Mars Colonization Discussion Thread

PB666 · November 10, 2017

Let me help you then @DAL59

The Martian surface gets 43% of the light than received from Earth. To generate a 24 kilowatt of power per day on Mars (assuming 10 hours of usable sunlight) at 30% panel efficiency (1.444 kw/panel-day) you need 16 one meter^2 panels.

However because the latitude is 70' at this site you either need 45 panels or to space the panels out Over > 45 square meters. Mars tilt relative to its trip around the sun is 25.19 ' which means minimally this site goes dark tor for several months per year and has no solar power at all. 90-70 = 20 degrees. The difference is 5.19'. Comparable sites on Earth (Resolute, Canada) have about 3 mounts of darkness (1/4th of a year). 0.25 Martian Years is about almost half a years, For the purpose of solar power generation though it would be closer to 7 months without power. In the summer 4 months you would have power 24/7.

Thus you probably could not have a permanent settlement on this site without some kind alternative power generation. Remembering that Mars does not have O2 shipping oxygen and hydrogen to power generators would be excessively expensive (since the amount of oxygen required is 2 to 5 times that of whatever fuel you drop).

At least 6 months a year this site would need a Nuclear power generator.

DAL59 · November 10, 2017

There is plenty of ice and soil moisture and underground glaciers other than at the ice caps.

tater · November 10, 2017

3 hours ago, Diche Bach said:

Interesting! I had no idea Professor O'Neill was quite such a quack!

The problem is rotational instability. Long cylinders are not stable rotating about the long axis, and they end up tumbling. The maximum length of a cylinder that is rotationally stable is about 2.5*radius.

DAL59 · November 10, 2017

That could be solved with reaction wheels, or a rotating drum within a stationary cylinder(which would probably happen anyway.)

PB666 · November 10, 2017

4 hours ago, DAL59 said:

No! It is a perfectly legitimate design and is structurally possible as long as it is less than a dozen kilometers in radius. Also, nothing would vibrate if they inside a cylinder rotating at a constant speed. Inertia.

You forget about space-time. The inside of the centirfugal space craft is entirely in a non-inertial reference frame. Anytime you use the word gravity or artificial gravity for an object in stasis with a root object you are talking about non-intertial reference frames. E = hv, thus there is energy within the cycling of forces even small forces of gravity that act against the yield strength of objects.

The design is not only silly but its wasteful. The thickness of the wall of a cylinder under constant pressure increases linearly with the diameter of the cylinder, it eventually reaches the point were no amount of material can keep the structure from blowing up because the material itself under centripetal force astronomically adds to the pressure.

dV/dr = f(r²) therefore the increase in wall thickness . Given the strongest construction materials a cylinder of 10km radius and 50km length would need 2.7 trillion kg of carbon fiber casing. A cylinder with half the internal diameter (and half the cylindrical inner surface area] would use 1/4th the material. A cylinder with 10th (1 km diameter) would use 1/100th the material. If we set the limit at 1,000,000 kg (1 / 2.7000,000 the material) of material and set the length of the cylinder at 10 times the radius, then the cylinder of length 57 meters in radius (572 meters in length) [internal surface area 194801 meters at top of substrate] of will have a wall thickness of 0.0028 meters thick. Its surface area to weight. The weight to surface area is 5.2 kg/meter of wall mass. For the larger (10km radius x 50 km length) its 850 kg/ meter of surface area.

Again, what source of material do you know of in space that can produce 2.7 trillion kg of carbon fiber (That is 103 million F9 launches). Sure I can set a practical limit for carbon fibering a hull and spinning the inside surface at g force, but there isn't a serious space engineer that would have propose such an incredibly wasteful monstrosity.

Just go to spaceX or BlueO and propose building at trillion ton space habitat .. . . . .I wanna see the look on their faces.

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

There is plenty of ice and soil moisture and underground glaciers other than at the ice caps.

Here again another hand waving argument.

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

That could be solved with reaction wheels, or a rotating drum within a stationary cylinder(which would probably happen anyway.)

Reaction wheels do not work in real life like KSP. In addition something rotating in orbit about a point mass has one edge that has a higher outward force than the other side. As a consequence it wants to flip over. In real life reaction wheels in space need RCS or ion drives otherwise they spin to max and stop working.

I fear that Dal wants to play whack-a-mole with us. When we defeat one of his arguments he whips out another and we whack it down. None of his arguments are particularly strong in their merits. I believe he equates quantity of argument with quality.

Edited November 10, 2017 by PB666

Bill Phil · November 10, 2017

10 hours ago, PB666 said:

What you showed [VIdeo of Cylindrical Habitat] is physically not possible based on current materials science. A cyclinder even 1/10th that diameter (e.g. babylon 5-ish) is still difficult, I would argue. A larger cylinder is a larger target and asteroids traveling around at 20-70 km/second, the shielding on such an object would have to be massive.

Rama may be, but Island 3 is explicitly designed with 1970s materials. I use "designed" lightly, however. The shielding is already massive, representing 95%, or more, of the total mass (which is about 10 billion tonnes or so, for an Island 3 cylinder pair).

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The third problem is that your source of energy would be entirely artificial since, 1. The ends hold up the floor and glass is not structural, but sheathing. 2. The length of the structure either has the light always coming in at an oblique angle or a reflector (not shown). The optimal structure is a much thinner disk where the light come in the center as is reflected to the sides by a mirror. This is much thinner and allows more colonies and less risk of a catastrophic failuer for each colony.

Rama is a bad example of an actual colony design. It's an ark-ship, essentially, but an actual colony would be different. The Island 3 design from O'Neill includes reflectors, as well as structural support through the windows (the beams would be just small enough that the average person couldn't see them).

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The Mass required to build just one of these and provide ambient non-inertial reference frame comparable to earth's surface is well beyond any serious proposal.

The mass of an Island 3 type colony would be around 10 billion tonnes. Most of which is shielding, IE: whatever you want it to be. It would likely take a decade, at least, to construct, and that's with a century or so of building the infrastructure to build colonies. Even now we produce billions of tonnes of steel and other materials per year. Give it a century or so, and there's plenty of reason to expect much higher output (we produced half as much steel in the 1970s).

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You must find a source of mass in space first and a means of converting mass into the basic elements required to build such structures.

The Moon. Asteroids. The Moon has iron, silicon, aluminum, oxygen... Smelt the oxides, extract the oxygen, use it for whatever you want.

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We can think of it like this, The earth, the place you stand, coalesced over 5 billion years, the heat it gained during coalescence has been evolving also for 5 billion years, energy that has been lost to the earth. To create earth like environment in space you have to impart all the ambient (non-radioactive, no solar hv) heat that the Earth has lost during the 5 billion years.

I don't really understand this. To create an Earth-like environment you need a few specific things:

Some kind of gravity

Radiation shielding

Breathing gas

Water

Soil

And energy

As well as a number of smaller things for the particular environment being simulated.

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Also, your gravity, is not what you think, If you drop a ball its on a sub-orbital trajectory. If the earth is not there (but somehow the energy is) it go into a orbit about that point a barycenter between the earth and the moon. If we take the briefest moment of motion you are in orbit, at the end of that moment the Earth steps in to force you back to where you were. It is the stacks of matter that are pushing you up. While it does not appear to be the case its a dynamic equilibrium that occurs between all objects on the surface in motion, the appearance of immobility is due to the way relative motion appears. An example of this dynamic are objects floating on the tides as the tides role around the Earth. If you read the articles on the Cartesian coordinate system they point out the Z coordinates for all objects relative to the earths true center are always changing at least twice a day sometimes 4 times a day the motion changes. While the structural aspects of the Earth are able to resist most change, they cannot resist all changes. Because the motion is very slow its all but unnoticeable. This change is very minor with small spherical and compact objects in space that try to maintain a non-inertial g-force on the surface, but as objects get more massive these shifts in force become more apparent. If you have an extremely massive structure and you spin it to simulate earths surface gravity the sun (or other local bodies) will cause that structure to begin pulsing. IN order to prevent damage that structure would need to be heavily braced from its center.

