[1.8] Station Science continued (v2.6.0)

[Sarxis]

Just now, tomf said:

Ok, new release created with the correct models, it looks like ethernet never checked them in to github.

Woah!  I was tempted to joke that it was taking you over an hour to get around to this thinking it might actually be forthcoming in a few days.

Only took you two hours! 

[Cruzo]

Thanks tom, downloaded the update and the parts look great!

[Ricovandijk]

Great visual update! many thanks!

[tomf]

Another patch update, this time restoring the config changes that went astray when I restored the new models.

[dlrk]

Hey, small suggestion:

Kibbal and Bioproducts weigh too much, IMO. As is, a single unit of each weighs 100kg. So, a 50 kibbal/bioproducts experiment requires 5 tons of kibbal, and the 100 unit kibbal container weights 10 tons.

Maybe 1-10 kg a unit would be more logical?

[hab136]

8 hours ago, dlrk said:

Hey, small suggestion:

Kibbal and Bioproducts weigh too much, IMO. As is, a single unit of each weighs 100kg. So, a 50 kibbal/bioproducts experiment requires 5 tons of kibbal, and the 100 unit kibbal container weights 10 tons.

Maybe 1-10 kg a unit would be more logical?

As I understand it, the reason Kibbal and the Zoology lab weigh so much is that they're available early on and give a fair amount of science.  The weight is there to balance the easy science (making it not so easy).

[WuphonsReach]

I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced to around 25kg to 50kg per piece though.  We're already lifting the larger 2.5m modules into orbit, plus power generation and storage.

The 2.5m tank should probably weigh about the same as a LF/Ox tank of similar size.  Although I can't remember if that's already true.  The last time I played with kibble, I remember it being kind of heavy for its size.

[benc85]

Is anyone else getting issues with experiments completing whenever you hit a new biome? I launched an experiment and it completed on the pad. I did another and it completed when i reaced a stable Kerbin orbit.

I'm using a mod called AutomatedScienceSampler which auto completes stuff (cause my old man fingers are aparently too slow these days), but it requires the conditions be met properly, so I dont know how its completing something that requires Kuarks or Urekas...

[SHiRKiT]

Can you add support for the new USI professions? Biologist, for example. There are others more.

[dingdong]

first of all i would like to point out that your work is awesome!

one problem though, the science given by these experiments are just way too low considering its efforts

it takes quite some effort hauling a giant module to the mun you see. but it only gives like a few hundred sci points for basic experiments on muns orbit 

id say multiplying its value about 3-4 times is not balance breaking but rewarding enough to unlock a few sci nodes at that point of progression

this could be easily done by just editing the Experiments .cfg file 

how about an update regarding this?

Edited February 20, 2017 by dingdong

[hab136]

23 hours ago, dingdong said:

first of all i would like to point out that your work is awesome!

one problem though, the science given by these experiments are just way too low considering its efforts

it takes quite some effort hauling a giant module to the mun you see. but it only gives like a few hundred sci points for basic experiments on muns orbit 

id say multiplying its value about 3-4 times is not balance breaking but rewarding enough to unlock a few sci nodes at that point of progression

this could be easily done by just editing the Experiments .cfg file 

how about an update regarding this?

If you do all the experiments in high Mun orbit, you get 560 science x science multiplier (2) = 1,120 science.  Do them again in low Mun orbit and you get 560 x 3 = 1,680.  That's 1,120 + 1,680 = 2,800 science just from Mun orbit just from this mod, never mind the normal science or any other science mods you might have (like DMagic Orbital Science).

Turning that 2,800 into 8,400 (x3) or 11,200 (x4) science would be horribly balance breaking. The entire stock tech tree is only 16,918 points!  The only reason these modules give so much in the first place is that they are big and heavy, and the experiments have to be returned to Kerbin for full value.  You can already unlock the whole tech tree just from Kerbin, Mun and Minmus with stock experiments, so we're already making the game easier by adding more available science.

Don't forget you can do the experiment, process it in the MPL, clean the experiment and do it again, then return for full value.  So it's not just 2,800 science from Mun orbit, but 2,800 plus whatever you get from the MPL, which is several times that.

