KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

[jinks]

Notice I'm flying at more than 3 times the speed of sound using 2 radial attached regular air scoops without blowing up the engines!

Interesting, now I'm thoroughly confused. This seems to contradict what the code says. Does altitude play a role? My B9 sabre overheats at roughly 20km up and 1200-1500 m/s with a similar configuration, but I'm generally not a plane person so this might be for entirely different reasons. (Does FAR affect these things? Thinner air? Faster terminal velocity?)

Edit: I replicated your "plane" configuration (used a MK2 Particle Bed reactor), and it reliably overheats at roughly 1350m/s. What am I doing wrong?

Edited March 8, 2015 by jinks

[FreeThinker]

Interesting, now I'm thoroughly confused. This seems to contradict what the code says. Does altitude play a role? My B9 sabre overheats at roughly 20km up and 1200-1500 m/s with a similar configuration, but I'm generally not a plane person so this might be for entirely different reasons. (Does FAR affect these things? Thinner air? Faster terminal velocity?)

Edit: I replicated your "plane" configuration (used a MK2 Particle Bed reactor), and it reliably overheats at roughly 1350m/s. What am I doing wrong?

Nothing, it's a new feature in 0.7.16, which I just uploaded to KerbalStuff it allows you to connect an aircooler to either one stacked AirIntacke or 2 radial intakes.

The new patch also includes an integrated version of RoverDudes Alcubierre Warp Drive, which will fit with the GigaWatt output of KSPI Extended. Instead of Xenon gas, it will require LqdHelium, and continuous large amount of GigaWatts, which will increase as you create more Exotic Matter. Note it will not be active, when Nerar Future Electrics is installed, in that case the original version is available.

Edited March 8, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Drew Kerman]

That a nasty problem, I had it in the past too after I hand deleted some part models/texture/interior. Perhapas you did the same, if not, I suggest remove mods one by one until you have found the problem.

Oh, I'm an idiot. I use batch scripts to load things I need for a play session and forgot I moved all my spaces to a diff location and didn't update the scripts. Durrrrr

Nothing, it's a new feature in 0.7.16

Does the changelog need to be updated in the OP or is 0.7.6 the same as 0.7.16?

[FreeThinker]

Does the changelog need to be updated in the OP or is 0.7.6 the same as 0.7.16?

Good point, I updated it

[FreeThinker]

I improved a little further on the air intake. the precooler does not have to be connected directly to the cooler anymore, one part in between is allowed, it is also mandatory for any radial connected airintakes

Now the following plane is possible

notice I'm using 2 air cooler, one for the nose cone, and 1 for the 2 radial intakes in the middle

Edited March 8, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

The new patch also includes an integrated version of RoverDudes Alcubierre Warp Drive, which will fit with the GigaWatt output of KSPI Extended. Instead of Xenon gas, it will require LqdHelium, and continuous large amount of GigaWatts, which will increase as you create more Exotic Matter. Note it will not be active, when Nerar Future Electrics is installed, in that case the original version is available.

Wait, what have you done here? You replaced the KSP-Interstellar Alcubierre Drive with a part from a different mod (that presumably works differently...)

That's kind of a big deal. What's the reasoning behind that? The Alcubierre Drive is kind of the part the entire KSP-Interstellar mod was originally built around, and replacing it with a different version from a different mod (that doesn't work the same way as the original???) isn't exactly something that should be done lightly...

EDIT: Also, the XenonGas isn't used as a coolant in RoverDude's version of the Alcubierre Drive. It's used for "maneuvering thrusters"- which kind of doesn't make sense as an Alcubierre Drive wouldn't require built-in maneuvering thrusters to operate... I've been examining the video he posted of his warp drive in action- and it also seems to only generating a warp bubble of a very limited diameter around the part itself- which may actually be more realistic (energy requirements increase with larger warp bubbles) but greatly limits the size of ships you can move with a warp drive part...

EDIT #2: There may also be issues with the degree of realism in how the Alcubierre Drive implemented by RoverDude is affected by physical laws, in that the version found in prior versions of KSP-Interstellar is more realistic. For instance, you would expect the Alcubierre Drive to translate your ship relative to the Solar System without need for maneuvering thrusters.

I don't know how to describe the differences better than this: with a KSP-I Alcubiere Drive (prior to this version of KSP-I Extended) activating the drive while pointing prograde in close circular orbit of the Sun would quickly fling you out to the edge of the solar system (moving you in a straight line). In RoverDude's version, nothing would happen if you didn't have the maneuvering thrusters accelerating you in the direction your ship is pointing- the ship would remain in a circular orbit despite the contraction of space-time ahead of it which should (in theory) translate you in a straight line without any source of acceleration being necessary...

OK, so the observed result of the two is exactly the same, so long as you have functional maneuvering thrusters (and a source of XenonGas with RoverDude's version, or Helium with the way you adapted it). But the difference is there is no requirement for the maneuvering thrusters in real life, or in the version previously found in KSP-Interstellar... Nor is there need for the Liquid Helium- unless you're using it to dissipate WasteHeat, which radiators should be perfectly capable of doing without requiring an expensive resource that quickly boils off... (thus limiting the longevity/endurance of warp-ships unrealistically)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 8, 2015 by Northstar1989

[FreeThinker]

I'm glad you asked

Well the were many things wrong with the original KSPI warp engines which made it unrealistic/unbalanced.

