totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[TauPhraim]

5 hours ago, sh1pman said:

Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is?

This screenshot's one looks correct: geology 200%, squared = x4. 3 water bays = x3. Total x12, and you're not far from 1200%

[voicey99]

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

Not the number, just the highest engineer star rating.

See the stock wiki to see how engineers affect drilling:  http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/'Drill-O-Matic'_Mining_Excavator

Some MKS professions can replace the engineer, but I am not sure which ones(geologist?)

 

Once again, it is just the highest star rating among the applicable kerbals.  

Geologists are the MKS replacement for the Engineer, but they only have DrillSkill. If you want the Engineer's RepairSkill, ConverterSkill or GeologySkill you will need a Mechanic, Technician or Geologist respectively.

The formula for stock drills is [base efficiency]*[(0.2*[n_o of stars of the highest-lvl engineer/miner+1])+0.05]*concentration. For MKS converters and drills, it's [prev equation result]*[number of bays]*[geology bonus as a decimal (e.g. 120%=1.2)]²

Edited March 8, 2017 by voicey99

[TauPhraim]

I read the code and understood the formulas. They are complex, and I'm not fond of spending much effort rephrasing them all here, where it will soon get buried into hundreds of forum pages, inaccessible to anyone.

I also think such information should be in-game (not even in a wiki), so I'm working on an in-game description tool. It's still "work in progress" quality, but seeing the recent questions, here it is.

Feel free to try. Despite the "work in progress", feedback is welcome. (I will publish the code soon and maybe screenshots. Let me know if you are interested, and I will give this higher priority).

Unfortunately, regardless of the unfinished state:

• it has been done by reverse engineering, rather than introspection, so it is prone to becoming incorrect when the game changes (it seems correct for the current version of MKS though)
• since it explains in-game vessels, it cannot really be used for mission planning. My view is that, although formula are complicated, by seeing them explained often enough, you can eventually get a good enough feeling of how all this works by yourself
   

[Perringo]

Thank you @voicey99! Just to point out a couple of things, in the wiki says miners are the ones with drilling qualification. And, do you know how to calculate that "Geology bonus"?.

[voicey99]

2 minutes ago, Perringo said:

Thank you @voicey99! Just to point out a couple of things, in the wiki says miners are the ones with drilling qualification. And, do you know how to calculate that "Geology bonus"?.

It's one of the three Kolonisation stats (visible from the kolonisation dashboard applet), and increases over time depending on how many people you have with the FundsBoost attribute (check kolonists.cfg). In respect to the formula, this is used as a decimal e.g. a geology bonus of 173% would be used as 1.73 (the base stat for all bodies is 100%).

Miners are not the only ones who can drill, vanilla engineers do it as well.

Edited March 8, 2017 by voicey99

[Terwin]

1 hour ago, Perringo said:

Well, now I'm confused. Does MKS drills work exactly as stock? If that the case, the math of that is in the stock wiki and is true that only the highest engineer/miner (that's the other profession) counts for the calculation. If this is the case, the MKS wiki is totally wrong as it says:

Not exactly like stock(MKS has multiple bays and also has Kolonization bonuses), but the way Kerbals affect drilling is the same as stock.

See the quote from voicey99 below for the full calculation

1 hour ago, Perringo said:

And with the second part of your message... do you mean that if I have lets say an industrial base with 4 industrial refineries and 2 assembly plants, I will get the same result with one 5 star engineer in the whole base than if I fill the rest of the places with 4 star engineers? Things are getting weirder by the moment...

Yes, one 5-star engineer will give you better results than 20 4-star engineers, and the same results as one 5-star+ 20 4-stars.

Look at it this way: it is mostly automated, but in a generic way, so the engineer is mostly optimizing for the current situation and addressing crises as they arise.  You do not need an engineer per-module if 99% of the time is spent 'on call' waiting for something to go wrong.

 

7 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Geologists are the MKS replacement for the Engineer, but they only have DrillSkill. If you want the Engineer's RepairSkill, ConverterSkill or GeologySkill you will need a Mechanic, Technician or Geologist respectively.

The formula for stock drills is [base efficiency]*[(0.2*[n_o of stars of the highest-lvl engineer/miner+1])+0.05]*concentration. For MKS converters and drills, it's [prev equation result]*[number of bays]*[geology bonus as a decimal (e.g. 120%=1.2)]²

The Geology bonus is visible in the UI, and it grows over time based on how many geology-related kerbals you have on the body in question.

[Perringo]

Thank you so much for your answer guys. If you are correct, I believe that when it comes to drilling, everything is well defined. The only thing missing is the formula for the Geology bonus. I know it is shown in the UI but I would like to be able to estimate it beforehand.

