KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

[yafeshan]

I have been playing with KSPI since 0.24, I can't even touch the game until mod is updated for new version. Thanks so much Freethinker for taking the task of maintaining mod.

I write this since you ask for contribution. I am not good at graphic design or programming but i can say a thing or two about science. Its a great mod but there is one concern for me. Game becomes too easy when i get fusion and vista engine. I can simply go anywhere without thinking about dV anymore. It becomes too overpowered at some point.

Real nuclear power generation have a big drawback which is not used in this mode(afaik). Nuclear waste. It is very costly to deal with it, you should store them for long periods of time or use some high cost procedure to eliminate them in suitable reactors. Nuclear waste problem gets bigger with the age of reactor.

How can we use it ourselves here. If we have some waste we can just jettison it to outer space right? Or can we use it to limit lifetime/efficiency of our generators. Nuclear waste buildup can be used as an extra load on power generation rather than being a separate resource.

Launch our rocket with usual power generation efficiency, by the time it reaches Jool after 5 years we will have some nuclear waste buildup that will reduce power generation efficiency. Nuclear waste is only going up, our engines need power to operate, at some point power will not be enough to enable a return trip so we should plan when we should go back home. However, if we work so hard then we can build a nuclear waste disposal station in orbit around Jool, just like a resource mining/refining outpost, antimatter collector arrays. We all know this kind of project require so much time.

It can be said that fusion and antimatter do not produce waste. Neutron emission in fusion reactors are the main source of heat generation, they generate heat for us to use but they also produce radioactive material when they hit inner shell of tokamak reactor. This is short half-life material but more radioactive than fission nuclear waste. We can also invent some kind of reason for antimatter too. For example long term antimatter storage cause deterioration on storage facility so energy requirements increase exponentially in time. This will mean antimatter collection array stations will require another heavy module for continuous maintenance of antimatter storage.

This kind of power generation will limit our ability to use overpowered power generation with very high dV vessels. There is still a workaround, build a microwave network but that system require so much work with any decent power generation through the solar system.

Edited April 28, 2015 by yafeshan

[FreeThinker]

I write this since you ask for contribution. I am not good at graphic design or programming but i can say a thing or two about science. Its a great mod but there is one concern for me. Game becomes too easy when i get fusion and vista engine. I can simply go anywhere without thinking about dV anymore. It becomes too overpowered at some point.

I shared you concern and the Vista Engines was indeed overpowered from both a game-balance and realism point of view. The Vista Engines combines High ISP and High Thrust, something that requires tremendous amount of power. Fusion creates a lot of power, but most of is useless radiation and neutrons (especially D-T fusion). That's why I updated the Vista Engine to generate 2+ 10 GW of additional Waste Heat, meaning, waste heat will be a major issue to deal with. The mass and technology required to keep you ship from overheating, makes the vista a lot more balanced.

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

How can we use it ourselves here. If we have some waste we can just jettison it to outer space right? Or can we use it to limit lifetime/efficiency of our generators. Nuclear waste buildup can be used as an extra load on power generation rather than being a separate resource.

Well what we could do is make the Nuclear Waste generate Wasteheat. How much Now if you can tell me how much WasteHeat every KG of waste material, I could implement a simple algorith that generate Wasteheat on the amount of stored wasteheat.

[Carcharhinidae]

whoa... already updated! that is impressive. I haven't played much since 0.9, but with 1.0 I'm raring to go again. and this mod has been one of my standards since fractal released it way back.

[FreeThinker]

whoa... already updated! that is impressive. I haven't played much since 0.9, but with 1.0 I'm raring to go again. and this mod has been one of my standards since fractal released it way back.

You should be able to play in standbox mod , support for carreer/science mode is not functional at the moment, untill the (CTT) techtree is restored

Edit: could someone help me convert KSPI graphics to *.dds format?

