totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[RoverDude]

Do you have Material Kits to expand it, and did you expand it while on EVA?  RE Greenhouse mode - do you use USI Life Support?

[Chainbullet]

I do not believe I had any materials kits with me, I only tried extending it while controlling the vessel directly. I do not have Life Support installed.

[RoverDude]

That explains all of your issues.

 

Without life support there's no point to the different modes anyway as they are directly related to life support and do not change the model.

To expand the hab ring, you need to be on EVA, and have sufficient material kits to expand it (and it is a LOT.  This is not a hollow ring, it's filled with all of the structueal support, equopment, bulkheads, etc. that it needs to operate... which means a lot of mass.

[Chainbullet]

I see. Thank you! This fixes my issues. I had used USI in the past, and was quite confused with all the new additions to it. 

[TauPhraim]

 

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Drills should already have the Geology bonus (at least the MKS ones)

I don't think this is the case currently: drills only have ModuleResourceHarvester_USI, which is in USITools and does not have access to kolonization info. It implements IEfficiencyBonusConsumer but no one makes use of that, as far as I can tell (MKSModules query IEfficiencyBonusConsumer's of their own part only). (this would also be fixable by switching to a vessel module).

 

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Efficiency Parts should not take into account these bonuses as noted in #1114 and be a flat 100%.  Let me know if you have a PR for that one bit,

Sorry for the late reply, but I don't have anything yet, I'm trying to get a better global picture first.

 

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

All three bonuses are used frequently enough IMO

At least for MKS converters (MKSModule), BonusEffect is set to "FundsBoost" (= geology) and is apparently never changed, so all converters are using that. (fixable by setting different BonusEffect in the parts config I suppose).

 

Less technically, but I must highlight the terminology problem again too: some Kerbals are "Geologists", with a "GeologySkill". Yet they don't contribute to the thing displayed as "Geology research" (only to sifters efficiency).

The "Geology research" is contributed to by Kerbals having a "FundsBoost" skill. This is more than confusing, and I think it would be futile to rely on a documentation trying to explain that (assuming people even search for it, because "geology"="geology" seems simple enough at first view).

That's why I proposed additional research fields. With an interesting matrix of what-specialist-contributes-to-what-research, they would not all advance in lockstep. (and actually, once they're only used as kolony rewards, funds/science/rep totals need not be displayed at all in the dashboard).

 

[voicey99]

20 minutes ago, Chainbullet said:

I see. Thank you! This fixes my issues. I had used USI in the past, and was quite confused with all the new additions to it. 

It will tell you how many resources you need to expand it in the VAB (under USIAnimation) and, if i'm not mistaken, you will need materialkits of equivalent mass (As RD said, to represent the things that go in it) to the difference between its deployed and deflated masses. IMO it's significantly easier and cheaper to just send inflatable modules up pre-inflated unless you are producing MKTs onsite. The main use for the habring is to grant a massive habitation time bonus to kerbals in USI-LS, which MKS is designed to work with-its other function is to boost output from agmodules on the base/station, which are useless without LS installed, as both resources they produce (Supplies and Organics) only have uses within LS. As such, the habring is just bling in base MKS.

10 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

I don't think this is the case currently: drills only have ModuleResourceHarvester_USI, which is in USITools and does not have access to kolonization info. It implements IEfficiencyBonusConsumer but no one makes use of that, as far as I can tell (MKSModules query IEfficiencyBonusConsumer's of their own part only). (this would also be fixable by switching to a vessel module).

Yep, drills do not get any bonuses. My Minmus drilling platforms have been at 85% load since the start despite having accrued a 182% geology rating since then.

[DStaal]

19 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Yep, drills do not get any bonuses. My Minmus drilling platforms have been at 85% load since the start despite having accrued a 182% geology rating since then.

Which actually brings up a question I have: Would it be possible to put in a limiter (that is: A slider you can adjust) for the processing rates for the modules that can have their efficiencies increased by Kolonization?  The thought here would be that you might want to run a base or site at the 'rated' output, so that your heat-rejection/power/resources are adequate to the task, at least until you build out.

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, DStaal said:

Which actually brings up a question I have: Would it be possible to put in a limiter (that is: A slider you can adjust) for the processing rates for the modules that can have their efficiencies increased by Kolonization?  The thought here would be that you might want to run a base or site at the 'rated' output, so that your heat-rejection/power/resources are adequate to the task, at least until you build out.

That would be pretty nice actually because, while more efficiency is great, runaway efficiency that chews through your machinery like hyperedit, nukes your resource stockpiles and makes your reactor spew flames trying to power everything benefits nobody. Get a high enough rating and it'll be like 0.50.12 all over again.

