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KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread


FreeThinker

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If anyone is up for some "ahem" light reading on futuristic spacecraft propulsion (a lot of the kind of stuff we deal with in KSP-Interstellar)  I suggest taking a look at this book.  Do note that it costs $88 to buy a hard copy, however.

https://books.google.com/books?id=aI9QhDA4AVwC&lpg=PA385&ots=Nl9KggVmi7&dq="specific energy" ISP&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q="specific energy" ISP&f=false

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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4 hours ago, schlosrat said:

Thanks for that breakdown @FreeThinker. So far the only microwave network I've built is with the current version in a sandbox save. I've been using that to try to get the hang of it and to develop some ships. I'm waiting for the next overhaul to refine my power sat designs then I'll pick one or two to implement in my career mode game.

Will reactors be changing much in the coming overhaul? Or is it more about the transmitters and receivers and such?

Also is there any merit in trying to develop solar power sats for low kerbol orbit with microwave beamed power? I've seen a few older posts on that topic but nothing recently and am wondering if that still works effectively in the game

Solar Power Sats in Low Kerbol Orbit are useful mainly in that they don't require any additional reactor fuel.  Ever.  They will never really match the power output of a nice, large nuclear reactor close to the vessel you are beaming power to unless you build a ton of them.

You can get a solar power sat from Low Kerbin Orbit all the way to Low Kerbol Orbit with proper use of nothing but a Solar Sail and the mods allowing thrust and rotation while in time-warp though, or haul them to Low Kerbol Orbit with a reusable tug that refuels off ISRU propellants, so the strategy can be rather cost-effective in career-mode for providing moderate amounts of power over a very long period of time.  Something like an ISRU base (if you're willing to baby-sit it and time-warp: I don't remember if Microwave Beamed Power works for ISRU when a craft is unloaded...)

 

Speaking of that- what ARE your plans for the MBP overhaul @FreeThinker?  Feel free to PM me about the topic.  Also, note that I just sent you another lonnnggg PM on the theoretical aspects of thermal rocket performance in response to an old PM I never replied to.  I really do think I get carried away with those explanations sometimes...

 

Regards,

Northstar

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10 hours ago, schlosrat said:

@FreeThinker

Will reactors be changing much in the coming overhaul? Or is it more about the transmitters and receivers and such?

There will be some change, mainly in the model department, the Open Gas Core Reeactor model get's an model change, where nozzle and reactor are integrated in a single part, which looks more realsitic and prevent engine nozzle mismatching.

The Molten Salt will get it original KSPI model restored, making it a stand alone reactor again

The Quantum singularity reactor will get an Kugelblitz animated model

10 hours ago, schlosrat said:


@FreeThinker

 

Also is there any merit in trying to develop solar power sats for low kerbol orbit with microwave beamed power? I've seen a few older posts on that topic but nothing recently and am wondering if that still works effectively in the game

It should be possible, but not in microwave wavelength. You going have to transmit in much smaller wavelenghts and send and receive  it with bigger dishes, which is going to require quite a lot of effort to accomplish.

15 hours ago, Badfish said:

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly FreeThinker.  I made all my generators the same size as their reactors and turned the pumps on in the reactors, and even put a little LH2 tank with a yellow fuel line directly to the magnetic nozzle, but the engine still says 'insufficient electricity' even though I have full EC, mega joules, and charged particles with the engine at full throttle.  Is there another way to make sure fuel is getting to the engine?  I've never had a problem with that before and in the VAB Kerbal engineer says I have lots of dV.  If you or anyone else has any other ideas I'd really appreciate it, I've tried everything I can think of.

 

Edit:  Thanks for the additional info, I tried to replicate your setup with a brand new download of KSP 1.1.3 and KSP Interstellar Extended 1.9.11 but I keep getting status 'insufficient electricity'.  

screenshot0_zpslssodq4v.png

 

When I use Hyper-Edit to give infinite fuel, the status on the magnetic nozzle changes to 'nominal' and prop. requirement met goes to 100%, but the fuel flow, thrust, and specific impulse all stay at zero.   I don't know how to get my log and post it, but if you feel like checking it out I'll figure it out.