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Threadsinger]

I have been playing with KSPI since 0.24, I can't even touch the game until mod is updated for new version. Thanks so much Freethinker for taking the task of maintaining mod.

I write this since you ask for contribution. I am not good at graphic design or programming but i can say a thing or two about science. Its a great mod but there is one concern for me. Game becomes too easy when i get fusion and vista engine. I can simply go anywhere without thinking about dV anymore. It becomes too overpowered at some point.

This kind of power generation will limit our ability to use overpowered power generation with very high dV vessels. There is still a workaround, build a microwave network but that system require so much work with any decent power generation through the solar system.

Hi yafeshan (and FreeThinker),

I've heard this complaint before regarding KSP-I. With respect, fusion/antimatter/warp drive engines are supposed to be overpowered, ridiculously, compared to chemical engines. If we had them today, we'd have little use for chemical rockets, much in the same way if that we had fusion reactors we'd have little use for coal as a power source. I've always been an advocate of this point when I see comments on the relative "ease" of using endgame parts by players. Yes, managing delta-v becomes easier. Because it should. If players find the fusion-era technologies too "easy", perhaps NF-E is better tailored to their desired experience. Or K+, with its caveat that its core exotic resource is a pain to get and thus "balanced" for KSP gameplay.

Frankly, in my opinion, KSP-I isn't a "sidegrade" for KSP, it's an endgame upgrade which lets you experiment with the possibilities of very powerful, very efficient engines as they would be in real life. Especially with the particular focus this mod has on realism, adding some resource management into the mix. It is more of a NewGame+ experience, which is what makes it a lot of fun in career mode after you've crawled up the tech tree 50 missions to earn your first nuclear turbojet SSTO. Once you earn your VISTA engine, or "high-Q" fusion upgrade, or whathaveyou, players should be rewarded with awesome new capabilities (in context of this mod), not hamstrung. Because they will start to wonder why they bothered unlocking it in the first place. We already need to collect a bunch of science and exotic resources (and funds) to get these parts into play.

My concern here trying to balance KSP-I too much against the vanilla KSP experience - it can't while still retaining the same characteristics and technical flavor that make KSP-I so much fun. Much in the same way you can't balance a Ferrari in a game featuring go-karts, but it's a lot of fun to earn that Ferrari and see how it handles compared to go-karts.

Also, as a general design consideration, please keep in mind that most drawbacks that you put onto KSP-I (or any mod) can be generally be overcome with more engines, fuel tanks, tons of radiators, or ejectable waste tanks, at a cost of frustration. And if the drawbacks are too extreme, then players might lose interest. Or you enter the eternal battle of part tweaks, nerfs, and adjustments.

[Nansuchao]

Hi yafeshan (and FreeThinker),

I've heard this complaint before regarding KSP-I. With respect, fusion/antimatter/warp drive engines are supposed to be overpowered, ridiculously, compared to chemical engines. If we had them today, we'd have little use for chemical rockets, much in the same way if that we had fusion reactors we'd have little use for coal as a power source. I've always been an advocate of this point when I see comments on the relative "ease" of using endgame parts by players. Yes, managing delta-v becomes easier. Because it should. If players find the fusion-era technologies too "easy", perhaps NF-E is better tailored to their desired experience. Or K+, with its caveat that its core exotic resource is a pain to get and thus "balanced" for KSP gameplay.

Frankly, in my opinion, KSP-I isn't a "sidegrade" for KSP, it's an endgame upgrade which lets you experiment with the possibilities of very powerful, very efficient engines as they would be in real life. Especially with the particular focus this mod has on realism, adding some resource management into the mix. It is more of a NewGame+ experience, which is what makes it a lot of fun in career mode after you've crawled up the tech tree 50 missions to earn your first nuclear turbojet SSTO. Once you earn your VISTA engine, or "high-Q" fusion upgrade, or whathaveyou, players should be rewarded with awesome new capabilities (in context of this mod), not hamstrung. Because they will start to wonder why they bothered unlocking it in the first place. We already need to collect a bunch of science and exotic resources (and funds) to get these parts into play.

