KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

[emerald]

KSP Interstellar Extended together with USI UKS and NearFuture Electrical leads to NullReferenceExceptions when instanciating the USI Nukes in RactorPack UmbraSpaceIndustries/ReactorPack/Nuke_*.cfg and KSP stops loading other parts, so the game never finishes loading.

Removing the patch in KSPIE WarpPlugin/Patches/MKSReactors.cfg make it load again as removing NearFuture Electrical too.

Checked using UKS_0.40.4.0.zip NearFutureElectrical0_7_5.zip KSPI_Extended_1.9.zip in a clean KSP 1.1.3 install.

[raxo2222]

@FreeThinker Since drill has ore buffer and ISRU has resource buffer, can we get gas buffer for air scoop?

[FreeThinker]

Version 1.9.1 for Kerbal Space Program 1.1.3

Released on 2016-06-28

• Added compatibility with SCANsat
• Added Universal Holding Tank
• Added Pressurized Gas Tank

[raxo2222]

12 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Version 1.9.1 for Kerbal Space Program 1.1.3

Released on 2016-06-28

• Added compatibility with SCANsat
• Added Universal Holding Tank
• Added Pressurized Gas Tank

Why pressurized gas tank has mass ratio lower than 1:1?

Also Universal Holding Tank crashes game when changing resource.

[FreeThinker]

3 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

Why pressurized gas tank has mass ratio lower than 1:1?

Well it is the result of Physics, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

The pressurized gas tank  gas tank consist of 2 parts, A pressure vessel and a frame. The pressure vessel hold a fixed amount of volume of gas pressurized at at 200 bar. It does not matter if the Gas is Hydrogen of Xenon, both exert the same 200 bar pressure. This mean in both cases, you need the same strength to keep it at 200 an therefore the same mass to keep the gas pressurized. The second part, the frame, connect the vessel to the rest of the ship, the strength needed depends on the mass of the stored gas. Because the mass of the pressure vessel is fixed, this is disadvantageous for light gasses like Hydrogen as their low density will result in overall bad mass fraction compared to Xenon with it high Density. This is in short the reason why storing Pressurized Hydrogen in space is not efficient in terms of mass.

3 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

Also Universal Holding Tank crashes game when changing resource.

It might have something to do with the resource that isn't clearly defined (or double). Exactly at what point did it crash and how?

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[raxo2222]

1 hour ago, FreeThinker said:

Well it is the result of Physics, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

The pressurized gas tank  gas tank consist of 2 parts, A pressure vessel and a frame. The pressure vessel hold a fixed amount of volume of gas pressurized at at 200 bar. It does not matter if the Gas is Hydrogen of Xenon, both exert the same 200 bar pressure. This mean in both cases, you need the same strength to keep it at 200 an therefore the same mass to keep the gas pressurized. The second part, the frame, connect the vessel to the rest of the ship, the strength needed depends on the mass of the stored gas. Because the mass of the pressure vessel is fixed, this is disadvantageous for light gasses like Hydrogen as their low density will result in overall bad mass fraction compared to Xenon with it high Density. This is in short the reason why storing Pressurized Hydrogen in space is not efficient in terms of mass.

It might have something to do with the resource that isn't clearly defined (or double). Exactly at what point did it crash and how?

Well all gasses except hydrogen have mass ratios of 1:0.4

 

First I wanted to switch tank type, but it glitched out, and then tried to switch resource, and it instantly crashed.

[FreeThinker]

1 hour ago, raxo2222 said:

First I wanted to switch tank type, but it glitched out, and then tried to switch resource, and it instantly crashed.

I identified the problem, the was a error made in the IFS definition, it is fixed in next version

[raxo2222]

21 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

I identified the problem, the was a error made in the IFS definition, it is fixed in next version

Okay

 

Also stock gas tanks have mass radio higher than 1:1...

[FreeThinker]

42 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Okay

 

Also stock gas tanks have mass radio higher than 1:1...

Any source?

I'm trying to determine what would be the minimum mass of 2.5m  cylindrical tank made of carbon fiber an how much STP gas it can store,

perhaps we can make use of this source: http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/next-generation-pressure-vessels

the volume of a 2.5m sphere = 3/4 * pi * r^3 = 4600 L

A 1.9 L with a operational Pressure of 200 psi has a mass of 0.2kg

assuming we can scale this up linearly.

A 4600 L  with a operational Pressure of 200 psi has a mass of 484kg

That's indeed a lot better than our steel tank with a minimum mass of 2000 kg

 

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[raxo2222]

59 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Any source?