1. Maintaining Exotic Matter (which is essential the opposite of a black hole matter. Does not cost any power to maintain (in some kind of field). This means you could technically charge the reactor with a tiny reactor if you waited long enough. THis made high investment in Large Fusion reactors of small scale anti matter reactor meaningless..
   
2. Once at warp, there was no cost to maintain it. It wouldn't matter if you jumped half a parsec of to another solar system, the cost is the same, which made distance meaningless.
   
3. You could charge exotic matter during flight and it would not effect existing flight.
   
4. Even if you lose all power, the exotic matter can be stored forever.
   

in KSPI NF I addressed the above problems the following way:

Warpdrive

The new Alcubierre warpdrive requires your reactors to overcome a power threshold and the distance you can travel is determined by the initial strength of the warpfield (determined by warp speed) and your ability to maintain it (with electric power). This effectively makes it impossible to power the warpengine using only nuclear power, you going to need at least a fusion power to get into warp. Charging the warpengine works as it previously did but instead of losing all warp power at launch, you lose half (and any overcharge). The first half is used start warp travel, the second half represent the warp field which you need to maintain to remain at warp speed. The more power you can use to maintain the warp field, the longer distance you can travel. Once you warp field (represented by Exotic matter) runs out, it collapses and you return to normal space. If you stop you electrical generators or stop feeding the warp engines, the warp field will start to collapse on it's own, but it can take considerable time depending on the warp field strength (which depend on the warp speed). If you you wish to drop out of warp sooner, you can press the "Deactivate Warp Drive" to reverse to polity of your warpfield generator and help the warp field to collapse much fast. This means you can no longer instantly drop out of warp at will (as you did in Interstellar) and that your warp engines start uncharged after dropping out of warp.

This mod, which was created out of my own frustration with the lack of incompatibility between Interstellar and Near future, is my first (public) Mod for KSP. My currently version already includes all above mentioned features, but not everything is balanced and tested yet. However if your interested in a sneak peek, you can download the current version of the mod (including source code ) from GitHub. For full functionality you need to download Near Future separately. The Current version is a continuation of Boris 0.90 Interstellar, and therefor contains all fixes (and quirks)

The New Warpdrive Also addresses the problems the following way

1. Maintaining the exotic matter, now cost a large amount of power which grows linear by a factor of 10 from minimum to maximum when filled. The minimum Power requirement scales linear with radial size, which means the smaller the bubble, the more difficult it is to charge it.
   
2. During warp, the exotic matter is used like a propellant and which make distance meaningful.
   
3. You can extend the duration of warp by actively charging your maintained exotic matter buffer.
   
4. If you cut power to the containment field, the exotic matter will dissipate rapidly and be lost
   

As a consequence, high power reactors like Antimatter reactor become meaningful. You can achieve warp either small scale using antimatter or large scale using several huge fusion reactors in a compact area.

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Edit: Besides that helium is used for technical reasons (it has some mass) the the Helium is meant as a super cooling agent, to turn the warp coil into a super conductor, which allows you you generate a GigaJoule strong magnetic field which we be needed for the particle accelerator to generate exotic particles and to contain it.

From my understanding, the exotic matter acts a negative mass, which allow you to fold space in front of you and extract behind you. The exotic matter is not something you going to put in any container, you only hope is to maintain it in some very strong magnetic field.

Edited March 8, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

I'm glad you asked

Well the were many things wrong with the original KSPI warp engines which made it unrealistic.

1. Maintaining Exotic Matter (which is essential the opposite of a black hole matter. Does not cost any power to maintain (in some kind of field). This means you could technically charge the reactor with a tiny reactor if you waited long enough.
   
2. Once at warp, there was no cost to maintain it, which made distance meaningless
   
3. You could charge exotic matter during flight and it would not effect existing flight.
   
4. Even if you lose all power, the exotic matter can be stored forever.
   

in KSPI NF I addressed the above problems the following way:

The New Warpdrive Also addresses the problems the following way

1. Maintaining the exotic matter, now cost a large amount of power which grows linear by a factor of 10 from minimum to maximum when filled. The minimum Power requirement scales linear with radial size, which means the smaller the bubble, the more difficult it is to charge it.
   
2. During warp, the exotic matter is used like a propellant and which make distance meaningful
   
3. You can extend the duration of warp by actively charging your maintained exotic matter buffer.
   
4. If you cut power to the containment field, the exotic matter will dissipate rapidly and be lost
   

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Note the Helium is meant as a super cooling agent, to turn the warp cool into a super conductor, which allows you you generate a GigaJoule strong magnetic field which we be needed to contain the exotic matter.

Thanks for the quick reply.

I think you're under some misconceptions of the inherent stability of Exotic Matter.

Exotic Matter is not the "opposite of black hole matter" as you say. It's matter with negative mass, but the magnitude of that negative mass isn't necessarily any greater than that of a comparable amount of normal matter...