 

screenshot1_zpsh4iireey.png

 

Edit 2:  Here's the log just in case:

KSP: 1.1.3 Windows 64bit (brand new download)

Problem: No thrust/ISP on magnetic nozzle from KSP-I

Mods:    Full install of KSP-Interstellar Extended 1.9.11 from SpaceDock

from CKAN:         TweakScale v 2.2.13

                             AmpYear  1:V1.3.6.0

                             HyperEdit   1.5.2.1

                             REPOSoft Tech-Agencies      1.3.6.0

Reproduction (probably only happening to me): Magnetic nozzle attached to Large Fusion reactor attached to Thermal generator attached to liquid hydrogen tank attached to command pod with radiators

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jmiojn5f58anib/output_log.txt?dl=0

 

Thanks a lot if anyone has the time!

Not sure what is wrong, but you could try to match the diameter of the magnetic noozle with the reactor (like in the example vessel)

Oh, by the way, have you staged it? (pressed space)

Edited by FreeThinker
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13 hours ago, Northstar1989 said:

Speaking of that- what ARE your plans for the MBP overhaul @FreeThinker?  Feel free to PM me about the topic.  Also, note that I just sent you another lonnnggg PM on the theoretical aspects of thermal rocket performance in response to an old PM I never replied to.  I really do think I get carried away with those explanations sometimes...

Well the short story is takes the base KSPI Microwave Beaming Technology and extends with improved realism and gameplay.

Here are the main changes:

  • Distance efficiency calculation is replaced by a formula which is much closer to reality, based on the transmitter aperture, receiver dish diameter and wavelength size.
  • Atmospheric absorption depends on the distance and atmospheric presure a beamed power wave has to travel. This means that transmitting power straight up will be more efficient then when it is send at an angle.
  • A new type of part will be introduced which will convert Electric Power into Beamed power, which can then be transmitted by Transmitters. Initially there will be 3 flavors, diode laser, gyrotron and free electron accelerator. They initially will only allow production of a single wavelength but future version all the to have a greater choice of wavelength (possible unlocked with advances in technodes) each with different wall to beam efficiencies
  • Several new advanced design of dishes/receivers/phased array part are introduced which allow more flexibility building your beamed power network
  • Stock Solar Panels will gain the limited ability to receive Beamed power in specific wavelength, allowing them players to operate on solar technology much further from the sun
  • (planned) Solar Sail will be able to operate as Laser Sails , effectively allowing propellant less propulsion at unreasonable speeds. Technically this should allow you to catapult a probes to neighboring stars

 

 

 

 

Edited by FreeThinker
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6 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Well the short story is takes the base KSPI Microwave Beaming Technology and extends with improved realsim and gameplay.

Here are the main changes:

  • Distance efficiency calculation is replaced by a formula which is much closer to reality, based on the tranmitter aperture, receiver dish diameter and wavelenfth size.
  • Atmospheric absorbtion depends on the distance and atmospheric presure a beamed power wave has to travel. This means that trasnmitting power straight up will be more efficient then when it is send at an angle.
  • A new type of part will be introduced which will convert Electric Power into Beamed power, which can then be tranmitted by Tranmitters. Iniutialy there will be 3 flavors, laser, cyclotron and free electron accelerator. They initialy will only allow production of a single wavelength but future version all the to have a greater choice of wavelenth (possible unlocked with advances in technodes) each with different wall to beam efficiencies
  • Several new advanced desgin of dishers/receivers/phased array part are introduced which allow more flexiibility building your beamed power network
  • Stock Solar Panels will gain the limited ability to receive Beamed power in specific wavelenth, allowing them players to operate on solar technology much further from the sun
  • (planned) Solar Sail will be able to operate as Laser Sails , effectly allowing propellant less propulsion at unreasonable speeds. Technically this should allow you to catapult a probes to neighboring stars

 

 

 

 

Well the short story is takes the base KSPI Microwave Beaming Technology and extends with improved realsim and gameplay.

