Model Rocket Program

[Spacetraindriver]

Ok so I want a model rocket (or rockets) for Christmas because reasons.  So I was wondering about the skill levels there are. How exactly are they "harder" ? Is it "anyone can do it but less skilled we'll have a harder time" or "If you dont have these skills you can't do it"? Also is it possible to make multistage custom rockets?

Edited December 18, 2016 by Spacetraindriver

[StrandedonEarth]

I don't see why someone couldn't make a custom multi-stage rocket; you just have to have the right pieces.

One example is that the easiest rockets have pre-cast plastic fin units, progressing to laser-cut then you-cut balsa as the skill level goes up. Decal count will also likely go up, and it'll need more complex paint jobs. Other than that, you should be able to tell from the pictures that the overall complexity goes up with the high-level rockets, with dowels and extra winglets and other radial add-ons. Price and assembly time also go up; some rockets are ready to fly or can be ready in an hour or two.

It's the difference between this:and this: 

Edited December 19, 2016 by StrandedonEarth

[GDJ]

Being a CAR L1 holder, I can tell you that Model Rocketry is the fastest hobby on earth. Where else can you build a Mach 1+ rocket on your kitchen table?

If you like bigger rockets that won't break the bank, Quest makes good starter rockets, and their Advanced Series rockets are not a hard build. Just make sure the fins are well dressed (there are plenty of forums to tell you that) and are mounted straight, use good glue, and have fun.

In a nutshell, Skill level 1 requires some assembly, uses smaller motors. Skill level 2, larger motors, more involved assembly, a few more parts, might get into 2 stage assemblies. Skill level 3 is a large single stage, 2 or 3 stages, uses larger motors again, might have more parts or the rocket will go rather high. Skill level 4, again bigger, badder, higher. Harder to recover due to altitude or it's a very complex build. Skill level 5 is usually a rocket that you could possibly get your L1 certification for High Power Rocketry or the build is so complex that it will take you a few months to build.
                      

Edited December 19, 2016 by GDJ

[MaxxQ]

3 hours ago, GDJ said:

Being a CAR L1 holder, I can tell you that Model Rocketry is the fastest hobby on earth. Where else can you build a Mach 1+ rocket on your kitchen table?

If you like bigger rockets that won't break the bank, Quest makes good starter rockets, and their Advanced Series rockets are not a hard build. Just make sure the fins are well dressed (there are plenty of forums to tell you that) and are mounted straight, use good glue, and have fun.

In a nutshell, Skill level 1 requires some assembly, uses smaller motors. Skill level 2, larger motors, more involved assembly, a few more parts, might get into 2 stage assemblies. Skill level 3 is a large single stage, 2 or 3 stages, uses larger motors again, might have more parts or the rocket will go rather high. Skill level 4, again bigger, badder, higher. Harder to recover due to altitude or it's a very complex build. Skill level 5 is usually a rocket that you could possibly get your L1 certification for High Power Rocketry or the build is so complex that it will take you a few months to build.
                      

Used to be L2 through both NAR and TRA here in the US.  Got my L1 cert on a scratch-built 4x upscale Estes Mars Lander flying on an H220.  L2 was on a scratch-built 1/3 scale Sandhawk with an Aerotech J360 RMS.  Pics below:

Tha Mars Lander weighed in at 10 pounds at launch.  The landing gear/fins are "spring" loaded, and flexed on landing, just as on the original Estes kit ("spring" is in quotes because they're actually five heavy-duty rubber bands per leg).  The butt plate was removeable to allow access to the legs and to remove them for transport - I had a custom-built box that was foam-lined for moving it to launch sites.  Flew twice - first flight is pictured, second flight was on an Aerotech single-use I161.  The onboard altimeter reported 556 feet on the first flight (with the H220 Smokey Sam motor).  The I motor got it to 600+ - that sucker is draggy as hell.

This image shows two scales of the Terrier-Sandhawk.  The smaller version is 1/6 scale, the larger is 1/3.  Flew the smaller one several times with electronic staging (2 Aerotech F or G motors in the Terrier booster and a single AT F or G in the upper Sandhawk stage).  Only ever flew the Sandhawk part of the larger version.  The 1/3 scale had a single 38mm mount, but the booster had a removeable mount that I could swap out between 38mm clusters (3, 4, or 5), or a single 54mm mount.

@Spacetraindriver Don't want to derail your thread bragging about my own stuff, so I'll expand somewhat on what has already been mentioned.

Back in the old days, there were 5 skill levels.  I realize there are still 5 nowadays, but they mean something different from back then.  I'll try to give an explanation of them together, but bear in mind that I haven't been involved in rocketry for over 10 years now, and things have changed quite a bit.