Are you referring to tides? Yes, tidal forces over a large colony structure would be a major consideration.

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Lets imagine a cylinder 10 km across. To achieve 9.8 meters per second you need a velocity of W2R. 0.98/1000 = w² . omega = 1/31.6 radians per second (About 2 degrees). The entire structure making a revolution in about 3 minutes. If you were inside the structure you literally would hear it creeking and cracking, houses would be in a constant settling. Nails would not be used because they would eventually be pulled apart.

I'd much rather use the linear formulas, but I guess that's just my preference.

If you were inside the structure you might not feel or hear anything, depending on its design. There are innumerable challenges to building a space colony in orbit, yes. However, that is a matter of engineering. The truly difficult aspect would be developing the infrastructure to build the colonies. That would be a herculean task. Building the colony itself? Maybe not so much. The vast majority of the mass is shielding, so only a small percentage needs to be heavily processed. Given the fact that, if this ever occurs, it will be in the future, there will likely be a high degree of automation in the construction of such a colony as well. A colony could be built with no human intervention whatsoever.

I suggest giving this paper a read:

http://www.nss.org/settlement/physicstoday.htm

Also, I suggest perusing Al Globus's site regarding the matter:

http://space.alglobus.net/

It's certainly not perfect, but some good reads can be found in there.

kerbiloid · November 10, 2017

9 hours ago, tater said:

Robots would likely be better at colonizing Mars than people, actually.

At colonizing Earth, too! And not just colonizing.

Spoiler

9 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Suitport is the head because no saltwater suit gets into the cabins or even behind the companionway. You'll never have dry clothes again otherwise.

They were intuitively feeling the need to try this. Just didn't have the required equipment.

Spoiler

goldenfigurehead+01.jpg

9 hours ago, tater said:

Zubrin is talking about a flags and footprints mission. A few handfuls of people in a space radiation environment for ~2 years each. Not colonists living in that environment for the rest of their (probably short) lives.

I.e. for ~2 years in both cases. Nothing looks wrong with Zubrin's estimations.

9 hours ago, DAL59 said:

He has a phd in nuclear engineering

So, he knows how to cause radiation damages, but not necessary how to heal them.
Still no biological object has been exposed for years outside the magnetic cocoon.
So, can know the composition of the radiation, probably could reproduce it in a laboratory. But not zero-G + this exact radiation cocktail (including the omnidirectional flow of high-energy particles and solar protons) at once.

9 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Only a few people have been outside of earth's magnetic field for a few days.

And tortoises! On Zond-5. They were the first, before the humans. Humans were just trying to overtake them.
(Worms and insects too, but they are puny, who cares).

3 hours ago, tater said:

The maximum length of a cylinder that is rotationally stable is about 2.5*radius.

This gives us a nice barrel with length~=diameter, i.e with the least possible area and the hull mass.

3 hours ago, DAL59 said:

That could be solved with reaction wheels, or a rotating drum within a stationary cylinder(which would probably happen anyway.)

Reaction wheels with mass comparable to the whole cylinder mass is unlikely an option.
More likely there would be two counter-rotating cylinder halves.
But this still requires huge bearings. And any problem with the bearings (doesn't matter, with halves or reaction wheels) would cause a rapid rotation stop and mechanical crash. so is additionally unlikely an option.
The cylinder should rotate as a solid body, without the bearings.

2 hours ago, PB666 said:

The thickness of the wall of a cylinder under constant pressure increases linearly with the diameter of the cylinder, it eventually reaches the point were no amount of material can keep the structure from blowing up because the material itself under centripetal force astronomically adds to the pressure.

So, the top value of the hull thickness should match the radio- and meteorite- protection needs.
If, say. take 1 m thick steel hull (enough to protect from gamma-rays and 400 mm artillery shells) with 1 m thick lightweight repairable outer layer (against meteorites) and 1 m inner plastic layer (against radiation), and safety factor 2, then it should withstand atmospheric pressure (100 kPa) at the curvature radius up to 1 km.

So, a reasonable size of O'Neil-like cylinder is several hundred meters in length and diameter. Say, 500x500 m, rotation radius~250 m.
Not enough for a self-reproducing colony, but ideal for a permanent base supporting the teleoperated infrastructure, with up to several thousand population inside.
Bonus: no drama, people just get there for several years and return back to the Earth, keeping happy and easy.

An obvious source of the metal: Phobos.

Huge O'Neilish structures would be in order only as:
1) Temporary vaults for millions in case of an Earth cataclysme like an asteroid or supervolcano. To wait several years and return back to repair the civilization.
2) Permanent extraplanetary super-protected vault with kilometer-thick walls for post-humans, whatever they be: a small pack of meditating humanoids in shining white clothes, a black supercomputer glimmering in darkness, or a bodyless overmind.

An obvious source of the metal: an iron asteroid eaten from inside and converted to a bubble of metal foam with many meter thick iron membranes.inside.

Btw, an O'Neil cylinder anyway requires several satellite stations to avoid keeping dangerous materials and equipment inside the habitat, and one of them as a spaceport (i.e. let the heavy interplanetary ship ~~crash into~~ dock to a satellite, then fly to the Cylinder by a lightweight shuttle). This, in turn, eliminates the problem of dockin: just make a lightweight docking cup and start rotate it on demand.

Edited November 10, 2017 by kerbiloid

PB666 · November 10, 2017

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

At colonizing Earth, too! And not just colonizing.

Reveal hidden contents

They were intuitively feeling the need to try this. Just didn't have the required equipment.

Reveal hidden contents

I.e. for ~2 years in both cases. Nothing looks wrong with Zubrin's estimations.

So, he knows how to cause radiation damages, but not necessary how to heal them.
Still no biological object has been exposed for years outside the magnetic cocoon.
So, can know the composition of the radiation, probably could reproduce it in a laboratory. But not zero-G + this exact radiation cocktail (including the omnidirectional flow of high-energy particles and solar protons) at once.

And tortoises! On Zond-5. They were the first, before the humans. Humans were just trying to overtake them.
(Worms and insects too, but they are puny, who cares).

This gives us a nice barrel with length~=diameter, i.e with the least possible area and the hull mass.

Reaction wheels with mass comparable to the whole cylinder mass is unlikely an option.
More likely there would be two counter-rotating cylinder halves.
But this still requires huge bearings. And any problem with the bearings (doesn't matter, with halves or reaction wheels) would cause a rapid rotation stop and mechanical crash. so is additionally unlikely an option.
The cylinder should rotate as a solid body, without the bearings.

So, the top value of the hull thickness should match the radio- and meteorite- protection needs.
If, say. take 1 m thick steel hull (enough to protect from gamma-rays and 400 mm artillery shells) with 1 m thick lightweight repairable outer layer (against meteorites) and 1 m inner plastic layer (against radiation), and safety factor 2, then it should withstand atmospheric pressure (100 kPa) at the curvature radius up to 1 km.

So, a reasonable size of O'Neil-like cylinder is several hundred meters in length and diameter. Say, 500x500 m, rotation radius~250 m.
Not enough for a self-reproducing colony, but ideal for a permanent base supporting the teleoperated infrastructure, with up to several thousand population inside.
Bonus: no drama, people just get there for several years and return back to the Earth, keeping happy and easy.