Here are the main changes:

  • Distance efficiency calculation is replaced by a formula which is much closer to reality, based on the tranmitter aperture, receiver dish diameter and wavelenfth size.
  • Atmospheric absorbtion depends on the distance and atmospheric presure a beamed power wave has to travel. This means that trasnmitting power straight up will be more efficient then when it is send at an angle.
  • A new type of part will be introduced which will convert Electric Power into Beamed power, which can then be tranmitted by Tranmitters. Iniutialy there will be 3 flavors, laser, cyclotron and free electron accelerator. They initialy will only allow production of a single wavelength but future version all the to have a greater choice of wavelenth (possible unlocked with advances in technodes) each with different wall to beam efficiencies
  • Several new advanced desgin of dishers/receivers/phased array part are introduced which allow more flexiibility building your beamed power network
  • Stock Solar Panels will gain the limited ability to receive Beamed power in specific wavelenth, allowing them players to operate on solar technology much further from the sun
  • (planned) Solar Sail will be able to operate as Laser Sails , effectly allowing propellant less propulsion at unreasonable speeds. Technically this should allow you to catapult a probes to neighboring stars

 

 

 

 

Well the second two points are already part of the system as-is.  At least the part about the ability to convert EC to MJ and transmit it (this is currently implemented as a patch for solar panel parts allowing them to convert excess EC to MJ, and code for the old Microwave Receivers that allowed them to sense and transmit these MJ from solar power even when unloaded, so long as the craft were in direct sunlight...)

The distance calculation currently allows for unrealistically small transmitter apertures because building ground-based infrastructure the size of a football field or larger (how large a ground-based array would be in real life) is and remains un-fun and near impossible in KSP.  I would encourage an increase to the transmitter part mass, however, to reflect that a transmitter with the same capabilities would be a bit heavier in real life...  (note that the old transmitters already mass much more than they should for their in-game size, which Fractal_UK undoubtedly did for balance reasons...)

The old transmitter parts (I haven't really seen or done much with the new part you added more recently) as developed by Fractal_UK already did the job they were intended to in a fun and reasonably balanced and realistic manner without needless complexity.

I had just assumed that the new part you added to replace the old was for visual reasons more than anything- but I don't understand why you would feel the need to go in and change the underlying code...

Fractal's system for MBP, with 2 transceiver parts (one deployable for larger aperture in a reasonable-sized part.  Note that in the original system aperture DOES matter for receiver efficiency, although it has no effect on transmitter capabilities) and one smaller dedicated receiver part worked just fine.  I wouldn't advise going and ripping it up- in fact I would suggest returning to the original transceiver parts if possible (the new part you added recently might work for a dedicated receiver- although Fractal's version had the advantage of re-using a stock antenna texture, which could lead to RAM savings if coded correctly to recognize this texture-sharing and not duplicate textures already i stock, like Stock Extension mod currently does...)

As for the new transmitter parts you suggest, the physics are completely wrong.  Microwave Beamed Power, in the wavelengths usable, is not ever produced by cyclotrons or such.  It's produced using gyrotrons, or possibly magnetrons (in a shorter wavelength), both of which are MUCH lighter, cheaper, and more compact than any known cyclotron of similar power...

Lasers aren't a bad idea- but only for use in a separate laser-sail system entirely distinct from the MBP system (although perhaps sharing the same ststem to determine if a receiver can "see" a transmitter).  They could also be used to give extra power to solar panels (and with much less power loss over distance than microwaves)- but not microwaves, which would just pass through any solar panel as the wavelengths do not match for a microwave and a photovoltaic...

Finally, atmospheric absorption already occurs.  At least it did in the MBP system as built by Fractal_UK, unless you somehow disabled this functionality in trying to add your new MBP part recently.  Didn't you ever notice that you would lose a lot more power when beaming through the atmosphere at an angle than straight up?  I used to play around with MBP all the time back in 0.23.5 up through maybe 0.90 (when KSP became too laggy for my computer to handle the additional stress of the MBP system), so I have a lot of firsthand experience with exactly this phenomenon.  Go and dig up the old parts, or Fractal_UK's last version of the original KSP-I plus the correct version of KSP (it's perfectly possible to install and run outdated versions of KSP at any time) if you don't believe me...