We're dealing with a few kg of negative mass here, not the kinds of magnitudes of gravitational forces of a black hole. Does a few kg of normal mass exert a large (or even noticeable) gravitational influence? It does not. Neither does a few kg of negative mass. Exotic Matter might push objects away from it, rather than pull them closer- but just a few kg or tons of it is going to do so at a magnitude of force that is basically insignificant.

So, you could still contain it inside an ordinary tank- in fact it would naturally separate itself from the walls of the container in zero gravity without requiring any outside powerful (and energy-hungry) magnetic field to contain it. And even if Exotic Matter *did* come in contact with normal matter directly, it's not going to interact with it explosively like antimatter. In fact, Exotic Matter, while quite strange and unusual, in small quantities (the kind we're talking about here for an Alcubierre Drive- it's not like we're building a star or planet out of it) is perfectly harmless...

By the way, regarding black holes:

Even if you could collapse just a few metric tons of normal matter to infinite density (creating a sort of miniature black hole) the magnitude of gravitational attraction exerted by that mass on other objects would remain unchanged at the same distance from the center of mass (i.e. its gravity would be insignificant). What makes a black hole truly dangerous isn't the magnitude of its gravitational force (which is the same as the mass that collapsed when creating it), it is how close you can get to that center of mass. You can head directly into the center of a black hole- something you can't do with a comparably massive star or nebula without starting to pass through its boundaries well before you reach the light-capturing gravitational forces present near the center of a black hole... I.e. it's the density of a black hole that is dangerous, not the total magnitude of mass (although the infinite density does lead to it eventually acquiring a very large mass, leading to the supermassive black holes that are truly scary...)

Regards,

Northstar

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I think I can sum it up this way:

(1) Exotic Matter doesn't require large amounts of energy to maintain- this isn't realistic (to theory). In fact, an unpowered storage container should be able to store it just as effectively as one with magnetic containment (and there's no reason to keep it separate from normal matter...)

(2) Different physicists have different opinions about an Alcubierre Drive. Many think it's impossible. Of those who think it is possible, some think the warp bubble wouldn't require additional Exotic Matter to maintain, some think it would. Given that no Alcubierre Drive has ever been built, either implementation in KSP is equally valid...

(3) If there is no requirement for additional Exotic Matter during flight, there is no reason to think you couldn't generate more while in warp-flight...

(4) Even if you lose all power, Exotic Matter can, in fact, be stored forever- or at least equally long with or without power (subject to inherent nuclear instability that we don't yet know about- in which case storing it inside a magnetic field isn't going to do anything to stop it from decaying either...)

Since these were basically your reasons for abandoning the warp drive part KSP-Interstellar has been using since the beginning, I hope you realize there's no reason to switch to RoverDude's version (which is actually less realistic), and will switch the part back to the original promptly. Changing too many aspects of the base mod is going to make the Extension Config unpalatable to many player- especially if one of the changes runs contrary to both fun and realism, by making doing something (like warp-travel) even harder than it realistically should be (if an Alcubierre Drive can even be built in the first place).

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 8, 2015 by Northstar1989

[FreeThinker]

Right now, I have implemented the Warpdrive by a combination of Roverdude Warp Bubble drive and a modified Crystat Module. The Cryostat module requires a continues power supply which grows as the resource it contains (exotic matter grows). Once you disengage power, the resource will effectively boil-off/evaporate into thin air.

RoverDude Buble Warp engine has several advantages from the previous warpengine.

- Instead of mass, dimension matter. This means some inginuety in the construction of your warpship will be rewarding

- Instead of being on a one way route, you can actually make course correction, heck you can even make loops (which is fun)

- Instead of some boring lines behind your ship, the Warp bubble looks cool

- It contains safety features, which for instance prevent you from flying into the sun or planet.

- Improved causality. If you run out of exotic-matter/helium before you drop out of warp, the bubble will violently collapse, which depending on your speed can rip you ship apart

The are still some things that I don't like, which I plan to solve latter but for the moment the new warp engine is a big improvement

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I have often heard that even if warp travel is possible, the power requirement would be extreme. From a balance perspective, nothing should be for free. The more extraordinary an ability is, the harder the effort should be to achive. With the original warp engines, warp travel was too easy, there was no afford, no achievement.

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EDIT: regarding your assumption to store negative mass in a regalar vat:

Negative matter, more commonly called “exotic matterâ€Â, has negative energy. If you were to bring it into contact with ordinary matter you would see, not an awesome explosion, but an underwhelming and abrupt nothing. When exotic matter in brought together with ordinary matter, the positive energy of the matter and the negative energy of the exotic matter cancel out entirely, leaving nothing at all behind.

So basically the stuff could rip though a regular vat without anything left. If you don't contain it, it will disappear when comes into contact with ordinary matter, which is exactly how I imagined it. Since you want some significant amount of the exotic matter to build up, you going to keep it compressed, which without the help of a solid wall, you need to achieve with strong magnetic fields, which will require extreme amount of power and cooling This made me realize that I forgot the cooling of the superconducter, will generate large amounts of waste heat.

