RoverDude Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, sh1pman said: I've just scanned Gilly and found out that in my save it doesn't have any silicates! I mean, it's a big space rock, what else can it be made of? Just ship them up from Eve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, RoverDude said: Just ship them up from Eve If only we had orbital logistics back... then it still would be the silliest thing to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd284 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 hour ago, jd284 said: Huh. I was going to say that I did because I checked the CCK.version file and saw 1.2.2. But because the versions are so similar I saw the KSP_VERSION instead, which was also 1.2.2 ... silly thing. Well, it was only half successful. Now I have the Rovers tab, but lost the Konstruction tab with the cradles in the process... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverDude Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, jd284 said: Well, it was only half successful. Now I have the Rovers tab, but lost the Konstruction tab with the cradles in the process... There's something flaky going on then.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirroSeranel Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 34 minutes ago, sh1pman said: I've just scanned Gilly and found out that in my save it doesn't have any silicates! I mean, it's a big space rock, what else can it be made of? Yeah, I don't actually like that the resource generation is random... it's not very realistic. I wonder if that's something that's moddable... If it isn't, then maybe @RoverDude would consider tossing an extra conversion in, to turn Dirt into Silicates at a 90% efficiency or so. Or... heh, Minerals. Since 25% of all known minerals -are- silicates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverDude Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 It's by design that you will sometimes find planets that don't have all of the stuff you need. It is random to encourage exploration and to make every save different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, FirroSeranel said: Yeah, I don't actually like that the resource generation is random... it's not very realistic. I wonder if that's something that's moddable... If it isn't, then maybe @RoverDude would consider tossing an extra conversion in, to turn Dirt into Silicates at a 90% efficiency or so. Or... heh, Minerals. Since 25% of all known minerals -are- silicates... I like it. I also suggested that we could get minerals out of hydrates as a side product of generating water. It's realistic, and can help if you're really unlucky with RNG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd284 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 17 minutes ago, RoverDude said: There's something flaky going on then.... Any way I can help debug it? I have Konstruction 0.1.11 and USITools 0.8.16 from the 02/24 constellation, and only see the "EVA Items" from KIS, and then Rovers / Life Support / Containers / Kolonization / Logistics / Manufacturing tabs. No Konstruction, and the parts only appear when switching to module or tech level filters in advanced mode. So it's not that big a deal since I can still get the parts, just a bit more tedious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, RoverDude said: It's by design that you will sometimes find planets that don't have all of the stuff you need. It is random to encourage exploration and to make every save different. But how cool it would be if we had something like a chemistry module that can produce some of the missing resources? You can balance it by making it require a scientist to operate and locking the module under an expensive science node. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirroSeranel Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, RoverDude said: It's by design that you will sometimes find planets that don't have all of the stuff you need. It is random to encourage exploration and to make every save different. Well yes, I understand that, but it also somewhat flies in the face of physics. For example, "Water" as a pure resource should only really be available in polar craters on moons for example. Everywhere else on a moon, you should need to convert Hydrates to water. And like @sh1pman said, the idea that a brown rocky moon has no silicates is absurd. It's -made- of silicates. That's why it's brown and rocky. So... ideally -some- randomization, body-dependent, would be great. But maybe the likelihood could be tweaked, or a range of concentrations could be established. I'm not saying the stock game should be changed, but a mod that establishes a more realistic resource generation algorithm could be really cool. Actually... I suppose you've already done that, haven't you? <.< So I suppose I'm mostly suggesting a few tweaks. Edited March 16, 2017 by FirroSeranel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DStaal Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, FirroSeranel said: Well yes, I understand that, but it also somewhat flies in the face of physics. For example, "Water" as a pure resource should only really be available in polar craters on moons for example. Everywhere else on a moon, you should need to convert Hydrates to water. And like @sh1pman said, the idea that a brown rocky moon has no silicates is absurd. It's -made- of silicates. That's why it's brown and rocky. So... ideally -some- randomization, body-dependent, would be great. But maybe the likelihood could be tweaked, or a range of concentrations could be established. I'm not saying the stock game should be changed, but a mod that establishes a more realistic resource generation algorithm could be really cool. That's actually all possible with the stock system: You can specify biomes to have maximum and minimum ranges of resources. For most of these, go over to the Community Resource Pack thread and try to talk them into your proposals - for their resources, they set the defaults. I know that for instance they've set Duna's poles to always have water, while the rest of Duna is fairly unlikely to have much. Etc. As for brown and rocky not have silicates being absurd - *iron* is (reddish)brown