An obvious source of the metal: Phobos.

Huge O'Neilish structures would be in order only as:
1) Temporary vaults for millions in case of an Earth cataclysme like an asteroid or supervolcano. To wait several years and return back to repair the civilization.
2) Permanent extraplanetary super-protected vault with kilometer-thick walls for post-humans, whatever they be: a small pack of meditating humanoids in shining white clothes, a black supercomputer glimmering in darkness, or a bodyless overmind.

An obvious source of the metal: an iron asteroid eaten from inside and converted to a bubble of metal foam with many meter thick iron membranes.inside.

Btw, an O'Neil cylinder anyway requires several satellite stations to avoid keeping dangerous materials and equipment inside the habitat, and one of them as a spaceport (i.e. let the heavy interplanetary ship ~~crash into~~ dock to a satellite, then fly to the Cylinder by a lightweight shuttle). This, in turn, eliminates the problem of dockin: just make a lightweight docking cup and start rotate it on demand.

Lets say your are in earths orbital path at L3 so that you have the same amount of light density as earth. A spinning disk as has been presented would have a wall area of radius * 2 * pi * height. If you have a transparent central opening by which light feeds into the structure for growth (although now-a-days the choice would be LEDs) and that opening is half the radius of the disk with a cone shape reflector (0.25 * radius^2 * pi) And you want say 1/4 the sunlight density (24 hours per day). The height should be approximately 1/8th of radius.

The use of Iron as case markedly limits the build size, thickness needs to be 5 to 10 times thicker than carbon fiber. The other problem with Iron structures in soil is corrosion, if you place something like that in space the intent is that it will last 1000 years or more. It does not need to be carbon fiber but its does need to be something resilient to the moisture/acidity/oxides in soil. Rate of oxidation increases as the inverse function of pH. The other thing about carbonfiber. You can place the device on a spindle and spin it laying out the fiber, for something like a km size disk welding Iron plating several feet thick is nearly impossible.

PB666 · November 10, 2017

3 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

Rama may be, but Island 3 is explicitly designed with 1970s materials. I use "designed" lightly, however. The shielding is already massive, representing 95%, or more, of the total mass (which is about 10 billion tonnes or so, for an Island 3 cylinder pair).

Rama is a bad example of an actual colony design. It's an ark-ship, essentially, but an actual colony would be different. The Island 3 design from O'Neill includes reflectors, as well as structural support through the windows (the beams would be just small enough that the average person couldn't see them).

The mass of an Island 3 type colony would be around 10 billion tonnes. Most of which is shielding, IE: whatever you want it to be. It would likely take a decade, at least, to construct, and that's with a century or so of building the infrastructure to build colonies. Even now we produce billions of tonnes of steel and other materials per year. Give it a century or so, and there's plenty of reason to expect much higher output (we produced half as much steel in the 1970s).

The Moon. Asteroids. The Moon has iron, silicon, aluminum, oxygen... Smelt the oxides, extract the oxygen, use it for whatever you want.

I don't really understand this. To create an Earth-like environment you need a few specific things:

Some kind of gravity

Radiation shielding

Breathing gas

Water

Soil

And energy

As well as a number of smaller things for the particular environment being simulated.

Are you referring to tides? Yes, tidal forces over a large colony structure would be a major consideration.

I'd much rather use the linear formulas, but I guess that's just my preference.

If you were inside the structure you might not feel or hear anything, depending on its design. There are innumerable challenges to building a space colony in orbit, yes. However, that is a matter of engineering. The truly difficult aspect would be developing the infrastructure to build the colonies. That would be a herculean task. Building the colony itself? Maybe not so much. The vast majority of the mass is shielding, so only a small percentage needs to be heavily processed. Given the fact that, if this ever occurs, it will be in the future, there will likely be a high degree of automation in the construction of such a colony as well. A colony could be built with no human intervention whatsoever.

I suggest giving this paper a read:

http://www.nss.org/settlement/physicstoday.htm

Also, I suggest perusing Al Globus's site regarding the matter:

http://space.alglobus.net/

It's certainly not perfect, but some good reads can be found in there.

Tidal forces exist not only where there is water but where there is inertia. The ground is less malleable and slower to respond than water but it is none the less responding.

My problem with presenting concepts as facts is they almost never get their basic facts correct. There is much more that goes into making such structures than what immediately meets the eye.

For example, an Iron clad structure a km across, how do you weld such a beast together in space. Remember that the first SS design was rejected because is required a prohibited number of space walks. Welding a structure like this together would have the same problem in spades. Of course now you have robots. But the problem is even a robot would have difficulty on the thickness of some of the welds.

My point about the formation of the earth, when you start talking about putting celestial body magnitudes in space your are talking about heat of formation energies on the celestial scale . . . . .where is the freaking power supply to do this? This keeps coming up for everything, before you tell me something is doable, tell me where you got the power to do it from. If you say well we have to wait 20 years for fusion power, I'll accept that but tell me how much power and how heavy the reactor is going to be. I'm really tired of people making god-mode arguments about power. To achieve 5000 cubic meters of iron from an asteroid you need 20-25 MJ/kg. At 5000 kg per cubi meter this would require 625 terraJoules of power over a year ~20MW of power (50,000 sq.meter of solar panels). This is not the only power problem but a major one.

Of course size has its benefits, but compromises have to be made. The first of which is that the size of the walls and the internal structures are going to be a function of reducing the amount of required material for a variety of reasons. For example if you can make 1 device of growable area, you can make 4 if each has half the growable area. . . . . . .

Im not against building such things in space, but lets be reasonable in presentation of concepts, moon sized 'ark-ships' with earth like gravity are not feasible. The second thing is that plants don't really need a g of gravity, their needs are driven by light, its humans that need the gravity. So why would you stress a whole ship at 1 g when you can have a smaller cylinder inside reserved simply for satisfying human and animal needs. By reducing the rate of pressure vessel spinning you reduce the needed amount of material for the pressure well and you reduce the e=hv effects of spinning something in curved space-time. To support a human you need to have roughly 100 times the biomass of plants, its several 100 meters per human. Where as for humans you only need 30 or so meters, by reducing the area devoted for human survival you greatly reduce the mass required. This is also beneficial to the humans because they are on the very inside of the ship and all the walls and are least exposed to radiation (except when farming).

kerbiloid · November 10, 2017

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

Lets say your are in earths orbital path at L3 so that you have the same amount of light density as earth. A spinning disk as has been presented would have a wall area of radius * 2 * pi * height. If you have a transparent central opening by which light feeds into the structure for growth (although now-a-days the choice would be LEDs) and that opening is half the radius of the disk with a cone shape reflector (0.25 * radius^2 * pi) And you want say 1/4 the sunlight density (24 hours per day).

I've never considered the solar light as an energy source for that stuff, as well as huge glass windows like in the O'Neil project.
Only nukes, only hardcore. Even Mir and ISS have to look like a flat piece of paper to have enough big area/volume ratio. For >1000 t stations solar panels look ridiculous.
Light is for light ones.

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

The use of Iron as case markedly limits the build size, thickness needs to be 5 to 10 times thicker than carbon fiber.

The use of iron allows to build as much big dumb hulls as you need wherever you want.
Also the iron is a natural protection against X- and gamma rays. About 3 cm decreases the dose 2 times.
(Civil defense formula tells that one-half layer, cm = 23/density for a nuclear explosion, 13/density for a radioactive fallout, where density g/cm³.)