There is also an intresting side effect when creating exotic matter:

There are some subtle physical laws that imply that the creation of negative energy, in the form of exotic matter or not, has limitations called “quantum interest“. Anytime a bit of negative energy is generated (and the methods involved create, like, none), a larger, overwhelming pulse of positive energy must be created almost immediately.

so basically, whenever you actually produce exotic matter, you also produce positively charge matter, need to keep it separate it from the negative matter, otherwise, it will simply vanish into nothingness. Fortunately the suffer doesn't annihilate when it comes into contact, otherwise you would create the same effect as an antimatter bomb when you dropped the containment field.

Edited March 8, 2015 by FreeThinker

[smart013]

Sorry to say that, but as much as i like the original intention to get KSPI to work in .90, these changes transform this endeavor now into a completely new fork, aka. a completely different mod. Ok, its called "Extended" but it might as well be called "my vision, by FreeThinker".

Again.

Why on earth isnt it possible for the various nice people that started up to help the KSPI Community while FractalUK is absent with running versions of HIS mod without starting to incorporate more and more own changes that steer away from the original? Is it a ego thing?

So, now we have

- KSP Interstellar

- KSP Interstellar Lite

- KSP Interstellar Extended

Of course only for the time till the next Shism after FractalUK comes back, reverts most of these changes, and goes away for some time. Place your bet for the name of the next 3-4 coming KSPI Forks.

PS: On a sidenote - really as much as i adore the work of roverdude, i would really like to see mods that arent included in his great scheme of things.

PPS: Sorry, maybe i sound bitter about this, and after all noone cares about my opinion, but i really like everyone included in this whole Interstellar thing, and i really dont like and understand these tendencies to impose own agendas after some time instead of simply updating it. Just 2c.

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Since these were basically your reasons for abandoning the warp drive part KSP-Interstellar has been using since the beginning, I hope you realize there's no reason to switch to RoverDude's version (which is actually less realistic), and will switch the part back to the original promptly. Changing too many aspects of the base mod is going to make the Extension Config unpalatable to many player- especially if one of the changes runs contrary to both fun and realism, by making doing something (like warp-travel) even harder than it realistically should be (if an Alcubierre Drive can even be built in the first place).

Cannot stress this enough. But as the inevitable coming discussions about the Warpdrive "realism" will possibly show it maybe already too late. In a way there is a really high possibility for this Shism between KSPI and Extended to become really toxic as we experienced already with KSPI Lite. And again we (ok, say people like myself) have to wait till FractalUK to come back.. *sigh*

[FreeThinker]

Why on earth isnt it possible for the various nice people that started up to help the KSPI Community while FractalUK is absent with running versions of HIS mod without starting to incorporate more and more own changes that steer away from the original? Is it a ego thing?

Well it's inevitable. The problem with KSP Interstellar is that it's not very clear what it is. The Hearth of the system are the reactors. They produce Gigawatts, which is a magnitude 100000 more than what is produced by a regular KSP stock vessel. This creates inconsistencies, which KSPI seem to ignore.

I think the aim of Interstellar is a gradual road to the stars. It should challenging but rewarding.Interstellar provides the tools to achieve that, which I try to improve upon. Warp capability is the end of the line, after that there is just exploring. Preferably to other Solar systems. But the journey should remain challenging, otherwise it becomes a show

KSPI has to evolve, to improve. Keeping things as they are, is going backwards, and it's also boring! Where do you think my motivation comes from? Would you like to keep watch in the store, or create a more exciting store?

Edited March 8, 2015 by FreeThinker

[DuoDex]

Just a reminder to keep it civil here.

[somewhatcasual]

Sorry to say that, but as much as i like the original intention to get KSPI to work in .90, these changes transform this endeavor now into a completely new fork, aka. a completely different mod. Ok, its called "Extended" but it might as well be called "my vision, by FreeThinker".

Again.

Why on earth isnt it possible for the various nice people that started up to help the KSPI Community while FractalUK is absent with running versions of HIS mod without starting to incorporate more and more own changes that steer away from the original? Is it a ego thing?

So, now we have

- KSP Interstellar

- KSP Interstellar Lite

- KSP Interstellar Extended

Of course only for the time till the next Shism after FractalUK comes back, reverts most of these changes, and goes away for some time. Place your bet for the name of the next 3-4 coming KSPI Forks.

PS: On a sidenote - really as much as i adore the work of roverdude, i would really like to see mods that arent included in his great scheme of things.

PPS: Sorry, maybe i sound bitter about this, and after all noone cares about my opinion, but i really like everyone included in this whole Interstellar thing, and i really dont like and understand these tendencies to impose own agendas after some time instead of simply updating it. Just 2c.