I'm trying to determine what would be the minimum mass of 2.5m  cylindrical tank made of carbon fiber an how much STP gas it can store,

perhaps we can make use of this source: http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/next-generation-pressure-vessels

the volume of a 2.5m sphere = 3/4 * pi * r^3 = 4600 L

A 1.9 L with a operational Pressure of 200 psi has a mass of 0.2kg

assuming we can scale this up linearly.

A 4600 L  with a operational Pressure of 200 psi has a mass of 484kg

That's indeed a lot better than our steel tank with a minimum mass of 2000 kg

 

 

SMURFF may be meddling with stock gas  tank.

For other gasses mass ratio is much lower than 1:1

 

Looks like IFS/SMURFF/MFT have different views on proper mass ratios.

Edited June 28, 2016 by raxo2222

[FreeThinker]

33 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Looks like IFS/SMURFF/MFT have different views on proper mass ratios.

Well for IFS, I realy didn't put much though into it.The main purpose what a tech demonstration, not an accurate simulation for a  pressurized gas tank

I think it realy depends what you use as a reference point.

Using real data on a carbon fiber 200 psi gas tank, I created the folling IFS defenition:

MODULE
{
	name = InterstellarFuelSwitch
	resourceGui = Argon;Deuterium;CarbonDioxide;Fluorine;Helium3;Helium4;Hydrogen;Krypton;Neon;Nitrogen;Methane;Oxygen;Xenon
	resourceNames = ArgonGas;Deuterium;CarbonDioxide;Fluorine;Helium3;Helium4;Hydrogen;KryptonGas;NeonGas;Nitrogen;Methane;Oxygen;XenonGas
	resourceAmounts = 920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;184000
	basePartMass = 0.484
	baseResourceMassDivider = 16
	displayCurrentTankCost = true
	displayCurrentBoilOffTemp = true
	hasGUI = false
	availableInFlight = true
	availableInEditor = true
	showInfo = true
}

Notice I use a combination of a fixed mass and a variable mass based on resource density. This give quite good result where Xenon get a maximum mass fraction of 11.3 (Xenon) and the worst mass fraction is 0.2 (Hydrogen)

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[raxo2222]

35 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Well for IFS, I realy didn't put much though into it.The main purpose what a tech demonstration, not an accurate simulation for a  pressurized gas tank

I think it realy depends what you use as a reference point.

Using real data on a carbon fiber 200 psi gas tank, I created the folling IFS defenition:

MODULE
{
	name = InterstellarFuelSwitch
	resourceGui = Argon;Deuterium;CarbonDioxide;Fluorine;Helium3;Helium4;Hydrogen;Krypton;Neon;Nitrogen;Methane;Oxygen;Xenon
	resourceNames = ArgonGas;Deuterium;CarbonDioxide;Fluorine;Helium3;Helium4;Hydrogen;KryptonGas;NeonGas;Nitrogen;Methane;Oxygen;XenonGas
	resourceAmounts = 920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;920000;184000
	basePartMass = 0.484
	baseResourceMassDivider = 16
	displayCurrentTankCost = true
	displayCurrentBoilOffTemp = true
	hasGUI = false
	availableInFlight = true
	availableInEditor = true
	showInfo = true
}

Notice I use a combination of a fixed mass and a variable mass based on resource density. This give quite good result where Xenon get a maximum mass fraction of 11.3 (Xenon) and the worst mass fraction is 0.2 (Hydrogen)

Hmm so interstellar would first use normal tanks, and after upgrade these carbon fiber tanks.

Standard spherical fuel tanks have mass ratio of  1:10

That would mean for Xenon, that it would be very efficient when it comes to mass ratio.

BTW stock ore with SMURFF has mass ratio of 1:20 while interstellar ores have mass ratio below 1:5

Edited June 28, 2016 by raxo2222

[FreeThinker]

20 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Hmm so interstellar would first use normal tanks, and after upgrade these carbon fiber tanks.

Even standard spherical fuel tanks have mass ratio of  1:10

Well Universal Storage appears to use 400 psi, perhaps we can use this as well, which would significantly improve mass fractions

[raxo2222]

15 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Well Universal Storage appears to use 400 psi, perhaps we can use this as well, which would significantly improve mass fractions

We could make upgradable pressurized tanks.

I wonder if at unified field theory we could have max pressure of 1000 - 2000 psi.

With that theory we could simulate EM forces with great accuracy and detail enabling us to create even better materials.

At this  tech we have black hole reactors, warp drives, quantum vacuum engines and other 23rd century stuff.

Since lower gas temperature means lower pressure we could make them cryogenic - keep them at 250 or even 200 k.