Let's suppose the external dose, say, ~2 mSv/day , so 0.7 Sv/year (and presume that galactic gamma-rays make significant contribution into it).
The upper limit for civilians is 0.5 roentgen/year (i.e. ~5 mGr/year, for gamma ~5 mSv/year).
The upper limit for nuclear facilities personnel is 5 roentgen/year, 10 times greater. I.e. 50 mSv/year.
So, we have to decrease the dose 0.7/0.005..0.05 = 14..140 times. For the iron this means ~42..420 cm thick hull.
If the hull is 1 meter thick, it meets the requirements for the nuclear facilities personnel.
So, the personnel can spend on this base several years without significant harm and then return to the Earth for preventive reabilitation.

If this settlement orbits near Mars, we can presume that the shift duration would be, say, two Martian Hohmann durations = 2 x 500..700 days = 1000..1400 days = 3.3..3.8 years. I.e. they can meet and send back 2 slow-moving cargo ships.
Plus ~0.7 years to get there and back. I.e. 4..4.5 years per shift.
So, we can presume that a 1 m thick iron hull means 5-years contracts. According to common sense, this means either "2x5 years in Martian orbital cylinder + retired for health" or "5 year shift + 5 year vacation + 5 year shift + retired for age", whatever they choose.

A carbon hull still requires either several meters of carbon or a meter of iron as a protective layer.

What I mean is:

Spoiler

TIG-Welder-Reviews-2015%E2%80%99s-Best-T

Split the Phobos dust into metal powder (heat up to 20000 K and separate with magnetic field), 3d-print lego bricks from these powders, deliver them to orbit, stick them one into another and weld the edges.
TechLevel of gaseous fission reactor or early fusion reactor. Anyway requires them as an energy source.

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

The other problem with Iron structures in soil is corrosion, if you place something like that in space the intent is that it will last 1000 years or more. It does not need to be carbon fiber but its does need to be something resilient to the moisture/acidity/oxides in soil. Rate of oxidation increases as the inverse function of pH.

Mostly I meant an orbital base, where the chemical corrosion is negligible.
But I would not bet on carbon structures for millenia lasting structures, as we yet can't see anything ancient and carbon, except the imprints in the coal.

I would bet on good, old classics: pyramides. They are made of just sandstone, but look nice for millenia. I would bet on SiO₂ + "metallic ceramics" combinations.

If I were an ET, I would just cut the natural stones and build auxilliary buildings putting them one onto another. Like a quickly assembled blindage hut, but made of stones.
Wait, oh ...

Edited November 10, 2017 by kerbiloid

DAL59 · November 10, 2017

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

More likely there would be two counter-rotating cylinder halves.

That's a good idea. Spacecraft with large populations and the need for gravity should have 2 contra rotating tori, otherwise it gets even harder to turn.

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

its several 100 meters per human.

You could use vertical farms and hydroponics.

7 hours ago, PB666 said:

8 hours ago, DAL59 said:

There is plenty of ice and soil moisture and underground glaciers other than at the ice caps.

Here again another hand waving argument.

Why? There actually is water in the soil.

Green Baron · November 10, 2017

If only things where so easy :-)

There's an ocean full of water on earth. You can't drink it. You can hardly gain enough for one person by evaporation at sea level in an atmosphere as thick & thirsty as earth's. Morning thaw must come to the rescue in humid climates if you have something to collect it, but it isn't always there when you need it. Shipwrecked can and do actually die of thirst surrounded by slightly (3% !) salted water. Now take soil that has 3% water. Higher concentrations are suspected i think, but somebody or something should actually take a look as to the wheres and hows. Btw., there is plenty of water below the earth's deserts, yet nobody lives there and at the fringes, where some do live, they pump until the ground water level gets out of reach. To wash the cars, those i... forget it :-)

Forget evaporation on Mars, you'd need something like osmosis to produce water (see: watermaker for ships), which in the same turn might help parting with some of the bad stuff. But it needs a lot of electricity and, despite your claims, it might and probably is just not enough for housekeeping and these things are very maintenance intensive. I would say unsuited for a distant planet. But don't cite me left handed :-))

PB666 · November 10, 2017

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

That's a good idea. Spacecraft with large populations and the need for gravity should have 2 contra rotating tori, otherwise it gets even harder to turn.

You could use vertical farms and hydroponics.

Why? There actually is water in the soil.

Yes and there are glaciers in the southern hemisphere of this planet. The _random_ probability of you finding one someplace useful for all other reasons is next to zero.
You seem to like to confuse the idea of possibility with probability. Probably anywhere that has suitable energy source is bone-dry. There is a possibility that there are places that have subsurface brine and diurnal sunlight exposure all year long. That does not mean they are suitable for colonization in the same way that building a colony on the side of a steep mountain glacier in Peru is a suitable place to build a colony.

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

I've never considered the solar light as an energy source for that stuff, as well as huge glass windows like in the O'Neil project.
Only nukes, only hardcore. Even Mir and ISS have to look like a flat piece of paper to have enough big area/volume ratio. For >1000 t stations solar panels look ridiculous.
Light is for light ones.

The use of iron allows to build as much big dumb hulls as you need wherever you want.
Also the iron is a natural protection against X- and gamma rays. About 3 cm decreases the dose 2 times.
(Civil defense formula tells that one-half layer, cm = 23/density for a nuclear explosion, 13/density for a radioactive fallout, where density g/cm³.)

Let's suppose the external dose, say, ~2 mSv/day , so 0.7 Sv/year (and presume that galactic gamma-rays make significant contribution into it).
The upper limit for civilians is 0.5 roentgen/year (i.e. ~5 mGr/year, for gamma ~5 mSv/year).
The upper limit for nuclear facilities personnel is 5 roentgen/year, 10 times greater. I.e. 50 mSv/year.
So, we have to decrease the dose 0.7/0.005..0.05 = 14..140 times. For the iron this means ~42..420 cm thick hull.
If the hull is 1 meter thick, it meets the requirements for the nuclear facilities personnel.
So, the personnel can spend on this base several years without significant harm and then return to the Earth for preventive reabilitation.

If this settlement orbits near Mars, we can presume that the shift duration would be, say, two Martian Hohmann durations = 2 x 500..700 days = 1000..1400 days = 3.3..3.8 years. I.e. they can meet and send back 2 slow-moving cargo ships.
Plus ~0.7 years to get there and back. I.e. 4..4.5 years per shift.
So, we can presume that a 1 m thick iron hull means 5-years contracts. According to common sense, this means either "2x5 years in Martian orbital cylinder + retired for health" or "5 year shift + 5 year vacation + 5 year shift + retired for age", whatever they choose.

A carbon hull still requires either several meters of carbon or a meter of iron as a protective layer.

What I mean is:

Reveal hidden contents

Split the Phobos dust into metal powder (heat up to 20000 K and separate with magnetic field), 3d-print lego bricks from these powders, deliver them to orbit, stick them one into another and weld the edges.
TechLevel of gaseous fission reactor or early fusion reactor. Anyway requires them as an energy source.

Mostly I meant an orbital base, where the chemical corrosion is negligible.
But I would not bet on carbon structures for millenia lasting structures, as we yet can't see anything ancient and carbon, except the imprints in the coal.

I would bet on good, old classics: pyramides. They are made of just sandstone, but look nice for millenia. I would bet on SiO₂ + "metallic ceramics" combinations.

If I were an ET, I would just cut the natural stones and build auxilliary buildings putting them one onto another. Like a quickly assembled blindage hut, but made of stones.
Wait, oh ...

For carbon fiber you can embed lead into the structure of the fibers (as is done with plexiglass to make gamma shields) as much less weight per gamma absorbent. In space your primary concern is not gamma radiation anyway, its cosmic radiation. Mass is not particularly the issue, cosmic particles shatter on impact, but they are traveling at the speed of light and produce exotic matter states that will decay and cascade over distances, so or even Aerosolids are suitable if properly designed to capture the subparticles that are generated. Not the least bit concerned with gamma radiation in any soil covered cylinder, its not a concern.