About one single engineer to run a full industry... I have to say that I don't buy it. If it depended on me, the more people you have working the more production you should have. At least you should have a minimum staff in each module. We are talking of minning, processing, manufacturing goods in order to make rockets in other planets!! And kerbals also have to eat, sleep, enjoy the habitation facilities, now even "you know what" to make kerbal babies.... But any way, that's RD bussiness.

We more or less have the formula of the drilling process! Now what about the manufacturing processes?? Come on guys you are on a winning streak!! I will give a go to @TauPhraim's application and see if I can figure something out.

[TauPhraim]

11 minutes ago, Perringo said:

The only thing missing is the formula for the Geology bonus

Per planet:

For each MKSModule (mostly converter parts), for each Kerbal on board the whole vessel with FundsBoost skill: gain 1 "point" per second (only 0.1 if in orbit).

Geology research = 100% + square_root(points gained) / 10000

 

Ex: 2 converters, 5 Kolonists on board. During 116 kerbin days (=2.5million seconds) => 150% Geology

[DStaal]

RD did have the concept of needing certain numbers of Kerbals for full production in earlier versions of UKS - but it was confusing and hard to realize what was going on, so it got dropped.

As for the  Geology bonus - on a new world, it will always start at 100%.  And it will always increase over time, as long as you have Kerbals anywhere on/around the planet.  So basically: It's going to be a moving target.  Either pick a minimum that you need, or a maximum that you want to be able to handle, and work with those numbers.

[Tarheel1999]

RD used to have a much more complicated efficiency formula involving the number of kerbals, number of workspaces, and the number of living spaces. It was dropped for a simpler approach which is better for playability and predictability.  Think of the Kolony bonuses as abstractions of this concept. 

Dont forget that this whole line of posts started with you wanting to know how to precisely calculate efficiency. That was difficult, if not impossible under the old approach. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Tarheel1999

[Terwin]

44 minutes ago, Perringo said:

We more or less have the formula of the drilling process! Now what about the manufacturing processes?? Come on guys you are on a winning streak!! I will give a go to @TauPhraim's application and see if I can figure something out.

For the base functionality, take a look at the MKS Wiki Manufacturing page:

https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Functions-(Manufacturing)

(it also has a link to the USI-LS wiki page with details on producing supplies)

Crew and Kolonization bonuses apply as well of course.

[sh1pman]

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

This screenshot's one looks correct: geology 200%, squared = x4. 3 water bays = x3. Total x12, and you're not far from 1200%

So, the geology bonus is squared? Well, I didn't know that. 

[Perringo]

14 minutes ago, Tarheel1999 said:

RD used to have a much more complicated efficiency formula involving the number of kerbals, number of workspaces, and the number of living spaces. It was dropped for a simpler approach which is better for playability and predictability.  Think of the Kolony bonuses as abstractions of this concept. 

Dont forget that this whole line of posts started with you wanting to know how to precisely calculate efficiency. That was difficult, if not impossible under the old approach. 

I see yor point. Though I only need one kerbal to run the industry, the more kerbals I have the faster the kolonization bonuses will rise. It makes sense.

 

40 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

Per planet:

For each MKSModule (mostly converter parts), for each Kerbal on board the whole vessel with FundsBoost skill: gain 1 "point" per second (only 0.1 if in orbit).

Geology research = 100% + square_root(points gained) / 10000

 

Ex: 2 converters, 5 Kolonists on board. During 116 kerbin days (=2.5million seconds) => 150% Geology

This is exactly what i was looking for. Now I can estimate drilling outputs! Thank you! However, shouldn't be the kerbals with the Geologyskill the ones who affect the Geology factor?

 

6 minutes ago, Terwin said:

For the base functionality, take a look at the MKS Wiki Manufacturing page:

https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Functions-(Manufacturing)

(it also has a link to the USI-LS wiki page with details on producing supplies)

Crew and Kolonization bonuses apply as well of course.

I have and found out that the output of a module depends on the level of machinery present, being 100% if full and 0% if empty. Still, final productivity depends on other factors as well. Which are those crew and kolonization bonuses? Are there other factors involved?

[Terwin]

6 minutes ago, Perringo said:

I have and found out that the output of a module depends on the level of machinery present, being 100% if full and 0% if empty. Still, final productivity depends on other factors as well. Which are those crew and kolonization bonuses? Are there other factors involved?

Scientists affect farming and the biology bonus, Pilots affect Logistics and the habitation bonus.

Pilots are pretty much binary with regards to logistics, pilot+logistics module or not.

I think scientists and their level have an impact on farming similar to Engineers on mining.

Except for the nom-o-matics, those ignore pretty much everything except mulch availability, fertilizer availability, EC availability and storage space for the supplies.

The efficiency parts questions answered previously also affect production.

[TauPhraim]

18 minutes ago, Perringo said:

However, shouldn't be the kerbals with the Geologyskill the ones who affect the Geology factor?