[jd284]

25 minutes ago, DStaal said:

Which actually brings up a question I have: Would it be possible to put in a limiter (that is: A slider you can adjust) for the processing rates for the modules that can have their efficiencies increased by Kolonization?  The thought here would be that you might want to run a base or site at the 'rated' output, so that your heat-rejection/power/resources are adequate to the task, at least until you build out.

If you like micromanagement you can do that by adjusting machinery levels, or by adjusting the "governor" of the efficiency parts. Although I haven't been doing that since it affects too many other modules at once and is harder to manage.

But you'll need to adjust it again every once in a while as the bonuses go up so it does get a bit tedious.

For the most part the "natural" depletion of machinery keeps that less of a problem than it would be otherwise. Unless you have a large number of kerbals increasing kolonization stats...

[RoverDude]

27 minutes ago, DStaal said:

Which actually brings up a question I have: Would it be possible to put in a limiter (that is: A slider you can adjust) for the processing rates for the modules that can have their efficiencies increased by Kolonization?  The thought here would be that you might want to run a base or site at the 'rated' output, so that your heat-rejection/power/resources are adequate to the task, at least until you build out.

 

51 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

It will tell you how many resources you need to expand it in the VAB (under USIAnimation) and, if i'm not mistaken, you will need materialkits of equivalent mass (As RD said, to represent the things that go in it) to the difference between its deployed and deflated masses. IMO it's significantly easier and cheaper to just send inflatable modules up pre-inflated unless you are producing MKTs onsite. The main use for the habring is to grant a massive habitation time bonus to kerbals in USI-LS, which MKS is designed to work with-its other function is to boost output from agmodules on the base/station, which are useless without LS installed, as both resources they produce (Supplies and Organics) only have uses within LS. As such, the habring is just bling in base MKS.

Yep, drills do not get any bonuses. My Minmus drilling platforms have been at 85% load since the start despite having accrued a 182% geology rating since then.

This was a config bug, sorted for the next patch.

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

I don't think this is the case currently: drills only have ModuleResourceHarvester_USI, which is in USITools and does not have access to kolonization info. It implements IEfficiencyBonusConsumer but no one makes use of that, as far as I can tell (MKSModules query IEfficiencyBonusConsumer's of their own part only). (this would also be fixable by switching to a vessel module).

Without going too deep in the woods, trust me in that these modules communicate just fine, and USI Tools does in fact have access to Kolonization data (I had to design it that way without doing a circular reference).    Not ruling out a vessel module (which has an entirely different set of considerations to sort through, and will still have to parse out colony parts, etc.) - but this specific problem was solved with a small change to the configs.

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

At least for MKS converters (MKSModule), BonusEffect is set to "FundsBoost" (= geology) and is apparently never changed, so all converters are using that. (fixable by setting different BonusEffect in the parts config I suppose).

As I noted earlier, these bonus effects are not just used on MKS converters   Tho the omission of switching some modules over to ScienceBoost (specifically, all of the agriculture and farming modules) is a but that I can sort since I am in configs anyway.

 

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

Sorry for the late reply, but I don't have anything yet, I'm trying to get a better global picture first.

No worries, it looks like a chunk of it was taken care of in a prior update, and I fixed another contributor to this just a bit ago for the current patch.

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

Less technically, but I must highlight the terminology problem again too: some Kerbals are "Geologists", with a "GeologySkill". Yet they don't contribute to the thing displayed as "Geology research" (only to sifters efficiency).

The "Geology research" is contributed to by Kerbals having a "FundsBoost" skill. This is more than confusing, and I think it would be futile to rely on a documentation trying to explain that (assuming people even search for it, because "geology"="geology" seems simple enough at first view).

That's why I proposed additional research fields. With an interesting matrix of what-specialist-contributes-to-what-research, they would not all advance in lockstep. (and actually, once they're only used as kolony rewards, funds/science/rep totals need not be displayed at all in the dashboard).

 

The two are mutually exclusive (the confusion RE Geologists, and the concept that Traits = Effects = Currency).  If you have a suggestion for a synonym for geologists, I am all ears.  But I think you're incorrect RE the need to display colony rewards.  It's a pretty core part of how all of this works, and I would not be interested in changing that.

23 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

That would be pretty nice actually because, while more efficiency is great, runaway efficiency that chews through your machinery like hyperedit, nukes your resource stockpiles and makes your reactor spew flames trying to power everything benefits nobody. Get a high enough rating and it'll be like 0.50.12 all over again.

While I am not opposed to a governor, I am careful about adding more stuff to the PAW.  Log a github issue

[PolecatEZ]

Geologists in the context of exploration or mineral exploitation would be "prospectors" or "surveyors".  In digging around I also see reference to "geophysicists".