If you are talking about Phobos as a source of materials, then I ask you again, where is the power supply for doing all this metal working? Phobos d(hv) = 0.4 Earth d(hv). If near earth it takes 50,000 square meters of solar to accomplish something on Phobos it would take 125,000 square meters of solar panels. The surface of neither Phobos or Deimos are stable.

tater · November 10, 2017

Added mechanical complexity is a failure mode. It would be better to avoid such failure modes if possible, I think. Any coaxial rotation would involve bearings as was stated above, which is overly complicated.

This is Mars, though, not O'Neill stuff.

While there are certainly resources on Mars, power is clearly going to be an issue to accomplish most of the desired goals. This means that a prerequisite is space nuclear power. I haven't been following what's going on in that area for a while, the last the US worked on was SAFE-400? I think sending anyone to Mars for more than a short duration stay without a nuke is a non-starter.

PB666 · November 10, 2017

19 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

If only things where so easy :-)

There's an ocean full of water on earth. You can't drink it. You can hardly gain enough for one person by evaporation at sea level in an atmosphere as thick & thirsty as earth's. Morning thaw must come to the rescue in humid climates if you have something to collect it, but it isn't always there when you need it. Shipwrecked can and do actually die of thirst surrounded by slightly (3% !) salted water. Now take soil that has 3% water. Higher concentrations are suspected i think, but somebody or something should actually take a look as to the wheres and hows. Btw., there is plenty of water below the earth's deserts, yet nobody lives there and at the fringes, where some do live, they pump until the ground water level gets out of reach. To wash the cars, those i... forget it :-)

Forget evaporation on Mars, you'd need something like osmosis to produce water (see: watermaker for ships), which in the same turn might help parting with some of the bad stuff. But it needs a lot of electricity and, despite your claims, it might and probably is just not enough for housekeeping and these things are very maintenance intensive. I would say unsuited for a distant planet. But don't cite me left handed :-))

The perchlorates are stable because of the high pH of martian soil (in the same way NaOH in chlorox makes bleach stable). If you acidify them they become unstable. You can force them to decompose. There is a climate forcing model working on Mars. We typically think of climate forcing as being man-made or inconstant (such as global warming or the procession of Earths orbit and axis). IN the case of mars the force created by the suns UV radiation and winds force hydrogen off the planets surface. This the cause an number of downstream effects, but primarily the loss of trapped heat (moisture buffers temperature drops at night). Because the retention of heat of the poles is insufficient the temperature drops below the sublimation point of carbon dioxide (which is an acid, forms H2CO3 in water). This has forced acidity away from the equatorial regions and to the poles. Since there is still CO2 in martian air all you need is to hydrate the CO2 (of course above 0.4'C) and then acidify the perchlorates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate#Chemical_properties

Note the single unit rise in redox potential once H+ is added. The end product is Cl₂which on earth is a bad-thing, but on Mars its something you would toss into the wind and steal the remaining water.

I should point out that the vapor pressure of CO2 in martian atmosphere is not that much different than Earth, so you might want to find a place that has dry-ice nearby to expedite the process. Again, this is a concept of how to recover water, it is not a procedure or practice. For that to occur alot of gory details need to be worked out. No complex chemistry on Mars is going to be easy, you don't have a lab full of Ph.D.s sitting around writing papers on how to extract water from crude perchlorates at Martian STP. The most important problem is that Martian soil is loaded with Na₂O. For those who are not familiar, this is what happens when you decompose Sodium hydroxide. You are going to need alot of CO2 and chemistry to turn this into Sodium Carbonate which can be set aside. There are alot of proto-basic chemicals in Martian Soil, to unlock those perchlorates these compounds have to be dealt with first. Its going to be a fight all the way to retain the catalytic water used to extract the chemical you want. The fact that the soil is so full of Na2O informs us on the prospects of life on Mars.

Edited November 10, 2017 by PB666

kerbiloid · November 10, 2017

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

If you are talking about Phobos as a source of materials, then I ask you again, where is the power supply for doing all this metal working? Phobos d(hv) = 0.4 Earth d(hv). If near earth it takes 50,000 square meters of solar to accomplish something on Phobos it would take 125,000 square meters of solar panels.

As I've already written, I don't take solar panels into account at all. Only nuclear energy.
Solar panels are appropriate for small (100..200 t, 6 humans onboard) consumers, and hardly beynd the Earth orbit.

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

For carbon fiber you can embed lead into the structure of the fibers

Doesn't matter. What matters is total mass per area of the protective layer, not its inner distribution of the atoms.
Also, any lead they should deliver from the Earth, where it is mined in the natural hydrothermal deposites (as well as copper, silver, mercury, other colored metals).
I've still never heard about known hydrothermal ores outside the Earth.
While the iron lays everywhere, including Phobos.

The "half-reduction layer" (can't find how would this sound correctly in English) of lead is 2 cm, just 1.5 times less than the iron has.
And lead hull is much more technologically and economically expensive, doesn't have any importance for the hull durability, soft (i.e. useless against micrometeorites), has low melting point (i.e. easily gets deformed under local impacts), and is a kind of the worst possible material to be used in the hull construction.

An iron construction can be produced everywhere near rocky objects (as they are mostly metal oxides), in any amount, at any moment.
It thermal inertia is great, its melting temperature is enormous.

There is a centuries-proven experience of the iron constructions up to half-million tonnes. While we still can only presume what will be with the carbon fibers 100 years later, if make something bigger than falcon/dragon.

Edited November 10, 2017 by kerbiloid

Diche Bach · November 10, 2017

14 hours ago, tater said:

The problem is rotational instability. Long cylinders are not stable rotating about the long axis, and they end up tumbling. The maximum length of a cylinder that is rotationally stable is about 2.5*radius.

I THINK the plan was to have two cylinders in any "unit," rotating in different directions.

tater · November 10, 2017

49 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:

I THINK the plan was to have two cylinders in any "unit," rotating in different directions.

Yeah, they are often shown that way. Still ends up requiring bearings for the framework holding them that a ring (short cylinder) lacks.

DAL59 · November 10, 2017

6 hours ago, PB666 said:

The _random_ probability of you finding one someplace useful

You can send drones ahead of time to scout the area, plus orbital mapping. Mars's surface area is the same as Earth(no oceans), so there is probably somewhere suitable.

6 hours ago, tater said:

I think sending anyone to Mars for more than a short duration stay without a nuke

I agree.

1 hour ago, Diche Bach said:

I THINK the plan was to have two cylinders in any "unit," rotating in different directions.

Yes.

Spoiler

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

Edited November 10, 2017 by DAL59

magnemoe · November 10, 2017

5 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

You can send drones ahead of time to scout the area, plus orbital mapping. Mars's surface area is the same as Earth(no oceans), so there is probably somewhere suitable.

I agree.

Yes.