Skill Level 1 - This was considered an entry-level skill level.  In the beginning (back when skill levels were first introduced), that meant a very basic 3FNC (3 fins and a nose cone) rocket.  Not many parts, usually around 20 or less.  Fins were either die-cut balsa, a pre-molded plastic fin unit, or a sheet of balsa that you traced the fin pattern on and cut out yourself - that's how I started out.  Depending on the kit, you would have either a 13mm mini-motor mount, or an 18mm standard mount.  These kits could be assembled in a couple hours or so, depending on how fast the glue dried, and not including finishing - sanding sealer to fill the balsa grain, paint, decals (if any).

Current SL1 kits are generally plastic fin units, plastic nose cones, pre-colored body tubes, and also come in either the 13mm or 18mm motor mount flavors.  These can be built somewhat quicker than the older kits, and that's if you even need to build them at all.  Estes offers many beginner "kits" where the only thing you assemble is the parachute.

Skill Level 2 - Somewhat more involved than SL1.  This might involve new techniques, or possibly a tube-fin rocket.  Maybe there's an adapter and two different body tube diameters.  Estes used to have a high-performance 3FNC called the Sprint that was SL2 because it involved elliptical fins, a boattail reducer at the motor end, and the fins needed to be airfoiled for the best performance, which ain't easy on elliptical fins.  It was streamer recovery, rather than parachute, because if built correctly, and on a good day, it could reach 2500+ feet on an 18mm C6-7 motor.

Modern SL2 kits DO require assembly, although they still come with plastic nose cones (TBH, I think only certain boutique kit makers still offer balsa nose cones anymore).  Fins will be either very heavy card stock, balsa (rare), or plastic, all of which are usually pre- or die-cut.  Many will also have pre-colored body tubes, or a single large decal wrap.

Skill Level 3 - Now we're getting to the fun stuff, if spending a bit more time (several days) putting the thing together is your idea of fun (it was for me, anyway).  This usually meant much more involved construction, sometimes having to shape balsa parts into small details (for scale models of real rockets), staging, clustering, stronger construction techniques, and so on.  This is also where you might step up to 24mm motors (Estes D motors).  You can start to get into larger models as well.  The early Estes Honest John scale kit was a SL3, but it's a bit involved to explain why.  Oh, yeah... this is also where boost gliders start to come in - goes up under rocket power and glides back, sometimes well, sometimes... not.

Current SL3 is actually about the same as the old, albeit still with plastic nose cones, and some will have plastic fins.  Modern SL3 scale kits will usually have plastic detail pieces.  These can be built a bit quicker than the older SL3 kits, mainly due to the simplification that has occurred over the past 20 years or so.  Some will have you step up to 24mm E motors.

Skill Level 4 - Pretty much building on what I've already gone over, and then taking it up a couple notches.  Much more involved work in construction, odd shapes, larger or more detailed kits, clustering and 24mm motors fairly prevalent.  Might need to invest in a somewhat bigger launch pad, as larger, heavier rockets may require a 3/16" x 36" or 48" launch rod, as opposed to earlier SL models usually only needing a 1/8" x 36" rod.  The original Estes Mars Lander was a SL4 kit.

Nowadays, SL4 is more for much larger rockets, some of which may have pre-cut model plywood fins, slots cut in the body tube for TTW (through the wall) fin mounting (makes for a stronger mount), again with the plastic nose cone, definitely a bit more clustering - usually in 24mm motors.  Twenty-five or so years ago, Estes reissued their Saturn V kit, as well as a "new" version of the Saturn 1B.  These were sold at SL4.  "New" is in quotes because what they did was used Centuri's S1B kit after they bought out Centuri.  The advantage was that it was 1/100 scale - the same as the Sat V.  Both reissues had A LOT of plastic parts, obviously sharing some of the same ones between kits.  I'm not sure if it holds true anymore, but back in the late 1980's, Estes dropped SL5, probably for several reasons - not cost effective (fewer people bought the more expensive and complex kits), new manufacturing techniques made them less complex (read: more plastic parts), and the rising popularity of larger motors - E and above, in both standard black powder and composite - meant clustering wasn't necessary for larger, heavier kits.

Skill Level 5 - Might take a month or so to build.  Mostly used for scale kits.  The original Estes 1/100 Saturn V and the 1/70 scale Saturn 1B were SL5.  The 1B was especially fun because you had to build the eight fins, which were a framework of balsa covered with light card stock, you had to shape the ullage motors out of balsa, the LES was made with wooden dowels, the body tubes used for the eight tanks had to have sections cut out of them in order to fit over the four-motor cluster mount, and painting the thing was a nightmare.  As I mentioned above, Estes dropped SL5 for awhile.