and rocky when found most times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverDude Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, sh1pman said: I like it. I also suggested that we could get minerals out of hydrates as a side product of generating water. It's realistic, and can help if you're really unlucky with RNG. Except that minerals don't represent silicates (or every single mineral for that matter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirroSeranel Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, DStaal said: That's actually all possible with the stock system: You can specify biomes to have maximum and minimum ranges of resources. For most of these, go over to the Community Resource Pack thread and try to talk them into your proposals - for their resources, they set the defaults. I know that for instance they've set Duna's poles to always have water, while the rest of Duna is fairly unlikely to have much. Etc. As for brown and rocky not have silicates being absurd - *iron* is (reddish)brown and rocky when found most times... Well... that's true, specifically when oxidized, but in a vacuum I'm not so sure. But yes, I suppose it's possible for Gilly to have no silicates, just... not terribly likely. I wonder how hard it is to edit bodies' resource composition by hand in a save... you could edit it manually if you really don't think something is plausible, @sh1pman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverDude Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 13 minutes ago, FirroSeranel said: Well yes, I understand that, but it also somewhat flies in the face of physics. For example, "Water" as a pure resource should only really be available in polar craters on moons for example. Everywhere else on a moon, you should need to convert Hydrates to water. And like @sh1pman said, the idea that a brown rocky moon has no silicates is absurd. It's -made- of silicates. That's why it's brown and rocky. So... ideally -some- randomization, body-dependent, would be great. But maybe the likelihood could be tweaked, or a range of concentrations could be established. I'm not saying the stock game should be changed, but a mod that establishes a more realistic resource generation algorithm could be really cool. Actually... I suppose you've already done that, haven't you? <.< So I suppose I'm mostly suggesting a few tweaks. You're also making an assumption RE water. It does not necessarily mean pure water, but rather easily capturable stuff. And at the end of the day, it's a very concious gameplay design choice. If there were no constraints (like being able to get almost anything from almost anything else), then there's not much of a point to having more than one resource... at that point just call everything Ore and call it a day. As mentioned, this can easily be done with the stock system. I'm just not a fan of putting too many locked in values in CRP or you start defeating some of the gameplay mechanics (and we already have folks argue that Duna's poles should be CO2 and not Water). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, RoverDude said: Except that minerals don't represent silicates (or every single mineral for that matter) I know, I'm a chemist after all. I was just talking about minerals and hydrates, and how it would be realistic to get some minerals as a byproduct when breaking down hydrates into water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirroSeranel Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) Actually, looking at the .cfg files for Community Resource Pack, it's really really easy to change. They actually have some biomes that are guaranteed to have certain elements, it's just not very extensive. Silicates, for example, are 100% guaranteed in the Mun's Northern Basin. But that's it, nowhere else. The question then is... -when- are resources generated for a given save? On first performing an orbital scan would be my guess, but it could also be done for all bodies upon starting the game, and asteroids when they pop into existence. Edited March 16, 2017 by FirroSeranel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverDude Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 Yup. Feel free to make a mod for it, just bear in mind I'm pretty selective about what ends up in CRP to avoid breaking mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DStaal Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, FirroSeranel said: Well... that's true, specifically when oxidized, but in a vacuum I'm not so sure. But yes, I suppose it's possible for Gilly to have no silicates, just... not terribly likely. I think you'll find most iron in the universe is oxidized - it's rare planets like Earth who manage to get the oxygen *out* of the ore and into gas form. 1 minute ago, FirroSeranel said: Actually, looking at the .cfg files for Community Resource Pack, it's really really easy to change. They actually have some biomes that are guaranteed to have certain elements, it's just not very extensive. Silicates, for example, are 100% guaranteed in the Mun's Northern Basin. But that's it, nowhere else. The question then is... -when- are resources generated for a given save? On first performing an orbital scan would be my guess, but it could also be done for all bodies upon starting the game, and asteroids when they pop into existence. I know from other discussions that resources are tied to the game seed - so basically upon starting a new game. It's not that they are specifically generated out at that point - but that any time you look they'll be computed based on where you are and that seed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirroSeranel Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, DStaal said: I think you'll find most iron in the universe is oxidized - it's rare planets like Earth who manage to get the oxygen *out* of the ore and into gas form. That's... simply not true. Iron meteorites are most often composed purely of iron and nickel, with no oxygen whatsoever, and the M-type asteroids we suspect they come from are theorized to be similar, but with rock mixed in, not oxygen. There are vast clouds of oxygen in many known nebulae, as well, and we've discovered at least one gas