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Cannot stress this enough. But as the inevitable coming discussions about the Warpdrive "realism" will possibly show it maybe already too late. In a way there is a really high possibility for this Shism between KSPI and Extended to become really toxic as we experienced already with KSPI Lite. And again we (ok, say people like myself) have to wait till FractalUK to come back.. *sigh*

I don't think you are looking at this in the right way. Try looking at it like this: FractualUk may never return for all we know, and what the full scope of his vision is, is something we may never know. Heck he might not have known his end game. That is the reality of modding. The license allows for this type of alteration and if he had a real problem with it, he wouldn't have used the license that he did. As for it being solely Freethinker's vision, he seems pretty open to feedback. Things need to evolve and change. The base game changes and evolves, why shouldn't the mods? Again this is the nature of modding to make the game more fun. The author of KSP lite also goes into long absences, and then his version broke for me, so someone needed to step up. I am for one happy that there is a version of this that is actively supported. If Fractual came back, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone need revert back to his newer version. I may be wrong, but the author of KSPI lite didn't write code like the author of extended has, which means, he could carry this on even if fractal returns. Why is it important to you that nothing is changed? I may be out of date with my info, but the KSPI 0.9 update that extended requires, doesn't change anything.

I actually like that roverdude's mods can interoperate. This makes for easier gameplay experience. He is quite reliable with his support and updates, wouldn't you want mods that can can carry over for every version? Another thought is this, he is actually incorporating his resource system into the basegame for the game devs, so it is good that the mods interoperate.

This is my opinion. Yours is just as good. Cheers

[ABZB]

Right now, I have implemented the Warpdrive by a combination of Roverdude Warp Bubble drive and a modified Crystat Module. The Cryostat module requires a continues power supply which grows as the resource it contains (exotic matter grows). Once you disengage power, the resource will effectively boil-off/evaporate into thin air.

RoverDude Buble Warp engine has several advantages from the previous warpengine.

- Instead of mass, dimension matter. This means some inginuety in the construction of your warpship will be rewarding

- Instead of being on a one way route, you can actually make course correction, heck you can even make loops (which is fun)

- Instead of some boring lines behind your ship, the Warp bubble looks cool

- It contains safety features, which for instance prevent you from flying into the sun or planet.

- Improved causality. If you run out of exotic-matter/helium before you drop out of warp, the bubble will violently collapse, which depending on your speed can rip you ship apart

The are still some things that I don't like, which I plan to solve latter but for the moment the new warp engine is a big improvement

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I have often heard that even if warp travel is possible, the power requirement would be extreme. From a balance perspective, nothing should be for free. The more extraordinary an ability is, the harder the effort should be to achive. With the original warp engines, warp travel was too easy, there was no afford, no achievement.

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EDIT: regarding your assumption to store negative mass in a regalar vat:

So basically the stuff could rip though a regular vat without anything left. If you don't contain it, it will disappear when comes into contact with ordinary matter, which is exactly how I imagined it. Since you want some significant amount of the exotic matter to build up, you going to keep it compressed, which without the help of a solid wall, you need to achieve with strong magnetic fields, which will require extreme amount of power and cooling This made me realize that I forgot the cooling of the superconducter, will generate large amounts of waste heat.

There is also an intresting side effect when creating exotic matter:

so basically, whenever you actually produce exotic matter, you also produce positively charge matter, need to keep it separate it from the negative matter, otherwise, it will simply vanish into nothingness. Fortunately the suffer doesn't annihilate when it comes into contact, otherwise you would create the same effect as an antimatter bomb when you dropped the containment field.

I think that there might be a mis-understanding of negative matter.

It has a negative mass. It does not have a negative electric (or any other) charge. It does not 'cancel out' matter with positive mass. The only difference is the reaction to a force applied to it, and the effect on curvature of space (gravity):

suppose a force of 1 N is applied rightward (+X direction, pretend 1-D movement for simplicity) to a block with mass:

F = m*a

F/m = a

1 kg: 1/1 = 1: accelerated by 1 m/s/s (rightward)

-1 kg: 1/(-1) = -1: accelerated by 1 m/s/s (leftward) - if you push it, it accelerates towards the push.

gravitational force of 1 kg mass on a -1 kg mass:

Fg(1kg on -1 kg) = (G(1)(-1)/r^2)/(-1) = G/r^2; the gravitational force of the (+) mass on the (-) mass is the same as that on a (+) mass of the same magnitude (think absolute value). However, as shown above, the (-) mass is accelerated in the opposite direction of the force applied; so the (-) mass is 'repelled'.

Fg(-1kg on 1 kg) = (G(1)(-1)/r^2)/(1) = -G/r^2; force of (-) mass on (+) mass is a 'push' force. reaction of (+) matter to force applied as usual, accelerates away from (-) mass.

interesting thought experiment - consider a universe containing exactly two particles, identical except for that one has positive mass, one negative. gravity has infinite range. they will accelerate away from each-other forever. If you do the math, the speed of the particles (relative to the original state, presumed to be at rest) as time goes to infinity, is G/r0, where G is the gravitational constant, and r0 is the initial separation between the two particles - they would have to be almost literally on top of each other to even reach 1 m/s after as much time as you care to wait!

[smart013]

Thanks for the replies, but i stand to my statements.

Please keep an option to download the last version (0-7-15?) before this one, that would be nice. Good luck with everything else, thanks for all you´ve done with KSPI up until to this point, and i will wait till the next official version from FractalUK or Boris-Barboris appears. There is a certain possibility that Fractal will include some of your deviations from the original in coming versions, but i doubt the warpdrive will be one of them. The experience with Fractals handling of KSPI Lite was imho telling. But i maybe wrong.