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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Well I understand your conservatism but know that I'm aiming for a balance which still allows you to play with KSP friendly parts and combine with more realistic beam transmit model which will feel more rewarding and make beamed power get a better balance between cold hard realism a more leisure KSP play-ability. For a designers point of view I apply the same design philosophy which I applied already to the rest of KSPI, adding more interesting realism  but not ultra realism, which makes things too complicated to implement and too difficult for players. Still for those that which to go hard core, I will offer some leaver and switches (read config settings) which they can use to make less forgiving.

3 hours ago, Northstar1989 said:

As for the new transmitter parts you suggest, the physics are completely wrong.  Microwave Beamed Power, in the wavelengths usable, is not ever produced by cyclotrons or such.  It's produced using gyrotrons, or possibly magnetrons (in a shorter wavelength), both of which are MUCH lighter, cheaper, and more compact than any known cyclotron of similar power...

Yes, I mend a gyrotron. The main idea, (which isn't mine but Eleusis La Arwall ) is to decouple the transmitter and generator which will allow you to combine a multitude of types transmitters with a multitude of beam generator. This molecularity is in line with KSPI modular design philosofy in which parts will work together in different configurations.

Edited by FreeThinker
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3 hours ago, Northstar1989 said:

Finally, atmospheric absorption already occurs.  At least it did in the MBP system as built by Fractal_UK, unless you somehow disabled this functionality in trying to add your new MBP part recently.  Didn't you ever notice that you would lose a lot more power when beaming through the atmosphere at an angle than straight up?  I used to play around with MBP all the time back in 0.23.5 up through maybe 0.90 (when KSP became too laggy for my computer to handle the additional stress of the MBP system), so I have a lot of firsthand experience with exactly this phenomenon.  Go and dig up the old parts, or Fractal_UK's last version of the original KSP-I plus the correct version of KSP (it's perfectly possible to install and run outdated versions of KSP at any time) if you don't believe me...

Well, your are simply mistaken, Atmospheric absorption was fixed (at 75%) an only the tranmitter/ receiver atmospheric pressure had any effect, angle/atmospheric distance had no effect.

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16 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

There will be some change, mainly in the model department, the Open Gas Core Reeactor model get's an model change, where nozzle and reactor are integrated in a single part, which looks more realsitic and prevent engine nozzle mismatching.

The Molten Salt will get it original KSPI model restored, making it a stand alone reactor again

The Quantum singularity reactor will get an Kugelblitz animated model

The new models sound interesting, but I'm a bit concerned when you say the molten salt will be a stand alone reactor again. I appears that it includes a built in power converter now. Is that feature going to be removed? If so won't that break things for anyone who's made use of that feature?

Also I've got a question about the QSR. Is it really supposed to cost 90M? That seems like it's off by an order of magnitude. How could anyone ever afford one in a career game? It would be far more economical to just put up a bunch of MCF reactors.

Thanks

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5 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@FreeThinker Hey I've implemented an atmospheric absorption model here, in case it may help. It takes into consideration the density and the path length inside the atmosphere volume.

Interesting formula, but the problem is that it appears only suitable for space to surface calculation, I need a formula that also works for surface to surface

5 hours ago, schlosrat said:

The new models sound interesting, but I'm a bit concerned when you say the molten salt will be a stand alone reactor again. I appears that it includes a built in power converter now. Is that feature going to be removed? If so won't that break things for anyone who's made use of that feature?

Also I've got a question about the QSR. Is it really supposed to cost 90M? That seems like it's off by an order of magnitude. How could anyone ever afford one in a career game? It would be far more economical to just put up a bunch of MCF reactors.

Thanks

You are correct that the build in power converted will be removed, but existing saves will not be broken because I will not remove the old part, instead I will merely make it unavailable in the VAB for new vessels.  Note yu can still create vessel with a with the integrated part model if you download Roverdude  USI Reactors separately, a MM script will replase the standard stock partmodules by KSPI part modules.

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14 hours ago, Northstar1989 said:

Well the second two points are already part of the system as-is.  At least the part about the ability to convert EC to MJ and transmit it (this is currently implemented as a patch for solar panel parts allowing them to convert excess EC to MJ, and code for the old Microwave Receivers that allowed them to sense and transmit these MJ from solar power even when unloaded, so long as the craft were in direct sunlight...)