My concern here trying to balance KSP-I too much against the vanilla KSP experience - it can't while still retaining the same characteristics and technical flavor that make KSP-I so much fun. Much in the same way you can't balance a Ferrari in a game featuring go-karts, but it's a lot of fun to earn that Ferrari and see how it handles compared to go-karts.

Also, as a general design consideration, please keep in mind that most drawbacks that you put onto KSP-I (or any mod) can be generally be overcome with more engines, fuel tanks, tons of radiators, or ejectable waste tanks, at a cost of frustration. And if the drawbacks are too extreme, then players might lose interest. Or you enter the eternal battle of part tweaks, nerfs, and adjustments.

I completely agree!

[FreeThinker]

Real nuclear power generation have a big drawback which is not used in this mode(afaik). Nuclear waste. It is very costly to deal with it, you should store them for long periods of time or use some high cost procedure to eliminate them in suitable reactors. Nuclear waste problem gets bigger with the age of reactor.

What about the reactors and fusion rockets? from my understanding nutron are not only bad for living things but also for reactors and engines which are effected by Neuton Activation. Especialy the Vista, which is subject to Huge amount of Neutrons

Translation: the steel girders and everything else too close to the reactor will eventually become radioactive in and of themselves. Your nuclear engine will gradually turn into low-level radioactive waste. This makes it treacherous for the crew to leave the spacecraft, and drastically lowers the re-sale value. This is a good reason to make your spacecraft modular, so you can detach the nuclear engine and swap it for one that doesn't glow in the dark.

So even if its offline, getting a kerbal below the Vista is a bad Idea

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Gitimus]

Hey I am having a few issues with this mod. Firstly the Thermal Thrusters have effects on as if its in flight in all areas of the game (rocket building, space plane hanger etc). I am also unable to connect them to anything while they are like this. Secondly some parts will not connect to other parts unless they are oriented the correct way. I.E. the fission reactors won't connect to generators or to the "Warp Ring" without making other parts unable to connect. (Basically there is not freedom to connect what parts to where no matter orientation). The radiators won't connect to any of the parts unless the reactor or generators are facing the right way. This is a pretty frustrating thing since after updating the whole thing (mods included) it blew up ships due to this bug that are already in flight. What should I do?

[FreeThinker]

Hey I am having a few issues with this mod. Firstly the Thermal Thrusters have effects on as if its in flight in all areas of the game (rocket building, space plane hanger etc). I am also unable to connect them to anything while they are like this. Secondly some parts will not connect to other parts unless they are oriented the correct way. I.E. the fission reactors won't connect to generators or to the "Warp Ring" without making other parts unable to connect. (Basically there is not freedom to connect what parts to where no matter orientation). The radiators won't connect to any of the parts unless the reactor or generators are facing the right way. This is a pretty frustrating thing since after updating the whole thing (mods included) it blew up ships due to this bug that are already in flight. What should I do?

Very weird, I tested it myself now and it appears that the same problem arise with all KSPI parts , including parts that have no functionality at all and only serve as basic storage device. I don't see any exception or error messages, except at the start when I receive a message telling that there are incompatibilities for installed mods. I suspect this is the problem. Any help to fix this would be more than welcome

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Refax]

@UP

Yeah, i have same problem, can you fix this fundamentally important bug as soon as you can?

[yafeshan]

Hi yafeshan (and FreeThinker),

Also, as a general design consideration, please keep in mind that most drawbacks that you put onto KSP-I (or any mod) can be generally be overcome with more engines, fuel tanks, tons of radiators, or ejectable waste tanks, at a cost of frustration. And if the drawbacks are too extreme, then players might lose interest. Or you enter the eternal battle of part tweaks, nerfs, and adjustments.

