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REQUEST for new model for Netherdyne Mass Driver Mod


Northstar1989

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I am looking for somebody willing to generate me a NEW, LONGER functional hollow ring part model (as in a .Mu file and associated textures) for my Netherdyne Mass Driver Mod!

 

Before anyone says hollow ring parts are impossible, take a look at the mod, and know that I am currently using hollow ring models, and they work.  I am just looking for somebody to generate me a part model that is LONGER that I can replace the current model with.  Note that the model NEEDS TO BE RE-SCALEABLE as the latest version of the mod includes re-scaled parts from 0.625 meters all the way up to 5 meters, each using an identical copy of the same base model- but with a different "rescaleFactor =" value in its part config.

I am looking for somebody to generate me three models- one with 4-5 times the length of the current 2.5 meter internal diameter model (that is, it can comfortably fit a 2.5 meter part within its internal cavity- the exact internal diameter is a bit over 2.8 meters I think), one with 7-8 times the length, and a third with 11-12 times the length.  All must have AT LEAST the same usable internal dimensions as the current model- that is one can fit a part of the same width (although slightly larger internal diameter than the current model is acceptable).

I aim to test each model and see what the practical limits are for how long/powerful of a tube part I can use for the mass drivers, and still have the networking function work correctly (I know already at least a 2-fold increase in length will cause absolutely no issues, from the 5 meter part being 2x as long as the 2.5 meter version).  If they ALL work correctly, I will use one of the two longer models and abandon the other two.

Repeating, simple geometries and textures for the model are not only accepted, but suggested.  Take a look at the current part model, and know that I find it unnecessarily complex.  A simple, thick hollow tube with a texture made to look like Aluminum (*NOT* Copper coils, which is what the current mod erroneously shows- even though the only existing mass driver designs for StarTeam use Aluminum coils, possibly due to their high mass:strength ratio and the ability to readily obtain large amounts of Aluminum on the Moon...) covering the entire interior would be the preferred basic model design...

 

Please ONLY respond if you are able to provide such a part.  This is NOT a thread for discussing what you think of the mod, saying such part models are impossible (they're not, the mod currently uses a model with ring-shaped colliders and it works fine), etc.  Please ONLY respond in regards to offering to make such a model, pointing me in the direction of somebody you know who can do so for me, etc.

 

Regards,

Northstar

 

Edited by Northstar1989
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  On 2/25/2017 at 6:18 PM, Northstar1989 said:

Please ONLY respond if you are able to provide such a part.

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I am able, but not going to.

There is a quick modelling tutorial in my signature - you could have this part in the next 2 hours if you really sit down and work.

You are happy with simple models and texture, so even as your first 3D model ever it should be quite easy.

Edited by Beale
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  On 2/25/2017 at 7:47 PM, Beale said:

I am able, but not going to.

There is a quick modelling tutorial in my signature - you could have this part in the next 2 hours if you really sit down and work.

You are happy with simple models and texture, so even as your first 3D model ever it should be quite easy.

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This response is unwanted and less-than-helpful.  I am happy with simple geometries and textures, but that doesn't mean it should be completely without any finesse whatsoever.  My artistic skills are not *nearly* up to the task ( I'm the kind of person who can barely draw stick-figures)- which is why I'm soliciting models made by others...

Please refrain from replying in this thread (if you really must respond, send a PM) if you are not going to offer a model or directly refer me to somebody who can- this thread needs to be kept short and focused, and should not be taken further off-topic.

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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  On 2/25/2017 at 8:22 PM, Northstar1989 said:

This response is unwanted and less-than-helpful.  I am happy with simple geometries and textures, but that doesn't mean it should be completely without any finesse whatsoever.  My artistic skills are not *nearly* up to the task ( I'm the kind of person who can barely draw stick-figures)- which is why I'm soliciting models made by others...

 

Regards,

Northstar

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Lol, you do not need artisitc skills, it is only placing shapes where you want them - take your exisitng model and copy that.
Here, it only takes less than a minute to get a basic shape - why will you not get your hands dirty? It's fun!