Wonder if 100 k would be possible for these tanks.

Edited June 28, 2016 by raxo2222

[FreeThinker]

4 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

We could make upgradable pressurized tanks.

I wonder if at unified field theory we could have max pressure of 1000 - 2000 psi.

With that theory we could simulate EM forces with great accuracy and detail enabling us to create even better materials.

At this  tech we have black hole reactors, warp drives, quantum vacuum engines and other 23rd century stuff.

Yes, the idea of technology driven improved storage performance is indeed in the line of KSPI-E which has many  part performance linked to technological advances already. I guess the same could apply to storage technology.

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[raxo2222]

21 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Yes, the idea of technology driven improved storage performance is indeed in the line of KSPI-E which has many  part performance linked to technological advances already. I guess the same could apply to storage technology.

I wonder if we could have for example 1:20 - 1:50 mass ratio for spherical container, that can hold liquid resources.

[FreeThinker]

25 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

I wonder if we could have for example 1:20 - 1:50 mass ratio for spherical container, that can hold liquid resources.

Well considering Carbon fiber is about 4 times as light for the same strength , mass fractions of  1:32- 1:40 might be possible.

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[raxo2222]

12 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Well considering Carbon fiber is about 4 times as light for the same strength , mass fractions of  1:32- 1:40 might be possible.

And how high temperatures during reentry carbon fiber can endure? Won't it erode on collisions with superheated oxygen in atmosphere?

[FreeThinker]

3 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

And how high temperatures during reentry carbon fiber can endure? Won't it erode on collisions with superheated oxygen in atmosphere?

Carbon Fiber surface should be highly resistant to heat, the problem is heat transmission and  pressurized gas tanks will rupture when heating to 2000 K.

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

I found an interesting source at https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/hydrogen-storage/

Interestingly theu mention 5 tech levels:

• Type I:
  • Metal tank (steel/aluminum)
  • Approximate maximum pressure; aluminum: 17.5 MPa (2,540 psi), steel: 20 MPa (2,900 psi)

• Type II:
  • Metal tank (aluminum) with filament windings like glass fiber/aramid or carbon fiber around the metal cylinder
  • Approximate maximum pressure; aluminum/glass: 26.3 MPa (3,810 psi), steel/carbon or aramide: 29.9 MPa (4,340 psi)
• Type III:
  • Tanks made from composite material, fiberglass/aramid or carbon fiber with a metal liner (aluminum or steel)
  • Approximate maximum pressure; aluminum/glass: 30.5 MPa (4,420 psi), aluminum/aramide: 43.8 MPa (6,350 psi), aluminium/carbon: 70 MPa (10,000 psi)
• Type IV
  • Composite tanks such as carbon fiber with a polymer liner (thermoplastic)
  • Approximate maximum pressure; plastic/carbon: 66.1 MPa (9,590 psi) and up

• Type V:
  • Composite tanks such as carbon fiber with no polymer liner needed (thermoplastic)

Edited June 28, 2016 by FreeThinker

[WaYa]

Radiators missing option to retract after extending (unless preset as a group) and the umbrella radiator causes the rocket to fall apart on the launchpad. (1.9.1 & 1.9.0)

[maranble14]

3 hours ago, WaYa said:

Radiators missing option to retract after extending (unless preset as a group) and the umbrella radiator causes the rocket to fall apart on the launchpad. (1.9.1 & 1.9.0)

Rover dude is also having an issue with his rover wheels being able to retract, so this may lend a hint as to where the problem lies

[Rushligh]

There seems to be a problem with the OMEGA reactor. It's running but it won't produce any power.

the control windows says it should be outputting 3.0GW of thermal power, but everything else stays at zero. i've tried changing fusion modes, having other stages, radiators, jump starting the reactor after shutting it off.... nothing.
 

I kinda really need the OMEGA reactor to work because frankly... i use it in just about everything.

[FreeThinker]

53 minutes ago, Rushligh said:

There seems to be a problem with the OMEGA reactor. It's running but it won't produce any power.

the control windows says it should be outputting 3.0GW of thermal power, but everything else stays at zero. i've tried changing fusion modes, having other stages, radiators, jump starting the reactor after shutting it off.... nothing.
 

I kinda really need the OMEGA reactor to work because frankly... i use it in just about everything.

Have you tried connecting it to a a thermal electric generator?

[Nnimrod]

I'm using KSPIE with all of @RoverDude and @Nertea stuff, and I'm hanging on loading warpplugin/parts/fuel tank/large fuel tank/KSPIoretank, any ideas? Deleting the part and it's assets did allow the game to load.