Please understand that i would defend YOUR original ideas from one of YOUR original mods the same way as i do with Fractals up until exactly the moment you as the original creator decide to change them or to officially stand back from the project. So ... no hard feelings please

[Northstar1989]

- Instead of being on a one way route, you can actually make course correction, heck you can even make loops (which is fun)

Fun, yes. But not realistic. The way RoverDude's version operates is less realistic from a physics perspective...

The are still some things that I don't like, which I plan to solve latter but for the moment the new warp engine is a big improvement

You know, I've never actually played with either version- I've only seen videos of each. So, while I can say that Fractal_UK's version is more realistic from a physics perspective, I can't say which is really more fun/exciting/interesting to use...

I have often heard that even if warp travel is possible, the power requirement would be extreme. From a balance perspective, nothing should be for free. The more extraordinary an ability is, the harder the effort should be to achive. With the original warp engines, warp travel was too easy, there was no afford, no achievement.

Yes, the power requirement would be extreme- but to generate the Exotic Matter, not to contain it. The magnetic fields to contain it (if magnetic containment is indeed necessary) shouldn't be any more power-hungry than those to contain antimatter...

EDIT: regarding your assumption to store negative mass in a regalar vat:

So basically the stuff could rip though a regular vat without anything left. If you don't contain it, it will disappear when comes into contact with ordinary matter, which is exactly how I imagined it. Since you want some significant amount of the exotic matter to build up, you going to keep it compressed, which without the help of a solid wall, you need to achieve with strong magnetic fields, which will require extreme amount of power and cooling This made me realize that I forgot the cooling of the superconducter, will generate large amounts of waste heat.

There is also an intresting side effect when creating exotic matter:

so basically, whenever you actually produce exotic matter, you also produce positively charge matter, need to keep it separate it from the negative matter, otherwise, it will simply vanish into nothingness. Fortunately the suffer doesn't annihilate when it comes into contact, otherwise you would create the same effect as an antimatter bomb when you dropped the containment field.

Where did you get these quotes? If they're accurate, then it sounds like an interesting interaction you would want to avert...

Also, the creation of "positive" energy would imply that you actually get some energy back when generating the Exotic Matter- in fact that with a 100% efficient system to generate the Exotic Matter that you could actually produce useful energy while creating it. Of course, the only ways we can dream up to create it right now involve extremely powerful particle-colliders, and as such are going to cost a lot more energy to inefficiency than you get back from the "quantum interest"...

Regards,

Northstar

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I think that there might be a mis-understanding of negative matter.

These were *exactly* my thoughts about Exotic Matter. But FreeThinker is quoting a source that disagrees with our assumptions. So, if that source checks out, then it appears we were both wrong...

Regards,

Northstar

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Well it's inevitable. The problem with KSP Interstellar is that it's not very clear what it is. The Hearth of the system are the reactors. They produce Gigawatts, which is a magnitude 100000 more than what is produced by a regular KSP stock vessel. This creates inconsistencies, which KSPI seem to ignore.

How does KSP-I ignore those inconsistencies?

I think the aim of Interstellar is a gradual road to the stars. It should challenging but rewarding.Interstellar provides the tools to achieve that, which I try to improve upon. Warp capability is the end of the line, after that there is just exploring. Preferably to other Solar systems. But the journey should remain challenging, otherwise it becomes a show

KSPI has to evolve, to improve. Keeping things as they are, is going backwards, and it's also boring! Where do you think my motivation comes from? Would you like to keep watch in the store, or create a more exciting store?

We're in agreement about 95% of this- which is of course why I decided to work with you to help create KSP-I Extended. The one place I'm in disagreement is that I have a slightly different vision of the aim of the mod...

I think the aim of KSP-I is and should be to try and realistically or semi-realistically implement technologies that really are possible, even if they haven't been done yet ("hard" science fiction, if you will), which will enable new interplanetary (and eventually interstellar) travel possibilities. In doing so, they provide players with enhanced capabilities, culminating with the Alcubierre Warp Drive.

But nowhere along the line should KSP-I intentionally try to make things any harder than real life. If real life is or could be imbalanced (if reactionless thrusters like the EmDrive pan out for instance- which is already reflected as a "what if" with he KSP-I "quantum vacuum thruster" parts that you can eventually unlock...) then so should KSP-Interstellar be. In the mod as it is (or could be) in real life, no matter how unbelievable or "OP'd" reality might be...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. You might be interested to learn that humanity is already in possession of one propulsion system with inter-stellar capabilities. The Orion Nuclear Pulse propulsion system has a high enough ISP that it can be adapted for inter-stellar travel, and in fact several designs for doing this already exist...

Edited March 9, 2015 by Northstar1989

[RoverDude]

Fun, yes. But not realistic. The way RoverDude's version operates is less realistic from a physics perspective...

You know, I've never actually played with either version- I've only seen videos of each. So, while I can say that Fractal_UK's version is more realistic from a physics perspective, I can't say which is really more fun/exciting/interesting to use...

I'd challenge you on that, and have in fact used both.

Useability aside, the physics are pretty darn sound. Also, support for conservation of velocity as well as conservation of angular momentum are supported (via a switch in the VAB). Tho I expect Helaeon (one of the collaborators who coded the alternate conservation mode) probably sorts it out all best in this post.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100798-0-90-Alcubierre-Warp-Drive-%28Stand-alone%29-v0-1-0-2014-12-16/page47

Now. I totally get that you don't like me. Rock on. But if you are going to call out a mod that, by your own admission you have not even used (and by your own admission have not even used the one in KSPI), you should (by now) be prepared for a rebuttal.

If you would like to discuss the physics behind my Alcubierre drive, feel free to post in the thread linked above, since we may as well not clutter this one as this is the KSPI thread, not the USI Alcubierre drive thread.

[Northstar1989]

I'd challenge you on that, and have in fact used both.

On the physics?

Useability aside, the physics are pretty darn sound. Also, support for conservation of velocity as well as conservation of angular momentum are supported (via a switch in the VAB). Tho I expect Helaeon (one of the collaborators who coded the alternate conservation mode) probably sorts it out all best in this post.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100798-0-90-Alcubierre-Warp-Drive-%28Stand-alone%29-v0-1-0-2014-12-16/page47

I was going off your demonstration video of the drive- which appeared to show conservation of angular rather than linear momentum. The problem with that (besides that some models of how the drive works- which I find more believable- support that the drive would conserve linear rather than momentum) is that it isn't implemented correctly in your mod. If you were still subject to gravity, it would continue to curve your path, even while in warp. Thus, a warp-drive would become something more analogous to time-warp in KSP, where your path continues along the same orbit, just at a faster pace... (which isn't really that useful in KSP unless you're using a life-support mod)

If there's a switch to use conservation of linear momentum instead that can be used in the VAB, then I guess it's actually no less accurate that KSP-I's original version, which works on conservation of linear momentum... Except the whole bit about changing the physical laws of the universe with the flick of a switch.

Now. I totally get that you don't like me. Rock on. But if you are going to call out a mod that, by your own admission you have not even used (and by your own admission have not even used the one in KSPI), you should (by now) be prepared for a rebuttal.

If you would like to discuss the physics behind my Alcubierre drive, feel free to post in the thread linked above, since we may as well not clutter this one as this is the KSPI thread, not the USI Alcubierre drive thread.

I don't have anything against you RoverDude. I was under the impression that you had something against me.

The post you linked to describes the fundamental physics issue fairly well. I'm of the school of thought that an Alcubierre Drive would conserve linear rather than angular momentum, and find the physics behind it more convincing... Haelaeon at least made a convincing case for why the Alcubierre Drive might conserve angular momentum instead, even if his arguments haven't won me over...

However if you want to base the Alcubierre Drive off the hypothesis that you don't separate from normal space-time when you activate the drive, and thus angular momentum (rather than linear momentum) is conserved, then gravity needs to continue to curve your path as normal- in which case the Alcubierre Drive doesn't allow you to leave a planetary system without first reaching escape-velocity, and acts as little more than deadweight on a spacecraft without life-support requirements...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 9, 2015 by Northstar1989

[jinks]

Looking through the configs for 0.7.18, just so I get this straight:

• If I have only KSPI, I get no WarpDrive at all any more. (Since it can't load the USI models defined in the new part.cfgs)
  
• If I have KSPI and USI WarpDrive and not NFT-E, I get the KSPI WarDrive but not the USI WarpDrive.
  
• If I have KSPI and USI WarpDrive and NFT-E, I get both WarpDrives but with wildly different requirements (GW vs EC)
  

(assuming CTT as TechTree of course.)

Correct?

[helaeon]

I'd be unlikely to do much better than my post that RoverDude linked as to the hypothesized physics for an Alcubierre Drive. So for those interested read that. I was looking to explain the reasoning behind the alternate mode, if you entertain the possibility even if not convinced that's mission accomplished for me. Because... "hypothesis", nobody knows because frankly the whole idea could be pure fantasy. If it works it is beyond known physics and may behave in a way we would not predict or know until we turn one on. For all we know your orbital velocity upon turning off a warp drive would be zero because your velocity inside your warp bubble is zero. Or the drive would be impossible to turn off, so the whole thing would be moot because now you're some sort of tachyon forever.

Until someone makes exotic matter or NASAs experiments into space warping show us something or aliens visit using one and share the knowledge we really don't know and they are all equally as correct.

I think the thing you're missing from how this drive is supposed to work regardless of energy conversion is that your ship is staying still and space is effectively moving through itself using its shape to propel that flat spot. Whether that flat spot is disconnected from space time is part of the debate. Either way you're being pushed by space itself and that is providing the propulsion up, down, and around the gravity well. It would be like if the cement around your car liquefied and a wave of liquid cement pushed your island of regular cement to a new location. This analogy doesn't quite work, but it gives a good idea of the propulsion idea. Energy conservation could be obeyed in two ways (and hypothesis again) your raw speed has to change as you move in the gravity well otherwise you receive or lose potential energy; or your raw linear momentum stays constant and you do gain orbital energy & angular momentum based on your position in the gravity well. Total energy conservation here isn't possible, so it could be either because based on normal physics both are wrong.