The stick man analogy is pretty bad - this is a very different process that can't be screwed up if you follow instructions.
k7aBSxF.png

8lAvbtt.png

 

Edited by Beale
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So, if you model several different length models, you end up with that many separate parts...
However, if mesh switching is used, you could probably just have ONE part, configurable in the editor to the length/perfomance parameters you want to use...
The only thing is, it would then require a mod dependency...
There are several plugins out there capable of this...
Is this something you would consider? (having a mod dependency)

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  On 2/25/2017 at 8:54 PM, Stone Blue said:

So, if you model several different length models, you end up with that many separate parts...
However, if mesh switching is used, you could probably just have ONE part, configurable in the editor to the length/perfomance parameters you want to use...
The only thing is, it would then require a mod dependency...
There are several plugins out there capable of this...
Is this something you would consider? (having a mod dependency)

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I only intend to use one length of model in the end- but I want to test out a couple different lengths.  There is no need to have the ability to adjust individual part length when the Mass Drivers are built to fire sequentially as a payload passes through a stack of them, allowing control over tube length by adjusting the number of parts- and for a realistic physics simulation and correct part performance the stack needs to be divided into multiple parts, not one single super-long part (so the extreme ends of the stack are not accelerating payloads currently in the middle, for instance).

However I am finding that the current length is too small as players (including myself) are often forced to stack 16-34 of the things to achieve the desired length, and are inhibited by part-count from building even longer tubes than that.  A 8x length part would easily allow players to build tubes as long as 80 of the current parts with just 10 parts, for instance...

A longer part is inherently a tradeoff of physics-realism for lower part-count.  But if the parts are longer but still of limited length, players will (hopefully) simply build longer tubes and use just as many parts.

 

Regards,

Northstar

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  On 2/26/2017 at 1:36 PM, DStaal said:

As another non-modler, but reading the above: As an interim solution, you could try welding several of the current rings together, making one longer part.  That would give you the ability to play with lengths at the very least.

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I considered that possibility, but that would lead to excessively-complex models.  The current model is far more intricate than it needs to be, on a texture/collider basis, in addition to not looking anything like it should (a Mass Driver should be a sealed tube- the current model has gaps between the parts...  It also uses copper coils instead of aluminum ones, and the coils are oriented perpendicular to the central cavity in discrete bundles instead of wrapping around the circumference in a continuous layer like they should...)

I'm looking for a model that uses fewer vertices (the physical triangles that make up a model's colliders) and angles and instead forms more of a continuous tube...  Welding the models, unlike extending them, doesn't accomplish that (if only it were so simple as just using the technique Beale showed above!  The main problem is I need to texture the model, and THAT I don't have the artistic talent to come up with textures for, or apply them in a pleasing pattern...)

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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  • 2 weeks later...
  On 2/26/2017 at 11:19 PM, rspeed said:

This is what I've been working on.

All of the components are modular in Blender, so I can make smaller or larger versions by changing the number of magnets.

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That model actually looks more complex than the current one.  Remember, KISS is the rule here.  Also, I said LONGER, not larger (diameter is not the issue here- length is).  Finally, mind if I ask what the reason is for the copper "boxes" around the edges when I am requesting a single coil?

As I've said before, a StarTram-inspired mass driver would be composed of a single giant tube of *Aluminum* wire, not boxes interspersed around the edges of Copper wiring.

While I'm not quite sure of the reason for use of Aluminum instead of Copper, this is the materials choice for the real-life StarTram proposal: so any model should have SILVER-GREY wires instead of brown ones...  The use of a continuous coil I can explain, on the other hand- having distinct "boxes" around the edges creates undesirable behaviors if the payload deviates slightly from the center of the tube- thus a continuous coil is safer and more stable in addition to being more efficient with materials...

All that is needed is a hollow tube with visible Aluminum coil textures on the inside, and some outside textures to make directionality clear (this is the part that really requires artistic talent).  All the other details can be abstracted away by being presumed to be covered by the protective shell/structural elements around the exterior of the tube...

Beale had the right basic idea for the shapr before, albeit the model still was more geometrically complex than necessary with its  interspersed long rectangles instead of just a single smooth ring shape.  I just need something like that with textures- textures are the part I really can't do on my own...

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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  On 3/7/2017 at 11:20 PM, Northstar1989 said:

That model actually looks more complex than the current one.  Remember, KISS is the rule here.

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Appears, yes. But the poly count is actually much, much lower – less than 25% the original.

  On 3/7/2017 at 11:20 PM, Northstar1989 said:

Also, I said LONGER, not larger (diameter is not the issue here- length is).