If you mean I made an error writing the formula, I don't think so.

45 minutes ago, sh1pman said:

So, the geology bonus is squared? Well, I didn't know that. 

All converters use the geology bonus. Some use it twice (squared), this is the default. But some use one of the other bonuses. Example the Tundra Ag has "BonusEffect = ScienceBoost", so it will use geology*botany

[Perringo]

Thank you very much guys. I wont bother you any more with this. You have been very helpful and I feel confident I can figure this out and make the mother of all MKS spreadsheets. I have to say I have installed @TauPhraim's application and this guy really know what he's doing. I have just give it a look and it works very well. I think I can figure out what I have missing with its help. Best wishes!

[voicey99]

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

Per planet:

For each MKSModule (mostly converter parts), for each Kerbal on board the whole vessel with FundsBoost skill: gain 1 "point" per second (only 0.1 if in orbit).

Geology research = 100% + square_root(points gained) / 10000

 

Ex: 2 converters, 5 Kolonists on board. During 116 kerbin days (=2.5million seconds) => 150% Geology

Again, this doesn't seem to add up. As a test I left 9 kerbs with the FundsBoost trait (an assortment of engineers, technicians and miners) on Moho (which was unkolonised) for exactly 100d (2160000s) with a ship containing 7 MKSModules (6 Ranger batts and a 3.75m kerbitat). By your formula, I should have got 100+(SQRT(7*9*2160000))/10000=216.653% rating, but I actually ended up with 144.010%. Seems like the MKSModules in Ranger batteries don't contribute (remove them from the equation and use just the Module from the kerbitat and it checks out perfectly)-EDIT: STOP PRESS!!! I was looking at the cfg for the Ranger_PowerPack, not the Ranger_BatPak. Derp.

Edited March 8, 2017 by voicey99

[TauPhraim]

6 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Seems like the MKSModules in Ranger batteries don't contribute

The ranger batteries do not have a MKSModule on my install (I really meant this litteral module, not "any part from MKS the mod").

[voicey99]

Just now, TauPhraim said:

The ranger batteries do not have a MKSModule on my install (I really meant this litteral module, not "any part from MKS the mod").

I was looking at the cfg for the Ranger_PowerPack (the RTG) by mistake, not the Ranger_BatPak (the batto).

[TheRagingIrishman]

@RoverDude If I was going to make a PR about Kontainers, it should be done to USICore right?

[Gilph]

Edited issue with screenshots and USI save: https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/issues/1189

[Perringo]

Hello @RoverDude! I just wanted to point some issues I am encountering in my study of this wonderful mod. Regarding drilling:

- Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that the difference between automated and manned drills is that in automated are not applied geology or crew bonuses. The problem is that, in practice, the geology bonus is still applied (I don't know if this is a mistake). As the crew bonus is actually a penalty until kerbals reach 4 stars, the result is that you get much more output with an automated drill than with a manned one with a level 1 engineer, for example.

- The base electric charge consumed by MEU 500 and Industrial strip miner are 20 and 60 u/s and not 40 and 360 u/s, as it says in the part description available in VAB/SPH.

 

And as a reflexion/suggestion, if the geology bonus is calculated like this

17 hours ago, TauPhraim said:

Per planet:

For each MKSModule (mostly converter parts), for each Kerbal on board the whole vessel with FundsBoost skill: gain 1 "point" per second (only 0.1 if in orbit).

Geology research = 100% + square_root(points gained) / 10000

then this bonus increase with no limit and it can get really really high if you have numerous big long-term bases, making bases finally impossible to run as electricity demands increases ridiculesly. I would suggest the bonus increased until a limit (for example 1000%) so it could be possible for example to plan a base in the short term, with low bonuses, and in the long term with a fixed maximum output you can know beforehand. What do you think?

 

[RoverDude]

Going to be doing an efficiency review based on some of the feedback here, and tossing out a pre-release for the weekend.

[sh1pman]

12 minutes ago, Perringo said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that the difference between automated and manned drills is that in automated are not applied geology or crew bonuses. The problem is that, in practice, the geology bonus is still applied (I don't know if this is a mistake). As the crew bonus is actually a penalty until kerbals reach 4 stars, the result is that you get much more output with an automated drill than with a manned one with a level 1 engineer, for example.

I agree, automated drills are massively overpowered right now. I think they need to be slightly better than normal drills when used without an engineer on board. Let's say, 10% efficiency of a standard drill sounds good enough. And of course, they shouldn't receive any geology bonuses, it just doesn't make any sense.

[SlimJim89]

If I have a base with the Kerbitat and efficiency modules at a certain spot in a Mun crater, can I connect a "farm station" with it if I put the farm station ~5km away? Do I have to use a logistics module(s) in between to connect them? Will bases 5km away from eachother share resources?

Have I missed some feature?