parts; ETT changes the tree so stock parts are more spread out, and linked thematically. So, for a different feel on a fresh copy, go try out ETT.

I'll go take a look at it for my next game.  There's a bunch of recommendations so far for it, thanks everyone.

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by WanderingKid