For other planets you're often stuck waiting for a transfer window, so it can make sense to transmit the results, clean the experiment and do it again, process the experiment in the lab, clean the experiment and do it again, then send the experiment all the way back to Kerbin.  You don't get any more science by transmitting, but you get some science quickly (the transmission) and then the rest of the science when you return, plus the bonus science from the lab.

(Of course, you can do whatever you like with your game; as you mentioned, it's a simple edit to the experiments.cfg file.  If you think it's a good idea, go ahead and try it, then let us know how it works out, especially later in the game)

[dingdong]

1 minute ago, hab136 said:

If you do all the experiments in high Mun orbit, you get 560 science x science multiplier (2) = 1,120 science.  Do them again in low Mun orbit and you get 560 x 3 = 1,680.  That's 1,120 + 1,680 = 2,800 science just from Mun orbit just from this mod, never mind the normal science or any other science mods you might have (like DMagic Orbital Science).

Turning that 2,800 into 8,400 (x3) or 11,200 (x4) science would be horribly balance breaking. The entire stock tech tree is only 16,918 points!  The only reason these modules give so much in the first place is that they are big and heavy, and the experiments have to be returned to Kerbin for full value.  You can already unlock the whole tech tree just from Kerbin, Mun and Minmus with stock experiments, so we're already making the game easier by adding more available science.

Don't forget you can do the experiment, process it in the MPL, clean the experiment and do it again, then return for full value.  So it's not just 2,800 science from Mun orbit, but 2,800 plus whatever you get from the MPL, which is several times that.

For other planets you're often stuck waiting for a transfer window, so it can make sense to transmit the results, clean the experiment and do it again, process the experiment in the lab, clean the experiment and do it again, then send the experiment all the way back to Kerbin.  You don't get any more science by transmitting, but you get some science quickly (the transmission) and then the rest of the science when you return, plus the bonus science from the lab.

(Of course, you can do whatever you like with your game; as you mentioned, it's a simple edit to the experiments.cfg file.  If you think it's a good idea, go ahead and try it, then let us know how it works out, especially later in the game)

maybe i was considering the points as little cuz i was trying out with the ctt& kspi

those mods do require quite some serious amounts of points after the middle point of the game!

anyway thanks for the fast& kind reply!

[Jebs_SY]

Yeah, I think the complete CTT tree is around 120.000 science points.
At least I remember that 100.000 "cheated" points while testing my install on difficulty "normal" were not enough.

[Deltathiago98]

Hello! I just wanna know why did the gastro lab get removed? thankfully I only got one in orbit, all by itself. but it seems a bit weird for me... Thanks!

Edited February 22, 2017 by Deltathiago98

[Udeis]

Great mod!  Quick question:  is there any way to Station Science and MKS from Umbra Space Industries (Found here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154587-122-modular-kolonization-system-mks/&page=75#comment-2971127) to play a bit more nicely together?  The problem is that MKS adds other types of scientists into the game (biologists and geologists for instance) that can't do research on the science lab parts from this mod.  It seems to me that a biologist should be able to work in an orbital Zoology lab... Thanks in advance.

 

[Tophattomato]

Very nice mod, but I seem to be having a bit of a glitch. I've put a cyclotron and quite a few experiments into LKO and when I right click the cyclotron the menu says "Status:Locked". My station has the Science Bay, the Cyclotron, and quite a few of the small experiments. Thanks ahead of time.

[tomf]

On 2/28/2017 at 8:50 PM, Udeis said:

Great mod!  Quick question:  is there any way to Station Science and MKS from Umbra Space Industries (Found here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154587-122-modular-kolonization-system-mks/&page=75#comment-2971127) to play a bit more nicely together?  The problem is that MKS adds other types of scientists into the game (biologists and geologists for instance) that can't do research on the science lab parts from this mod.  It seems to me that a biologist should be able to work in an orbital Zoology lab... Thanks in advance.

 

Good idea, I'll definitely take a look and see if this is possible.

[Apollo13]

The "Perform Experiment" contracts pay WAY TOO MUCH.  Previously, experiments around Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus, paid a few hundred thousand.  Now, they pay in the millions.  Even the Advance is outrageous.  Before accepting a contract, I save the game, edit the .SFS file to decrease those values by 90%, then load the SFS file.  All other SSC contracts do not suffer this anomaly.