Edited February 20, 2017 by PolecatEZ

[TauPhraim]

17 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Without going too deep in the woods, trust me in that these modules communicate just fine, and USI Tools does in fact have access to Kolonization data (I had to design it that way without doing a circular reference).

With all respect I think I went into the woods, at least partly, investigating the code. I suppose you implemented this via the generic _bonusList map, but this is not filled for drills. This has been confirmed by voicey99's observations.

If you try to fix it without a vessel module, each converter (each MKS module) will try to set a bonus for each drill on the vessel. At best, they will all set the same value, and it will be slow (all MKSModule doing the same calculations).

 

23 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

But I think you're incorrect RE the need to display colony rewards.  It's a pretty core part of how all of this works, and I would not be interested in changing that.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding. What I mean is that currently, before clicking on "check kolony rewards", I have no clue about how much this will harvest. The "x% research" displays are almost unhelpful for that, as I could use them to predict rewards only if I remembered their previous values, and could perform the calculations myself. So I thought the rewards might as well be 100% hidden, allowing the "x% research" to be renamed if needed.

[RoverDude]

3 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

With all respect I think I went into the woods, at least partly, investigating the code. I suppose you implemented this via the generic _bonusList map, but this is not filled for drills. This has been confirmed by voicey99's observations.

If you try to fix it without a vessel module, each converter (each MKS module) will try to set a bonus for each drill on the vessel. At best, they will all set the same value, and it will be slow (all MKSModule doing the same calculations).

With all due respect, I wrote these modules.  And while help is totally appreciated (a lot of folks toss in pull requests, etc.), it would take a lot of convincing to make a major, wholesale change on this codebase when the solution is already there in config files.

As noted, I already saw the config bit that was missing.  Your follow-up is incorrect however - MKSModule sets converters only for that part's converters, not for the whole vessel - each one is (necessarily) independent.  Because these bonuses and updates are very part centric, I am not convinced in this scenario that a vessel module is the correct or desirable solution for a variety of reasons.  Performance is not really an issue given it only kicks over once every 5 seconds.

9 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

Maybe there is a misunderstanding. What I mean is that currently, before clicking on "check kolony rewards", I have no clue about how much this will harvest. The "x% research" displays are almost unhelpful for that, as I could use them to predict rewards only if I remembered their previous values, and could perform the calculations myself. So I thought the rewards might as well be 100% hidden, allowing the "x% research" to be renamed if needed.

These two have nothing to do with eachother.  The percentage research displayed is simply how far along the path you are, and used as part of the efficiency calculation.  Checking colony rewards just gives you the stuff you've earned since your last visit (then drops to zero).  While your current (outstanding) reward is effectively hidden, having visibility to your colony's progression is actually really important, especially the kolonization stat (which affects hab immunity in late game once it hits 500%).

To add - the one bit where we do look vessel-wide - or rather, base wide since disconnected bases are supported - is when we have to do our efficiency part calculations and determine at this time what slice of the pie this specific part has.  

[TauPhraim]

2 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

 Your follow-up is incorrect however - MKSModule sets converters only for that part's converters, not for the whole vessel - each one is (necessarily) independent.

I assumed you'd change that to fix drills not being boosted. But another solution is to give drills the MKSModule I guess, thought that makes things even more inefficient (the 5s period is a quick win for optmization, but I fear this kind of things could cause problems like catchup not behaving like focused time and the like).

 

6 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

These two have nothing to do with eachother.  The percentage research displayed is simply how far along the path you are, and used as part of the efficiency calculation.  Checking colony rewards just gives you the stuff you've earned since your last visit (then drops to zero)

They do have something in common (at least currently): they are boosted by the same skill, namely FundsBoost for Geology and Funds, for example. And I think FundsBoost=>Geology is not very self-explanatory, that's why I propose to separate/name a bit better.

[RoverDude]

1 minute ago, TauPhraim said:

I assumed you'd change that to fix drills not being boosted. But another solution is to give drills the MKSModule I guess, thought that makes things even more inefficient (the 5s period is a quick win for optmization, but I fear this kind of things could cause problems like catchup not behaving like focused time and the like).

 

They do have something in common (at least currently): they are boosted by the same skill, namely FundsBoost for Geology and Funds, for example. And I think FundsBoost=>Geology is not very self-explanatory, that's why I propose to separate/name a bit better.

We're going to really have to agree to disagree on this.  While I could counter and come back with precisely (again) why I chose a Part Module vs a Vessel Module, or my preference on the design of Kolony rewards, I am seeing diminishing value in doing so, and I do need to focus on a release.

[ExavierMacbeth]

How long does it take a Medbay to revert a Kerbal out of Tourist status?

[RoverDude]

Depends on how long they have been under.