My proposal was not about decreasing the initial dV. It was about decreasing efficiency of power generation for long time missions, say 10-15 years long missions. You can keep the awesome ship you make but in time its efficiency will decrease, in time you will not be able to power up your engines.

I respect your view, I did the exact same things to reach those awesome reactors and engines because after that I would go anywhere do anything I want. You know what, at that point game started to become boring for me. There was no challenge left, no more detailed planning to accomplish something. You can simply say that i should not use the mod if It makes me feel bored at the end. However, I like the interstellar mod, want to play with it but I also want it be challenging even I reach the end game.

[FreeThinker]

@UP

Yeah, i have same problem, can you fix this fundamentally important bug as soon as you can?

I would like to but I'm not sure how to.

Edit: Squad seems to have fundamentally changed the Part model system,

We need to change node vectors, or use actual transforms and NODE definitions (IIRC)

I need help from a modeller!

- - - Updated - - -

My proposal was not about decreasing the initial dV. It was about decreasing efficiency of power generation for long time missions, say 10-15 years long missions. You can keep the awesome ship you make but in time its efficiency will decrease, in time you will not be able to power up your engines.

I respect your view, I did the exact same things to reach those awesome reactors and engines because after that I would go anywhere do anything I want. You know what, at that point game started to become boring for me. There was no challenge left, no more detailed planning to accomplish something. You can simply say that i should not use the mod if It makes me feel bored at the end. However, I like the interstellar mod, want to play with it but I also want it be challenging even I reach the end game.

Well, everything has wear and tear and Nuclear engines in space were not design for longlivity in mind.

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Gitimus]

I would like to but I'm not sure how to.

Edit: Squad seems to have fundamentally changed the Part model system,

We need to change node vectors, or use actual transforms and NODE definitions (IIRC)

I need help from a modeller!

- - - Updated - - -

Interestingly enough I am a 3d modeller but not a mod maker. So I have no idea how to do this myself. Surely its a cause of scripting about how parts go together ranter than changing the item to match the node? Or am i speaking nonsense here?

[Refax]

I think I have a good idea of how to do this, do you think that it is possible to create a modification to restore the previous connecting parts system?

[FreeThinker]

Alright, it appears to be a generic problem and I found a simple solution:

FYI, the attachment node orientation has indeed been enforced, and the quick fix (which actually corresponds to what squad did in their CFGs) is to turn the bottom node upside-down.

For instance, in the FL-T100 tank, the attachment nodes used to be:

    node_stack_top = 0.0, 0.3125, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1
    node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.3125, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1

And now, they are: (note the negative axis in the "bottom" node)

    node_stack_top = 0.0, 0.3125, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1
    node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.3125, 0.0, 0.0, -1.0, 0.0, 1

So now I can fix all part nodes, and in the process I also learned how to convert all textures to dds. This should make loading significantly faster.

Another problems is that KSPI relied on some models that have been deleted, like the precooler. I need to find an alternative for that.

On the subject of models. KSP could use a lot better models. Many are simplistic and don't do the mod justice.

Then there are the Graffics effects, which are either horrible or lacking. For Examplethe Vista Engines produses more than 150 GW of power when it's providing thrust. It should be blinding! yet, it look a simple small thruster. KSPI could look so much better. but I don't have any Modeling, Texturing or Graphic effects skills. Again if any want to be modelerer/techturer/effects want to help me, or learn, now is the time!

Edited April 29, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FullerBot]

I have been having problems with Interstellar mod for KSP 1.0. The game will always freeze when loading, appearing to freeze on the AluminumHybrid1 part area. Can anyone help with this?

Thanks!

FullerBot

[FreeThinker]

I have been having problems with Interstellar mod for KSP 1.0. The game will always freeze when loading, appearing to freeze on the AluminumHybrid1 part area. Can anyone help with this?

I have not seen this problem yet. Have you updated to KSP 1.0? Have you removed TechManager?