This was not a problem a few iterations ago.   Note: I just returned to KSP after about six months absence.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Apollo13

[hab136]

On 3/9/2017 at 1:56 PM, Apollo13 said:

The "Perform Experiment" contracts pay WAY TOO MUCH.  Previously, experiments around Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus, paid a few hundred thousand.  Now, they pay in the millions.  Even the Advance is outrageous.  Before accepting a contract, I save the game, edit the .SFS file to decrease those values by 90%, then load the SFS file.  All other SSC contracts do not suffer this anomaly.

This was not a problem a few iterations ago.   Note: I just returned to KSP after about six months absence.

The first experiment should pay a million or two.  This is to help you pay for the equipment to put it up there.  Subsequent experiments in the same place ("high above The Mun", "in space low around Minmus", etc) should pay less.

[Apollo13]

On 3/14/2017 at 7:36 AM, hab136 said:

The first experiment should pay a million or two.  This is to help you pay for the equipment to put it up there.  Subsequent experiments in the same place ("high above The Mun", "in space low around Minmus", etc) should pay less.

They don't pay less.  For instance, I just now modified an experiment that paid a 984,374 advance and 3,484,684 completion.  This was NOT the first time for this or any other experiment.  I manually decreased each of those numbers by 90% before accepting the contract.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Apollo13

[tomf]

1 hour ago, Apollo13 said:

They don't pay less.  For instance, I just now modified an experiment that paid a 984,374 advance and 3,484,684 completion.  This was NOT the first time for this or any other experiment.  I manually decreased each of those numbers by 90% before accepting the contract.

Any contract to do an experiment that has already been done for a given body (irrespective of situation or biome) will always be significantly less (10-20x) than a contract to do the same experiment for the first time.

Making the first experiment of any kind more rewarding than subsequent ones is a bit more tricky. What if your first experiment is plant growth, requiring only the lab to complete, while the second is retrograde quarks, requiring the launch of a pair of cyclotrons. In terms of mass launched and complexity of launcher and mission plan the second experiment is a lot harder to run than the first so it wouldn't make sense for it's reward to be substantially reduced.

Given the fairly random balancing of contracts I'm not planning to make any changes to the current weightings. If you think they are too generous you can edit the config file. I might have a look at whether they can be changed with a module manager patch for convenience though.

[PhantomC3PO]

@tomf, just a quick question, are you aware of any conflicts between this mod and another that would prevent the contracts from appearing? I have never had any of them offered, even though I have now reached and unlocked the parts in the Tech Tree. I have contracts configurator installed with the bases and station pack, which disables the stock station contracts. Do these need to be enabled to get these contracts?

Apologies for what is probably a very noobish question.

[tomf]

1 minute ago, PhantomC3PO said:

@tomf, just a quick question, are you aware of any conflicts between this mod and another that would prevent the contracts from appearing? I have never had any of them offered, even though I have now reached and unlocked the parts in the Tech Tree. I have contracts configurator installed with the bases and station pack, which disables the stock station contracts. Do these need to be enabled to get these contracts?

Apologies for what is probably a very noobish question.

Have you paid the one off cost to allow you to use the part in the VAB? I think that is the usual reason. It should be unaffected by the bases and stations CC pack, I use it myself. I don't know why they have to be purchased first, I should probably work it out and fix it.

[PhantomC3PO]

Just now, tomf said:

Have you paid the one off cost to allow you to use the part in the VAB? I think that is the usual reason. It should be unaffected by the bases and stations CC pack, I use it myself. I don't know why they have to be purchased first, I should probably work it out and fix it.

Ummm, no. Is that separate to paying to unlock the parts in the tech tree (which I don't have turned on)? I'll have a look when I get home from work. Thanks for the quick reply @tomf 

I thought it was probably a noobish thing, now I feel silly for asking the question.

[tomf]

If you don't pay to purchase parts then it might be interesting, try building, clicking launch and then recovering from the pad a rocket that has the parts on as a work around.

It is deliberate in the code for station science but I think it is a bug that you have to pay the initial purchase price before you get missions. I don't pay to unlock a part that I'm not using, and I'm not going to do station science experiments unless I have a contract to do so.