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This is just what I had already been working on. It wasn't created as a response to your request, I was just trying to show what I have been doing. Essentially, I'm trying to make a model that's more "Kerbal" than the original.

As for diameter, it's difficult to tell from the image but it's actually is quite a bit narrower than the original, but with approximately the same center diameter.

  On 3/7/2017 at 11:20 PM, Northstar1989 said:

The use of a continuous coil I can explain, on the other hand- having distinct "boxes" around the edges creates undesirable behaviors if the payload deviates slightly from the center of the tube- thus a continuous coil is safer and more stable in addition to being more efficient with materials...

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It's quite the opposite. The strength of a magnetic field grows as you get closer to the surface of the coil, not its center. A single, large coil that the payload passes through would have the same instability issues as any other design. The advantage of using multiple independent coils is that they can be actively adjusted to counteract deviations from the intended course.

From what I can tell, in the StarTram proposal the payload is mounted to a maglev sled. So there wouldn't be any rings whatsoever – all of the magnets would be in the track below the tube.

Scratch that, I was looking at the second-generation design. Though the point remains – the proposal is for a payload which is guided, not simply floating through the center of the track.

Edited by rspeed
Noticed my mistake
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  On 3/8/2017 at 1:03 PM, rspeed said:

Appears, yes. But the poly count is actually much, much lower – less than 25% the original.

This is just what I had already been working on. It wasn't created as a response to your request, I was just trying to show what I have been doing. Essentially, I'm trying to make a model that's more "Kerbal" than the original.

As for diameter, it's difficult to tell from the image but it's actually is quite a bit narrower than the original, but with approximately the same center diameter.

It's quite the opposite. The strength of a magnetic field grows as you get closer to the surface of the coil, not its center. A single, large coil that the payload passes through would have the same instability issues as any other design. The advantage of using multiple independent coils is that they can be actively adjusted to counteract deviations from the intended course.

From what I can tell, in the StarTram proposal the payload is mounted to a maglev sled. So there wouldn't be any rings whatsoever – all of the magnets would be in the track below the tube.

Scratch that, I was looking at the second-generation design. Though the point remains – the proposal is for a payload which is guided, not simply floating through the center of the track.

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Makes sense.  What I meant by "undesirable effects" by the way is related to precisely that- the magnetic forces grow as you get closer to the surface of a coil.  In a system with four current coils at right angles, however, you get highly undesirable effects if the payload drifts DIAGONALLY towards a corner with no coil.

On the other hand, in a continuous tube, there is no direction the payload can drift off-center in where the magnetic field strength does not change uniformly.  The actual job of centering the payload, on the other hand, is accomplished by a small iron electromagnet in the payload itself in the StarTram design (if I had the coding expertise and I didn't think players would find it a huge pain in the ass, I would add inline parts to the Mass Driver mod that go on the payload itself and are required for the Mass Driver to work on a payload...).  I am unsure how it works exactly, but needless to say it works with a continuous-coil mass driver model and has nothing to do with having four distinct current coils around the edge of the mass driver...

Edited by Northstar1989
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  On 3/8/2017 at 10:20 PM, dboi88 said:

Sorry, my computer broke down for a minute there.

Any interest in these?

9RMU7cL.png

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srzR7m1.png

lqqKf8Q.png

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That's more-or-less what I'm looking for, and the visuals look reasonable.

How's the poly-count?  How are the colliders?  Could you maybe work with rspeed (who seems to really know what he's doing) to try and bring down the poly-count as low as possible, and make sure the colliders are right?

Also,  what are the internal dimensions?  Could you download the model currently in use by the Mass Driver mod and compare the internal dimensions to make sure any rocket that could fit through the 2.5 meter sized mass driver ring of the old model (the one without a rescaleFactor less or greater than 1) will still be able to fit through your ring, for backwards-compatibility reasons?  To be on the safe side, maybe even add 1 or 2% to the internal dimensions in case an error was made in measurement or the colliders are slightly different...

Finally, would it be possible to upload the model in .mu format for me to test integrating into the next update of the mod?  Ideally, an upload now so I can get started testing and eventually provide feedback, and an upload when you and rspeed have come up with a finsl version you're both happy with as a candidate for inclusion into the mod...

 

Regards,

Northstar

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  On 3/10/2017 at 5:50 AM, Northstar1989 said:

That's more-or-less what I'm looking for, and the visuals look reasonable.