[ExavierMacbeth]

Oh gezz. I am pretty sure they have been stuck like that for about a year now waiting for me to get a medbay to that base. Have 6 of them in that status and I can't eva them to put them into another vessel (base with hatches but no docking ports). If its going to take that long to get them back out I am going to have to come up with another solution or the whole facility will go down first lol

This base wasn't suppsoe to have a return trip for them lol

 

EDIT: Ok I managed to reset their Hab timers. I used my last functioning engineer to sever spare hitchhiker off the rig, stuck a probe to it to make it a new vessel, connected it with a KIS pipe, and transfered the tourists into it. The Hab timer reset as soon as i disconnected it.

 

Pain in the butt but a good way to reset them rather than waiting for the medbay to catch up. Hopfully the medbay will be a better option long term as I am too lazy to do this often lol

Edited February 20, 2017 by ExavierMacbeth

[RoverDude]

The med-bay is a fine option - Just that in your sample above, it would take about two months to resuscitate from the horrible ordeal you put them through.

[ExavierMacbeth]

I blame Jeb... He is the pilot in charge of the facility.

[Kaa253]

Hi @RoverDude. I am watching your twitch stream from a couple of days ago. I generally miss them live (time zones for one reason) but very much enjoy watching them when I can.    

Anyway, I am currently watching you draw out a plan to build a big commodities return vessel using GC on the Mun and fly it back to Kerbin for "profit ???". My own findings are that GC calculates the cost of a DIY kit container for any ship based on the cost of that ship with all the containers being full, regardless of whether the ship was saved in the VAB with those containers filled or empty. Consequently, it seems to be impossible to build anything with GC that can be filled with any resource (or not) and then returned to Kerbin to sell for any profit at all (with one exception I can think of... eg. make a DIY kit full of dirt containers and then change them to a more valuable type of resource container after GC construction - then fill and return).

Maybe you realise this later on in the stream?

I hope my message on @allista's thread last week made sense? and maybe this one too? 

 

[Terwin]

2 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

Hi @RoverDude. I am watching your twitch stream from a couple of days ago. I generally miss them live (time zones for one reason) but very much enjoy watching them when I can.    

Anyway, I am currently watching you draw out a plan to build a big commodities return vessel using GC on the Mun and fly it back to Kerbin for "profit ???". My own findings are that GC calculates the cost of a DIY kit container for any ship based on the cost of that ship with all the containers being full, regardless of whether the ship was saved in the VAB with those containers filled or empty. Consequently, it seems to be impossible to build anything with GC that can be filled with any resource (or not) and then returned to Kerbin to sell for any profit at all (with one exception I can think of... eg. make a DIY kit full of dirt containers and then change them to a more valuable type of resource container after GC construction - then fill and return).

Maybe you realise this later on in the stream?

I hope my message on @allista's thread last week made sense? and maybe this one too? 

 

Are you sure about that?  I have found that my kits cost almost exactly 200% of the 'empty' price of the vessel being built.(I manually empty all containers except EC)

I'll need to check that out tonight...

[Kaa253]

8 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Are you sure about that?

Unless my install is bugged? Take a probe core slap on an empty 2.5m flat Kontainer tank. Set it to specialized parts and leave it empty. Cost in VAB is now 2,345 funds. Save the vessel. Start a new vessel. Grab a DIY Kit and pack the saved vessel - bang! Now context menu shows Kit Cost 146,445 funds which is basically the cost of a 2.5m tank full of specialized parts.

Make certain you touch the DIY kit in some way as I see a lag in the VAB cost computation. Is this a symptom of something wrong with my install? Should I start pulling mods one at a time? Nobody has confirmed this in either forum thread at all.

[Terwin]

2 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

Unless my install is bugged? Take a probe core slap on an empty 2.5m flat Kontainer tank. Set it to specialized parts and leave it empty. Cost in VAB is now 2,345 funds. Save the vessel. Start a new vessel. Grab a DIY Kit and pack the saved vessel - bang! Now context menu shows Kit Cost 146,445 funds which is basically the cost of a 2.5m tank full of specialized parts.

Make certain you touch the DIY kit in some way as I see a lag in the VAB cost computation. Is this a symptom of something wrong with my install? Should I start pulling mods one at a time? Nobody has confirmed this in either forum thread at all.

I only tested it a couple of times, so it is entirely possible that my empty cost was 1/2 of my full cost... does not make a lot of sense to pull out those resources then I guess... 

[Gooner]

Hi, ive got a problem with EC charge and how this mod deals with it while on rails. If i have the ship focused then that ship will not deplete its EC throughout its orbit, but if i focus another ship then the ship on rails will lose all its EC within a few days (according to the MKS gui). I have guys on science modules in space stations but atm i have to bounce back and forth between ships to reset their EC because the gui tells me they have run out of charge but when i go back to focus on the ship it shows that it has full charge still.