giant composed largely of oxygen. In any case, RoverDude's gameplay considerations are ultimately more important, I agree. And I'll concede that there are other brownish substances that Gilly could be made of, other than Silicates. So you just got unlucky, I guess, @sh1pman. What were you intending to use a Gilly base for, if I can ask? It'd be an unbelievable pain in the backside to build a base there... so I'm guessing to manufacture Eve landers in situ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd284 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, DStaal said: I think you'll find most iron in the universe is oxidized - it's rare planets like Earth who manage to get the oxygen *out* of the ore and into gas form. I know from other discussions that resources are tied to the game seed - so basically upon starting a new game. It's not that they are specifically generated out at that point - but that any time you look they'll be computed based on where you are and that seed. I'm not sure about most iron being oxidized, that's true for iron close to the surface but I'd expect that most iron will be in planet's cores, where it's not oxidized but alloyed with other metals such as nickel. And yes, the game seed is basically a "universe number", so changing that moves you to a different universe with different resource distributions. If you find one you like it's easy to keep the same universe by changing it back in the savegame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenpsp Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 That is assuming the chosen colors actually mean something other than arbitrary choices. I mean we have a moon that looks like mint ice cream... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, FirroSeranel said: That's... simply not true. Iron meteorites are most often composed purely of iron and nickel, with no oxygen whatsoever, and the M-type asteroids we suspect they come from are theorized to be similar, but with rock mixed in, not oxygen. There are vast clouds of oxygen in many known nebulae, as well, and we've discovered at least one gas giant composed largely of oxygen. In any case, RoverDude's gameplay considerations are ultimately more important, I agree. And I'll concede that there are other brownish substances that Gilly could be made of, other than Silicates. So you just got unlucky, I guess, @sh1pman. What were you intending to use a Gilly base for, if I can ask? It'd be an unbelievable pain in the backside to build a base there... so I'm guessing to manufacture Eve landers in situ? Well, the base lander was supposed to land on Eve and start a colony there. Unfortunately, it kept flipping over during reentry and exploding hilariously, even though it had an inflatable heatshield. I guess it was too long and had too much mass on its other side. So after countless attempts to land this thing I decided to give up and start a Gilly base instead. Fortunately, the lander had just enough fuel left to get to Gilly from low Eve orbit. So that's how the Gilly base was established. P.S. I've just noticed that there actually is a tiny amount of silicates at one of Gilly's biomes! It's so low that I can't even mine it with my small drills, but it's better than nothing. Strange, the orbital scanner said 0% avg. in that biome before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DStaal Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, sh1pman said: Well, the base lander was supposed to land on Eve and start a colony there. Unfortunately, it kept flipping over during reentry and exploding hilariously, even though it had an inflatable heatshield. I guess it was too long and had too much mass on its other side. So after countless attempts to land this thing I decided to give up and start a Gilly base instead. Fortunately, the lander had just enough fuel left to get to Gilly from low Eve orbit. So that's how the Gilly base was established. P.S. I've just noticed that there actually is a tiny amount of silicates at one of Gilly's biomes! It's so low that I can't even mine it with my small drills, but it's better than nothing. Strange, the orbital scanner said 0% avg. in that biome before... Averages from orbit are often just a tad low. (And are the average for the whole biome, not any specific spot.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirroSeranel Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, DStaal said: Averages from orbit are often just a tad low. (And are the average for the whole biome, not any specific spot.) Is there variation within biomes? I've never found any if there is. 23 minutes ago, sh1pman said: Well, the base lander was supposed to land on Eve and start a colony there. Unfortunately, it kept flipping over during reentry and exploding hilariously, even though it had an inflatable heatshield. I guess it was too long and had too much mass on its other side. So after countless attempts to land this thing I decided to give up and start a Gilly base instead. Fortunately, the lander had just enough fuel left to get to Gilly from low Eve orbit. So that's how the Gilly base was established. P.S. I've just noticed that there actually is a tiny amount of silicates at one of Gilly's biomes! It's so low that I can't even mine it with my small drills, but it's better than nothing. Strange, the orbital scanner said 0% avg. in that biome before... Inflatable heat shields are actually quite tricky, and enjoy flipping upside-down to become inflatable parachutes, I've found. A solution is to put one at either end, or to use other inflatables at the back to increase drag at the rear. Also be sure to move the heat shield up as far as you can without clipping into other parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, FirroSeranel said: Inflatable heat shields are actually quite tricky, and enjoy flipping upside-down to become inflatable parachutes, I've found. A solution is to put one at either end, or to use other inflatables at the back to increase drag at the rear. Wouldn't work in my case, the lander was just too long and heavy. Even six 2.5m reaction wheels weren't enough to keep it stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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