Yes I know it is able to convert solar panel power and convert it beam power and transmit it, but what I mend is a separate step between power and a wave single traveling between vessels. For example, Electric power (for either MJ or Solar EC) is converted by a Diode Laser  Generator into a laser beam, which is then relayed by mirrors to Laser compatible Dish which will increase the laser signal aperture, maximizing it;s effective range.

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49 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Interesting formula, but the problem is that it appears only suitable for space to surface calculation, I need a formula that also works for surface to surface

Surface to surface has not so much sense in KSP. Stock planets are so small than the curvature makes any ground to ground energy transmission useless. MKS tried something like that, but limited to one or two km, suitable only for ground bases.

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46 minutes ago, Nansuchao said:

Surface to surface has not so much sense in KSP. Stock planets are so small than the curvature makes any ground to ground energy transmission useless. MKS tried something like that, but limited to one or two km, suitable only for ground bases.

Not much sense? I hope you do realize surface launches and flying airplanes  also count as atmosphere to atmosphere transmission, which distances can easily surpass 2 km

MKS power transmission is mend for power distribution on a base, not for launching rockets into orbit.

Edited by FreeThinker
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1 hour ago, FreeThinker said:

Not much sense? I hope you do realize surface launches and flying airplanes  also count as atmosphere to atmosphere transmission, which distances can easily surpass 2 km

MKS power transmission is mend for power distribution on a base, not for launching rockets into orbit.

Ok, so I misunderstood. I thought you meant ground to ground. For rocket launch it has much more sense.

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On 9/9/2016 at 5:19 AM, FreeThinker said:

Not sure what is wrong, but you could try to match the diameter of the magnetic noozle with the reactor (like in the example vessel)

Oh, by the way, have you staged it? (pressed space)

No luck @FreeThinker  , Thanks a lot for your help though, guess I'll stick with the Vista

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I'm a bit confused by the molten salt reactor in career mode. I can't seem to switch it to Thorium in career mode. In sandbox, UF4 to TF4 and back all day long. In career, the option simply doesn't exist (neither in the VAB/SPH nor during spacewalks). Is there a specific science node I need to unlock in order to switch molten salt reactors to Thorium? Am I doing something wrong? Is it broke? Do I pack up shop and move the mining rig to the other side of the planet to mine Uranium instead?

 

Nevermind, found it! One must first unlock nuclear fuel systems before fuel swap is allowed in career mode. doh!

Edited by jhook777
oops
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On 9/10/2016 at 9:08 PM, jhook777 said:

I'm a bit confused by the molten salt reactor in career mode. I can't seem to switch it to Thorium in career mode. In sandbox, UF4 to TF4 and back all day long. In career, the option simply doesn't exist (neither in the VAB/SPH nor during spacewalks). Is there a specific science node I need to unlock in order to switch molten salt reactors to Thorium? Am I doing something wrong? Is it broke? Do I pack up shop and move the mining rig to the other side of the planet to mine Uranium instead?

 

Nevermind, found it! One must first unlock nuclear fuel systems before fuel swap is allowed in career mode. doh!

There's a lot of features in KSPIE parts that need to be unlocked.  ATILLA engines can't operate in atmospheric mode until you unlock a fairly high tech node either, which stumped me at first.  Also, antimatter reactors are not nearly as powerful when you first unlock them as they are after you've toppled the tree.

@FreeThinker please tell me if I missed something here but I've either found a bug, or it's a feature which actually makes quite a bit of sense.