How's the poly-count?  How are the colliders?  Could you maybe work with rspeed (who seems to really know what he's doing) to try and bring down the poly-count as low as possible, and make sure the colliders are right?

Also,  what are the internal dimensions?  Could you download the model currently in use by the Mass Driver mod and compare the internal dimensions to make sure any rocket that could fit through the 2.5 meter sized mass driver ring of the old model (the one without a rescaleFactor less or greater than 1) will still be able to fit through your ring, for backwards-compatibility reasons?  To be on the safe side, maybe even add 1 or 2% to the internal dimensions in case an error was made in measurement or the colliders are slightly different...

Finally, would it be possible to upload the model in .mu format for me to test integrating into the next update of the mod?  Ideally, an upload now so I can get started testing and eventually provide feedback, and an upload when you and rspeed have come up with a finsl version you're both happy with as a candidate for inclusion into the mod...

 

Regards,

Northstar

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It's a textured cylinder it couldn't get any lower of a polycount. I copied the colliders from the current model. They have the same internal diameter of the current model. I'll send you the .mu's for you to play with later. The sizes are the same length, 5x 8x and 12x the length of the original.

I threw this together in a hour or so to match your specifications. If you pick a size I'll refine the texture for that size.

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I just checked the numbers on my way out. 900 tris for the 12x vs 4600tris in the original model. 

btw it's not hollow parts that cause issues it's hollow colliders. So I've gone with the same wedge design for the colliders as the original which as far as I know is the the only solution. I'll upload the models when I get back from work.

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Oh something else, have you thought about maybe including both versions of the model in the mod? The cylinders I've made as an atmospheric version and the beautiful model @rspeed has been working on as a none atmospheric version?

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  • 4 weeks later...
  On 3/10/2017 at 8:21 AM, dboi88 said:

Oh something else, have you thought about maybe including both versions of the model in the mod? The cylinders I've made as an atmospheric version and the beautiful model @rspeed has been working on as a none atmospheric version?

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Well I won't say I won't consider it, but rspeed still hasn't indicated he's done with his model yet, and I'm trying to avoid mode bloat by sticking with as few models as possible...

Anyways I apologize for the delay- I'll be testing out a new update of the mod with your model soon-ish.  I haven't downloaded it for testing yet, though- so if you have any further changes you want to make first, now is the best time to do so...

 

Regards,

Northstar

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  • 2 years later...
  On 4/7/2017 at 10:56 AM, dboi88 said:

I'll be happy to work on a proper texture but will wait for you to confirm which model size you want to move forwards with 

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If you're still interested in this, the way the mod works is by having only a single model, and then using rescaling for the smaller/larger parts.  This makes for a smaller mod file, and hopefully less RAM usage from playing with the mod active.

A part with 2.5 meter INTERNAL diameter would be the most appropriate base size.  Eventually, the goal was to have re-scale configs included with the mod for 0.625, 1.5, 3.75, and 5 meter parts.  Maybe, with the increasing popularity of 7.5 meter mods, one of those as well now...

I haven't been able to keep up with mod maintenance anyways, though, so I'm looking to hand the mod off.  I'm asking @FreeThinker if he would be interested in taking over the mod, but you're free to jump in yourself if you think you have the abilities to recompile and try to occasionally bugfix the mod.

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  On 4/26/2019 at 7:48 AM, Northstar1989 said:

If you're still interested in this, the way the mod works is by having only a single model, and then using rescaling for the smaller/larger parts.  This makes for a smaller mod file, and hopefully less RAM usage from playing with the mod active.

A part with 2.5 meter INTERNAL diameter would be the most appropriate base size.  Eventually, the goal was to have re-scale configs included with the mod for 0.625, 1.5, 3.75, and 5 meter parts.  Maybe, with the increasing popularity of 7.5 meter mods, one of those as well now...

I haven't been able to keep up with mod maintenance anyways, though, so I'm looking to hand the mod off.  I'm asking @FreeThinker if he would be interested in taking over the mod, but you're free to jump in yourself if you think you have the abilities to recompile and try to occasionally bugfix the mod.

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Maybe he was in 2017...

Necroing your own thread for a mod you are trying to pass to someone else...That's priceless.  It would probably be better to see if someone takes over mod maintenance first.  That person may have the modeling skills to update the parts should they deem it necessary.

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