Edited April 29, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Carcharhinidae]

Alright, it appears to be a generic problem and I found a simple solution:

So now I can fix all part nodes, and in the process I also learned how to convert all textures to dds. This should make loading significantly faster.

Another problems is that KSPI relied on some models that have been deleted, like the precooler. I need to find an alternative for that.

On the subject of models. KSP could use a lot better models. Many are simplistic and don't do the mod justice.

Then there are the Graffics effects, which are either horrible or lacking. For Examplethe Vista Engines produses more than 150 GW of power when it's providing thrust. It should be blinding! yet, it look a simple small thruster. KSPI could look so much better. but I don't have any Modeling, Texturing or Graphic effects skills. Again if any want to be modelerer/techturer/effects want to help me, or learn, now is the time!

as for the deleted models. you could take them from the old KSP version and package them with the mod as a temporary measure. I wish I was any good at modeling to help, but I'm not.

[Citizen247]

Then there are the Graffics effects, which are either horrible or lacking. For Examplethe Vista Engines produses more than 150 GW of power when it's providing thrust. It should be blinding! yet, it look a simple small thruster. KSPI could look so much better. but I don't have any Modeling, Texturing or Graphic effects skills. Again if any want to be modelerer/techturer/effects want to help me, or learn, now is the time!

I'm not sure about how you'd go about making the Vista very bright, but I'd guess you'd want very large sprites for the particles and a very bright light spawned while the engine is running.

Anyway, I'd be pretty happy to help, I've been modelling in blender for some time, and my texturing skills are ok too. I've not got much in the way of examples off hand, but I was working on this a few years back:

I've not got a huge amount of spare time, but if you can give me an idea of what assets you want, and a rough idea of how you envision them looking I can look at putting some things together for you.

[FreeThinker]

I'm not sure about how you'd go about making the Vista very bright, but I'd guess you'd want very large sprites for the particles and a very bright light spawned while the engine is running.

Yes, the Vista effectly produces miniature fusion explosions. Is should kind of like that.

The Electric Engines are even more horrible, they seem to produce clauds of dust behind them, not at all like a real plasma thruster. I need someone to investigate better thrust effects for all SKPI engines, so they look more realsitic and believable.

[Yemo]

Hey,

I have an idea on how to improve the interstellar fuel switch, especially should you release it as a separate dll download.

Could you add something like a size factor to it, like the scaling factor from the TAC life support converters?

For example with the TAC life support converters, the base values do not need to be adjusted for larger versions. You can just increase the factor eg from 3 to 9. This makes adding such a module via MM statements much easier, since the factor could just be calculated by MM itself, using the standard mass of the components as a basis. While the fuel resources can be changed independently of the factor, accounting for mod specific resourses like argon or karbonite.

[FreeThinker]

Actualy the interstellarFuelSwitch already has this, it's used by Tweakscale to correctly scale the (dry) Mass and Fuel Volume amount

TWEAKSCALEEXPONENTS
{
    name = InsterstellarFuelSwitch
    volumeMultiplier = 3
    massMultiplier = 2.5
}

Edited April 29, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Citizen247]

A quick look at the cfg's indicates that the relevant lines for the Vista effects are:

fx_exhaustFlame_blue_small = 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, running
fx_exhaustLight_blue = 0.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, running

fx_exhaustFlame_blue_small seems to be a predefined fx type, I think there's a normal sized one, but I would suspect it would need custom effects to get what you want. I can't really look into it more deeply at the moment, but will try to tonight.

[FreeThinker]

A quick look at the cfg's indicates that the relevant lines for the Vista effects are:

fx_exhaustFlame_blue_small = 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, running
fx_exhaustLight_blue = 0.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, running

fx_exhaustFlame_blue_small seems to be a predefined fx type, I think there's a normal sized one, but I would suspect it would need custom effects to get what you want. I can't really look into it more deeply at the moment, but will try to tonight.

Sounds great