1. VTOL spaceplane using ATILLA thrusters, plasma core antimatter reactors, atmospheric mode, Davon throttle control systems and Diazo's vertical velocity controller (highly recommend these mods for VTOL spaceplanes btw)...
2. Take off at 2 m/s vertical speed, get up to about 100m AGL, zero vertical velocity
3. Watch wasteheat build up in radiators
4. After the craft gets hot enough, the thrust starts declining until it can't maintain altitude even at full throttle (hopefully you've left the gear down, cuz it's going to hit the runway fairly hard)
5. Doesn't happen if you use hydrazine fuel instead of IntakeAtm, but that's because using hydrazine generates less heat and doesn't hit the heat threshhold

I could swear this didn't used to happen; if it's a feature, bravo, this is pretty cool, and if you add more radiators to the craft, it *can* maintain hover indefinitely, as you'd expect.
If this is a bug, please figure out why it's happening and keep it there as a feature :)

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Yes it's a  key feature of electric engines, maximum output is related to propellant and engine efficiency and engine overheating. These electric engines use super conductors to generate powerful magnetic field which needs to be kept cool

Edited by FreeThinker
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Hello, just one short question, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but how big is heat->electricity->beamed electricity penalty (losses)? Just for fun (I don't use beamed power) I tried combination of 3,75 m inertial fusion reactor, charged particles generator and big (unfolding) transceiver on the ground. Total heat is about 120 GW, conversion to electricity is let's say 50% (I think it's 80%, but nevermind) so in "pure" electricity it should be about 50-60 GW, but transceiver beams only 16 GW? And it heats up very fast... Is it possible that I lost about 80% of energy in conversions? If I launch it in orbit will it beam more?    

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Well currently the Microwave Rectenna and any other microwave transmisser has a flat 75% atmosphere and flat 75% receive efficiency, this will be significantly lower in the next release at the expanse of effective range. Microwave transmission is practically only effective in the atmosphere and low Earth/Kerbin Orbit. Microwave beamed It is most suitable for vertical SSTO Launches and electrical atmospheric vessels.

Longer ranges (GEO / Mun / MinMus) require Infrared wavelength and in order to reach nearby planets UV Laser is more practical. The increase in range will be at the expanse of transmit / atmospheric and receive efficiency in converting power to beam and beam back to power. Infrared and Microwave power can both also directly power Thermal Engine,either for direct propulsion or for thermal electric power production .

Edited by FreeThinker
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aoxyDeV.jpg

12 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

75% atmosphere and flat 75% receive efficiency

So this is OK? Now it's even worst than last night... This is a bit older version of KSPI for 1.04 version of KSP. What is "input power", and why is it "offline"? If this all is correct, than it doesn't pay off... especially in career mode, all of this together costs 750 000-ish without the launch expenses... and how to keep transmitter cool? It keeps getting hot really fast... like it doesn't "see" these large radiators... 

Just tried it in sandbox... same thing...

Edited by NeverEnoughFuel!!
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22 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Longer ranges (GEO / Mun / MinMus) require Infrared wavelength and in order to reach nearby planets UV Laser is more practical.

Do you plan to implement the lasers as weapons in order to make a death star? :D

 

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18 hours ago, NeverEnoughFuel!! said:

aoxyDeV.jpg

So this is OK? Now it's even worst than last night... This is a bit older version of KSPI for 1.04 version of KSP. What is "input power", and why is it "offline"? If this all is correct, than it doesn't pay off... especially in career mode, all of this together costs 750 000-ish without the launch expenses... and how to keep transmitter cool? It keeps getting hot really fast... like it doesn't "see" these large radiators... 

Just tried it in sandbox... same thing...

You are not looking correctly, notice the field Beamed power, it sais 7.549 GW, which appears to be correct because you need the remaining 0.915 to keep the Fusion Reactor active. Only the receiver if offline, which is correctly behavior because it can only receiver or transmit. Notice that in future version, this part is not suitable for transmitting on the surface, it needs to be able to pivot to have this ability

Edited by FreeThinker
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For anyone interested, I have just uploaded a Alpha version of KSPI compiled against KSP 1.2 prerelease which can be downloaded from here.

The package contains a KSP 1.2 compatbile version of Tweakscale and Toolkit (IFS needs to be downloaded seperately).

Noe that any MM script require an updated version of Module Manager

I would really appreciate any help in finding any new or existing bugs

Changelog

* Compiled against KSP 1.2 Prerelease

* Overhauled Beamed Power Network

* Added several new beamed power transmitter and receivers

* Gigantor XL Solar Array can receive beamed power

* Replaced Gas Core with Integrated Model

* Restored Molten Salt Reactor model and functionality

Edited by FreeThinker
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