If you are not disconnected from space-time, your trajectory is altered by gravity as it would be for light. You effectively hit escape velocity for that gravity well, if you want to, as soon as you activate the drive. The trajectory shown in the map screen, regardless of conservation, is what your ship is going to do when you turn off the drive. You are propagating yourself through space itself just as light does. The way krakensbane works kind of turns every ship into an Alcubierre drive, and when using the function to move the ship, you're using krakensbane truly as an Alcubierre drive.

I agree fully that linear momentum being conserved might be reality. Both RoverDude's original and KSPI's drive works about right if that's the case. The whole reason I proposed angular momentum conserving version was that everyone was using the linear momentum version and I wanted to try the other one. Linear momentum conservation is far simpler to code, I understand fully there. I wanted to see what the other way was like and thought others might want to as well. Then one could make their own choice of which side they fall on based on the reasoning they are most convinced by and which one seems more correct to them after using it. For me it all started when warping out to Jool from Kerbin and thinking "how... does my ship have this much energy suddenly?", then I looked into it and saw lots of disagreement. There are even more ideas of what might happen beyond these two thoughts.

These are space toys for us to play with, the switch gives the player the choice to play with the toys as they want - you know the very reason we mod KSP in the first place and many of us alter the cfgs to suit our tastes. I knew this would be controversial with folks falling in both camps... so did both. I thought about putting the toggle in the cfg, but thought it was better from the player's perspective to choose in-game for those that aren't comfortable editing those files.

[FreeThinker]

Where did you get these quotes? If they're accurate, then it sounds like an interesting interaction you would want to avert...

My source: http://www.askamathematician.com/2012/02/q-whats-the-difference-between-anti-matter-and-negative-matter/

[FreeThinker]

Who exactly knows how a Alcubierre Warp Drive is really supposed to work? It probably is imposible and it it is possible, it will be very hard, meaning it will require a lot efford to achieve. In the new warpdrive I realize this efford by creating a barrier, an energy treshhold you need to overcome, before you are allowed to enter warp.

I think the aim of KSP-I is and should be to try and realistically or semi-realistically implement technologies that really are possible, even if they haven't been done yet ("hard" science fiction, if you will), which will enable new interplanetary (and eventually interstellar) travel possibilities. In doing so, they provide players with enhanced capabilities, culminating with the Alcubierre Warp Drive.

I agree KSPI should focus on Hard Science fiction, but Alcubierre Warp Drive is not exactly "hard"science. Frankly I'm not sure if it even belongs in the WarpPlugin (KSPI) because however you want to implement it, it always involves a lot of hand waving. For example, once you have created your exotic matter, how is that going to allow you to turn it into something usefull like a warp bubble? Are you you just have to say some magic words? Because that's what you imply when you state no additional power is required once you have created the stuff. beside the fact that exotic matter will constantly try to cancel itself out, you supposedly need use the stuff to create a warp field, which either way will require a lot of constant additional power to maintain. Note this is also one of my main issues with the current warpbubble drive, it should cost power/antimatter to active the warpdrive, currently it functions kind of like magic spell, you say the magic words and a magic sphere appears arround the vesel. pure magic.

In the end, It's just a matter of choice, do you want to make WarpTravel easy, medium or hard?

.

Edited March 9, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Nansuchao]

While the two kind of Warp Drive are different, and the Rover Dude isn't still perfect (the first time I tried I falled in to the sun), could you please let in the two Warp Drive togheter? Sometimes I like to travel to other stars, and so I think many others. With Interstellar Warp Drive we can, with the other not again or not safely.

[FreeThinker]

While the two kind of Warp Drive are different, and the Rover Dude isn't still perfect (the first time I tried I falled in to the sun), could you please let in the two Warp Drive togheter? Sometimes I like to travel to other stars, and so I think many others. With Interstellar Warp Drive we can, with the other not again or not safely.

These are space toys for us to play with, the switch gives the player the choice to play with the toys as they want - you know the very reason we mod KSP in the first place and many of us alter the cfgs to suit our tastes. I knew this would be controversial with folks falling in both camps... so did both. I thought about putting the toggle in the cfg, but thought it was better from the player's perspective to choose in-game for those that aren't comfortable editing those files.

I agree, in my opinion, WarpTravel is far from "hard" science and therefore does not fully belong in the "hard sci fy" KSP Interstellar universe. Still I want

to make Warp Travel "space toys" an supported option, that's why I'm thinking about giving people to option to choose between several warp engines to use.

They will have the choice between:

- GigaWatt balanced, limited travel warpdrive (KSPI Extended Warpdrive)

- MegaWatt balanced, infinite travel warpdrive (Fractals KSPI WarpDrive)

- KiloWatt balanced, limited travel warpdrive (RoverDude USI Warpdrive)

Edited March 9, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

While the two kind of Warp Drive are different, and the Rover Dude isn't still perfect (the first time I tried I falled in to the sun), could you please let in the two Warp Drive togheter? Sometimes I like to travel to other stars, and so I think many others. With Interstellar Warp Drive we can, with the other not again or not safely.

Info may be a bit out of date it's rock solid even at extreme speeds, and has a proximity bit that will drop you out of warp if you get too close to an SOI (like, I dunno, warping into the sun )