Nowadays?  I'm not sure there ARE any SL5 kits.  Probably from other rocket kit manufacturers, but from Estes...? <shrug>  Apogee Rockets https://www.apogeerockets.com sells some L5 kits, including a 1/70 Saturn 1B AND a 1/70 Saturn V.  They also have some great info on their site for beginners, and have rocket design software that you can use to design rockets, and even fly them before you ever build them.  The software is great and uses much better aero calculations than KSP (of course, it's slower than what would be needed for KSP).  I used it to work out stability calcs for the Terrier-Sandhawk shown above, as well as several other scratch-built models.

The stuff that @GDJ mentioned, as well as myself at the beginning of my post, is what is known as high-power rocketry.  First, a couple of things: Low-power rockets are pretty much anything you can get at Micheal's, Wal-Mart, etc.  Generally, the rockets mass less than 16 ounces (I'm not converting to grams or kilos - sue me), and contain less than 4 ounces of propellant.  This generally means clustering no more than 4 Estes E motors.  Mid-power rocketry allows up to 3.3 pounds TRW (total rocket weight, including motors), and means you can fly on F or G class motors.  At this point, you may need to contact your local airport with a Notification.  There are certain G motors, in combination with certain kits (not Estes) that can break the sound barrier and hit altitudes of over a mile.  All that's required is a notification - let them know you're flying at such-and-such location at X time, and that you expect some rockets to reach whatever altitude.  This has been done enough over the past 25-30 years, that most airports are aware of the hobby and will wish you happy flying.  They cannot deny you to fly - it's a courtesy to notify them - unless you plan to launch in the flight path of the airport less than five miles away, at which point, they'll probably just suggest finding another launch site.

High Power Rocketry (HPR) is what we were talking about earlier.  HPR is anything over 3.3 pounds TRW, and H motors and above (BTW, all motors discussed from this point on are composite motors - APCP, or ammonium perchlorate composite propellant - and can be single use, or reloadable.  Some motors are hybrids, using a solid propellant with Nitrous Oxide as the oxidizer).  As GDJ mentioned, he's a member of CAR (Canadian Association of Rocketry).  In the US, there are two organizations I know of - the NAR (National Association of Rocketry) and TRA (Tripoli Rocketry Association).  These organizations are authorized to Certify anyone wishing to fly HPR, and usually will recognize certs from the other organization (I had dual membership in NAR and TRA, but if I didn't, a NAR cert was good at TRA launches, and vice-versa).  There are three cert levels - 1, 2, and 3.  

L1 is limited to H and I class motors, or the equivalent propellant weight in clusters of smaller motors.  You CAN cluster I motors to technically get above a J class, but why?

L2 is J, K, and L class motors.  Same as above, but with higher propellant weight limits.

L3 is for M thru either O or P class motors.  This level has special requirements, as you need to submit a proposal for your rocket, detailing construction and bunches of other info.  If it's approved, you still need to fly the thing, AND recover it in good enough condition that you could theoretically fly it again the same day.

ANYTHING falling under the HPR heading HAS to have an FAA waiver filed.  It CAN be refused, although if you fly with a large group, they usuall have things already taken care of.  I DO NOT recommend EVER attempting to fly HPR on your own.  Also, if you keep HPR motor at home when not flying, there MAY be some issues with the BATF.  I believe the court case was settled some 10 years ago, and NAR and TRA won, but there may still be certain storage requirements.  Check their respective websites for more info: http://www.nar.org/ and http://www.tripoli.org/  I'd suggest checking out the NAR site for model rocketry info - while Tripoli is accepting of model rockets, their focus is more on HPR.  Also check out http://www.rocketryforum.com/ for a community much like this one - eager to help out newbies, lots of information, tips and tricks, and so forth.

Experimental rocketry is on a whole 'nother level above L3, and after that is amateur rocketry, which involves making your own propellant, metal rockets, and other things that I'd never consider doing.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post, but I figured I'd try to get as much info to you as I could.

Edit:  Forgot the bit about staged rockets.  Yeah, it can be done.  With standard Estes BP (black powder) motors, it's somewhat easy, although there are a few little things that can be done to make them more reliable.  With composite motors, it's quite a bit more complicated, and usually requires electronic staging methods.  I have an Estes Fat Boy kit that I modified for staging.  Actually, two of them.  The first one used a 4 x 18mm cluster staging to a single 24mm motor.  The second used a single 24mm plus 3 x 18mm motors in to booster and a single 24mm upper stage.  The smaller Terrier-Sandhawk in the pic above used a pair of 29mm composite F motors in the booster and electronically staged a single 29mm G in the upper stage.

Edited December 19, 2016 by MaxxQ