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XUyehnFWZ/iR8qZs3COUqOWsbc4/ele3Wn61f8AZjsy2IHvbze6wwmWJy5gBJieW/e8xy0uvyeRJ1tA013WdB0j+9SLOOaZZiQBoOW+npqdK0HC9pOFWO5bsd1iAW90W0F3N3jcIZgCARvoANCKeC8M4izKAqOWkR/LcFzqY0zkkA/b+IaCTAklWxY5JJ2jN+I45rzZmYk+QEE7wBoNelRJol7Q9j72FBcA3bWsXUI0AkHOoJKjeW1XaG1Iqn4SthrgGJa4tuIm0oLeuY7eQPlWSSQXLk7DP2fYF2w1+47kWAl9LakEkubZLZQGEDLues7Qaqe22GvWzbQgG1bnKbaZU+IgSCSVMQCG55t9yd8Hxdj+HbC4FUxFt7V/IJZnRzacnMsZu8QBy50TYLgmIcj3yKsKAV3UmNY3JHnrSOUatICi+VM+dDHLT8I06896dxWKd8gZi2RAi+CgkgDw7xraON+yi1elrcWWPNJyz4rt8orPuNezjH4doFk3l5Na73zGhHyjxrKaY8o0CTMTvyEelco1E6Dr+dW//wAL4uJ9w/0/WuHZnF/8h/p+tOIa37IOH4W2t73N737OFDmIHdZohGUMujiQSa0bE4RXQoQIggabaRp0r507M4LH4LEJiLVhsy6FSVAZToVPe2I+RjpW9cY7S2cIB79shImN+nPnqd45Gs1apg86BLiHBP8Aw3C8QvC6Gu4oZE0C5dHjUasQHZpP3RWX8Kw96QLvdtzv3STJAkHUiJmi7tL2mbGo15e6qF1tLEz3RuAYkg7n5VS8Js4nEIptWHLOSJQSNDl1fbkdz4VNKlSHb8shWu0HuA9q0r2ZJBMbxpr478yfGkniagRbhm5k79dR9atu13A3waWWvxnJlgDMrIzZuu/0qu4b2Za65hlCmDm3kHn8vStKSirZknJ0h/gPF7huROsEjTTTWD1BFa/gOL2LeFXE3GCIQJ5kH7sDUmQazvD9mRhc1wuGkZVMRE/iarcTYxCEgHuxBRhImOh03povVivs7CG/i8bexGD96qOzn3hyqWBGsxoBEDTwnWrzAcGvgSxJQQBlYkLGmk9OtV/Cu0L4cKLlqUYgMqad1doA0A7x02MVoVvj1uITKB0pfq5aqh1OkTeyJEOJHKBz8fTarm/ZjyNC+DxGW4rLpry8d/oaMnWQaYVvyUV+zuPlUC5bkRzFXWKXQGq6+veoGKXE2+foap+K2ZXxWiDFJowqqxK/URSsKO7MYuGAJ37p/L9Ku/aL2f8A4/h5dFm/h8z243IIh1EayR3gPvKtCPDGhiP3INarwC5mBH3h+I/tTRehn7Pkk3CTmGnl+XQVMw99kBhozCD9Dp02om9p3Zz+Fxha2Is35uJpopmLi6dGM+TLQj8zp8v1p6NCTW0W2BxmUEcuk7V1QLDRXVnEos0q7J3ZrgjYzEJZXuqx77DkqkZjrzhhp1Iqw7bce99dNmxAwtk5VCgZXy93N3dI07vqdzU7g1/+GwGKxSlg10rZsloBhRqVI5qWLaf8vw0B85EeG2goo52KyknkJ9Kc71pwVYBlIZWQ7HQghh85FIUNBcciJJImTPI6nY/nvSpBG2wEmfT9/wC1FmRqHs+4s2LsXbLjM6IFLOc2YXC0nJEmEBBGaNjQh217MnCOptowtMikmcwR5grI2GxE6nNzqodimHtbd67ccjqFCIs+E+8Hqa1NMfZ4jhri2/eKr5rcnKWBOVpbk2Uso03DDXSpqougP2Q/ZThFXB3bgOV773LRYA5lUW9FU8iWM+o6CrXjPaJ8FY98Sb5Pu494dWVurDUMJOvQaihrslZxODx5wbOj2SUuXJBYQCqhlEghpgeQ5xFSe1nZS7dtgW2eATkt3WUwLZe3CFQIB00aSIGpkwZJSVCptT7L3g3tIwV+A5fDueVwys+DjSP8UUS3LqMAysGU7EEEH1FfNqdPHn+dTeH8UvWGmxca2eeU6HzB0PqK5MvxVL7XR2Qztdmwcc7H4PFSzIUc/btwpnxEQ3qKzzjXYO/YJa2BfQbZR3gPFDv6TV1wf2pOsLisOtwfftnKf9J7pPllo44P2sweLgWj3vuFsrfJhr6TSwhnx+UwyeOfgwUiDEQwOs6EH8QZp3H465ebNduPcI0Bdixj1Olbxxzs5hsUP52HaeTjRh/mAB9DpWccc9m162S2GY3V+44yv6fZb6V1QnfaojKPoF+FcauYdHRMpW58QYT8juOUxvAoo7Je0E8NLWratfw7HMQ5Fshz8TJEhVOndM7TIk0K3+EvaMXosno/x/6Flh6gDxpsPaXZGuHrcOUf6EM+uf0qpN7Lvtf2pvcTvyLZA2S2suQBryHqdKufZ9fvW3ezcuoECFltkh2U5kH2fhHePdJGvKhYLee3JZbVlp10todSNFUTcMiNAxq27G4q1bvsEBdjbbvPAGhVoVNeS7sTtsKIKNg4bgbZdLtxmeD3Q0QD4KBE+cmoHby21u7av5GKtC5SdyDOo6kGNelP8ExR0JOZzMTsBzjoNeW+noWnB279prdwZsw1PPwIPKOUfnSphVJgFa4fYuXHUDMHXNbJMkdV9NqHuIcPu2GOQ5l6HX+9Hn/wrcsGbZDKskciPTr4jpSk4VfuN3kAbckwImf3pQasyRXdlsIzZFZcrEyw3jw+Q+taE5gGoPCeFiyPvMdz+QqVfflWM2QsUdB51XYjf0qZfuSfAVAdpJNKEgYvdvL8qq73L1qdin0J61WYl49B/elYUVeFP8w+tad2XOif4VrMOHCWJ8K1Ls4kQOgA+Q/tRiN4B3tz2dGOw16wse8V2eySdnE93yIJX1B5V87QQSCCI010g8wfHwr6N4NxNbmZp+JnK7bZ/wBZoE7UdgRiMY2ItOBh7hJuRGYXAYYKP6vik7Et5UYTUoqRuD58UA3ZvgF/GuUsJmgSzHRV8z1PIb15W79lrCYZFt20yooPw7yeZmZJ5murhl8jPJ3Ckvyr/wBnX/C12Y32nuNZwOBw0FZDX2HOW+Eg/wD5LgjlA9RZ8Ocmfx1/X50R9v8A/wCotoM4C2LS9/lGYSPDQeZB3qkSxP24Ay+PoAP3p8vRk2jjxxTsi2EBIBBM8hpry/250o2TJWdJHhv6bx+cTT14KhBUht9SNuU+cgwDyqLeUnxLHruT+etBMaSrRL4k2X3SA6rZtyf8Za9//QfKjD2V8UcXmwqhWtXM7MWHeEKMxSNSSAoAnTQ+YfxaGv3YgBWZRJ0yoMigRrso+lL7O8XfCX0vpllQ0htiCpUg+h+cHWi+iRpfEOHDDu+Nv3O66e6uoZOX+YFDArBgOBpEwZ1I1k8R4i4tZ1R73vFF4PKhZa2BIUnOFa4jahY2qJx1DjWSw1z3fvcueFzJ71VzNbnQggBGnYydNZqXxbh6XHtvFwthyls5ZUZHH8vlrluIwJGms7aCKa5UwS9mNPqTPxEknlBkyCI3516rZTOnqAfodKMe3uDD4hX7lv8Al95iVQEgmNPiaBvlDHYUNi1ZHw577f0jInzgu/yQ+NV7Q10QCZ8Sfr+tS14cw/4uW0P/AFDB3+4AXI31y+tSguJMi1adB/6VpxPm0Fz6saat8BxR2wt8+Vm5+S0TF1wntfdwoy27ly+OQvQEHkurkeTr5UYcI9pdh+7iEewfvIA6eugYfI+dBfDexGNuDM1i5aUc2Q5j5JGY+ZgeNT17K45P+BgXn/m3jbL/AOVS2RP+ph96g4pm5UaXi8JhMXaBue7uWyJVmKjQ81PxDzFAnF+yuHtS2EuW2bXS8c5H+DQp/rDeYqoXsHxRmzm0wc6l2upmPmcxJoiwXZziigBhYI5lnAPzC/kanJTj9pSLhL7gLxOHuMEN6cxzKS5k6FiO95GNKjcMZbGIt3GM2w4zHnlOjbc8rGjTtXwW7btoXKknOSVJYLGWJMADn9aB0JjKPX1rpu8cW+yVVNpdGu8FvFGZW+IHKf8ALp/f1ozwGM/f6VmXB7xOHt3JlrYFu9rr/Q5810nqpon4dj9qgtBkqD+1jJGsGvLuI0BAJZeWmo5j1GvnFDtjGz4/jUxMXpudP3+/SmsUtxi8yhgYU86i3r/IfOqq5ichLAFlOrAbg/eH5j13mebE5hIIynWRz9aFhofvXOQqHiX+yPWkXMTyHzqBfxHIb8zQMJxNzXwFU3Er0L4t+FScRfABJOgqnVjdeeX4ClYyLbs/hczL4mT5D9/WtN4Vbi2xPMfjp+FCvZrh+gMat9F/v+lXvHuIi1ltB8uUS8RMnYbHl/vTVodJvSG17NWAwZAUjYA6c+R8TVZ2hNrh+EvXbrSsqQFHeLM2wBP9R59aaxHFoRndyluCSzHcAa5VB185isV7V9q3x7KCPd2EbuoNWJiMzHQExpAgCT1k6MF0hmnFpt7J/FvaJibhK2Iw6f0wzHzaIHkB6muoSRQdhr+HoP7+ldVVBLpAeSbdthL2/AbG3FOZCoUAvoCInb7IJMg+OvM0PxlMMOmh3ir/ANoIJxjMVZcyowDOWJBBEzJAHdOnL6C57Gezq5jLS37zqmGzaBe+52+Eqe6STBB0GsgGklVCQbQAPblS07HmfXapHCsvvbRM91s5naE755dFNF3tG7KYbC21u4ZzLXMrJmzKs5uZ1EFQNfvCg7A3ApuEbhGClv6iE8RsxPpRWzS0yw7M9lcTj7ws2RmMSzn4VWYLMekyB1IPQ1tPAvY1hLCg3gcQ/MsSFnwQaR5k1D9lfGrOD91gRbJv3SjXrhIHeZMwWI1CLCwNNzWt3bgAkkKOpMfjQcgOLXZnPGOC2LF5Lr3SgLmEy91Sy5c2nUqonqR1p/F2Lfu8qlEe4uQO4MZ5BTMswe/GnPbnUn2i4K3esEi+LRysudlJXKQC2sRIyA+U7VnXaTHXsNjMyotzD+5RCS6oriWJOZ4hlO0fnpKftIEYt6CrAcQyDM921dA+NgqDLzOePhIEHfrUlO12GZgiYiwzHQBO8T5BZoc4jwwXLZUJejEKbrrYFtgswLime8crMDCCYbZudVhuyeJW6Gs3LKWVKklM2dgTMMdCRpsGC/006cgR4pbYZcU7ZYew2S5fGeNUS2zMNJ7wjunwaCahYPt1bxEiwt9yOlsCfViKVxDsjYZle6WaPs5sqSOcLudd96s+A8OkEoEtWhpIG/l18zTPTps3JVpDPDeKXbphrdy10zsgJ/yrNPYsunxtHgWP6il8Q4haw7rlGp+0dWM6adB5VTdoGe465QdRy1pZTjFbDGMpP0N8U4mbZHNWEroTPzMVXYvit3Krp3de93VP4jT+9W//AIOzW7fcLFTz0Ma/ePlScZwa69tkzW7QJHOdo6D86lOU30v8fuWhw/7+wz/EsoUlyc3If2qk4lhcMQ3vUGZZ+HRo33EfWiAcDX3aI19u7zRQCfVs1LscBwwYsLbOx3LMfHp50rhkl26GUoR62APCrgw2ILLnKN3XR4bOh8ViCNxodR50SYiz7rLctt7yw+qOOnQjkQdCNxRA6Ye13ili3A+JsswPE60KcY9pVlXS3bQYixP805cum38uY1G8kQYA5yKxjL9TJzafgt8LxDbWf31q2wXEBIBMA6GfHn6GD6UPpw+3ft/xGCuh7Z3A3U/dZT8J8/Qmov8AE3EMOh9JFHaJ0Fr44gkEwQYOnOoV2/GqHxKnY/ofEfI1V4ziQKpd73eBVtB8awD8wVb1NQn4qP6j8hWbNRdtjp0PdP3ef9/SouJxoA10HTmap3xjvoFgfP8AHSl4Xhj3DzJ+fzJ2pbGSOuXmumBov73ok4DwiYJGnIfeP6U9wfgB0kBvATHr1q3432gwvDEzYhwbpHdtL3nb0+yPEwPwpkg9F6g/h7TXIDPHdBIAnqSdlG5P9qAW4gpYsG9/cYkl9fdgn7in4/M6bQDVfgcTjeOO168RYwNtoFudLjDkY1uAaTsswOtX9vABScpARZl9tOceHmTU8uRxdLs6vjQtNsBPaDxci0bQZmuXIzsdIQHUepgctJrPIA038qn9quKfxOJuXBok5bY6Iui+p+I+LGq+0k+ldGOLS32c+SalP6eh+wuoPnXte2NZ0HT89a6rJgSNL4X2Lbid6xdIFvDrhMO13vS9z4u6CfhJAIzHkBzOhjw3jQs23tKlxULMVzlAug+GMqgIANzEknXag7st2+bAYSy1y2t62wv2ygaGDByysZ0AgkEeIPhQ3wjtaq371zF2i7NAXIQoQ+8Vj3YE6Dc6mPGueUZPoGNxXYd2uFW8Vfa2b6sSpJPu1ZYBy/aj7JEmPU0CcW7IImcti7SlmkqEiNzsYCzuFEgRvXnbPtNauX8+CLW1IgsBkaNDlBmY01/Ohu1dZ86k94Kzd4kzlIczrqSAZPhRjHQ05psODj7dlyyXL0uQ75VQMXzTJuTOXoozAR133zhru9u3dFpczIrS7nNqAd8jddqxH2U8LwHEMlvEBkxViICvlF+2NiRGrL8JiDAB6x9AJAAA0HKlZpzTSoG+2XD3vYds3ulCgmGJYNoRGqiPSsd9pfB3t4bBLIvXFDWybcmRkQ6ACeXStz7R2VuWSrEDUEE7SDOvhy9aGOAq1uygLq5yrMHQabDw5elCtkk9gXwz+KxVq2VS7ZfKkq6Mo99bUqGl1KhbiMVOm5Q7qakxirhX3N2wF095mcl50+IC2cu5kaajejLHh2ttBKmJBAOhHPxHUc6DsFjb911VrdoyMt1lMFbolsy6D+XdHeymIYP6zpR+mwvu6Cs4fuILjDMAAxHMxEif0plbaKMvvLhX7uYgbzsI51Q8Y7V4fCIDcW+5EA5LTBZ/xvlX5E0HY/2qsZFjCqvQ3XLH1VYj5mrUDRpbC1mzC0pbqQCfrNKvYtgJMIvUwB8zWHcQ7e467I9+bYPK0oT6gZvrQ/icS905rjs56uxY/Mk0UjWbjxDtlhLej4pGPS3Nz/sBA9TQ5jPaVZGlrD3bhmBnKoD8sxrKwa6jRrYa4/2j4piRbW1aHVVzN83kfSl8Bs4ziDZr1++bXMByoPoCFA+U052U9n9y6q38TCWzqqtu3iw5Dw5/ivtxx9FH8Jh2mNLj7KOqIBt/UfTrS8ldIpGKS5SKXtVxdDOHw+UWkMFlPxkchGmQeG/UihyvK9MQOusn8t6ZISUm3bJvCeK3sM4uWLj236qdCOhU6MPAyK0HhPtKtXAFxuHhj/5lgAz4m2x09D10rMZjw/PWfyrysA3bh+L4fiVKWcTaJYghGJttIn7Lx9knboOlTLXZu22qsjDqLgP4VgWExLW3S4phkYMvmpkfWpPHMMqXSUEW7gFy34K+uX/KZTzU0KRrN6/8GsW9Xeyg6u6/maiYztdwzDDvYkXiNksDPPqIQeprASPKvQPDQb/h+NajWzT+0HtbvODbwVoYdf8AmMQ1wjfSe6p/1elB3A+D3cficrOzT3r11iWIXqWJ1Y7AfoaqcJhmuutu2ssxCgDXUz8hHyg61uHZXs8uEw4RQJOr3G0zN4cyBsAKnnyxxx12Vw43N76LWxbS3aS2gy2ragKvh+euvmSaFvaTxs2MGLa6HEEqDt3BGc+IMhf8xovs2kHLMd5bYeS/rPlWH9ve0BxmLe4Cfdr3LWv2FkT/AJiWPqK4/jxc5cn4OvPNRhxRQPM97z+ev51KwNmQ7lM6IJaOUnKDPmahEk6mnbMEiRPSvTRwokq4nQZdPOfGupdoKHJB7oA38uXrNdTOSLRVrsvOF/zMDi7QIBtOl8DLJaQUbxAUKuvInXQ0LEflRB2Q4p7jGISwRLga07N9lX0zdBBCmTpprVbxjh5w+Ie1DAKxy5hlJXkdeopUc3khvMf2jbT/AH8ae4b/AMRQYgnKZjZu4YO+znalWwDJKn98/mfwqOVkSJnrS8inDR5h772mV0ZkdTKsCQVI5g8jNalwL22Yi0oTE2VxEAd9WyNtuQAVJ8stZnjgsseZOYeTd4fQ1DFbsVqjeMF7T04g/uFwzopEvca4oyCQAQADmOcgRpOtCnHu2OMwOS1bhA9sMtwqrFtTqNSqiDtrErQ/7OcKWvu8/wAtFUOBOYktKZY2IZM09ARzprt7cuC7bRmBQWlNqDMq0yWbm0rrp6Ck/UKRMf2txt+fe4u8w+6r5Ad+SQPpRL7POJK1nFWroa8WFubRly9sTmVNZDDcEc8tZ8d9KkYHFPZcXLblGGxXx+noaM02tdmNXxNlHw1+zZtuyNblIDEENKqwEShDL3w2iMGnTWsjv2HQw6sp/qBHymtX7F8US/gSL90yLzZm+0uixoBDIQq5lA8dCARH7X4AXMILdsG4ysCJ1YGSYzx3lKfCx+IFdZNC67oC9Iyuup6/ZZWhlZDyDKRp11pFm2WIVVLM0AAAkkzyA504RKg8t9oHOdP7etaR2L7Gi1GIxay29u0fsnkzdT4cueu1h2K7GLhgL2Ig3uQ3Fvy6t48uXWn+2HapMImW0A19h3c2oUbZiPwHOuaeSUnxgdEMaS5SIPbztabYNi2380jvNv7tT/7iP16VmBI8fOeXy38aVcvsxLMZYklmO5J1JJpsj1quOCgic58melq8WOsVb8N4Wy3bL37F0WBct+9JtvGTMM3LaJ8/Wj/2o3sE1mbRtTC+693l1kjUZTsB4dPWsVZKUqMopYU6x60inc+kDnv4Hw9KUdfkbVZq0BFzCmNXw55xPu7jCfRbv/7jVWWO1TuCYgW7ozz7twbdz/A4yk+a/EPFRRAQgx3pVzYbeY366/OPTzpWNwzWrj23+JGKnzBj5c5or7BdnjecX3QsitFtYnO4/ED8fI0JTUYtsMYOTpBT7O+z3uE99eH864vdU/YQ8vBjpPoOtGduxcYFoGXkTz8F6+e1TcDw5LQD4gy3K0Nf9R/Y86bxvEGusNNBoqjYV5WecY/Xle/R6GP+WC/uCXtB4scNg2GaLt7+WkcgfiPouk9SKxhW1neif2h8Y/icWQDNuzNtehIPeP8Aq08lFDSwK9DAqgn7OTLLlIfuiQO8Y6dKZjnTiHQ8hTYYbVW2wNIftEDcfWupma9pwcq6PQddRPnt6xRd2pyYmxax1s5iCbd5SQGDaQYgbkyYkd7YUIXLs78ttKvOyHEIunDuYtYge6b7oYnuuQdCQe7OkA70CZUe90jbr56/SmveyI5U9xXAPh7r2nBBUkSQRmE6MAeRqNaWTEgT12rUNyfQ9dfujTUqAf8AKcunjCimS2snf5fhS7mix0Y+oI0/7TTBNZihh2HdVS/duMSp7jJMCMrODI1DZh3YjXzqq7X93F3UzZlSFTfupEhRrrGaJOpiTvRVwwHA2O+gPu5OIA5gt3Y0GZgxVeilCZrPH3J6k+mp3J50tbAjs3KuHzpNeg0Qk3hvE7mHYtaaJEMCAQR0INH/AAPiFvEYezcxDSyPcWUXMVMyFKKDmtwwlfUEGZzMGrvszexfvsmDdgzaEj4cvVg0gADTbwG9K0u9WCm9IKO1GEfF2VhFV7YzSWXLlIYDK8wyvlEMNyNY1i17F9nUwy+8IzXiNWI0UdEnl/Vz8KsrmGWxYs276NiWViQ+inMxLMQTpAJjIdCAJ2pnheLa0y3LoDKZCBVYK8nRf/T2nKTyMFgJMm1NUmUg/wDzl9SPe1PaFcLbzNDXGn3adT1I6CsfxeJa67XHOZ2Mknn+gG0URdtMJfZv4q7cS4LhjugrkAmFC8lGo899TNC9PjgorQcuVzf4PSIrR/YzwRL167euKG90FCA66mSW+WnqazeKKuwHaw8PvMTrbuABo5RsfqaoSN/xWFAQiAR0rAO3/DEw+JbJorgNHyMfOtExntCsspyuCD0P5CZ8tKyftLxc4q8X5DQeVLdsNaKqK4V5XUxjq6uqRgMC964lq2MzuYUfr0AGpPSsAKOFdn24i1i4DAC5MQ3Me7ACkTze0UAPVWNa1w7DmyoSyoRVUKI6dAd6T2Q7OLhLAsr3j8Tt95o38o0A6UUYfAnwHl+u9ebllkyy+jo68fHGt9lThuGk6t9dP7mqvt3j1wOCuXRpcbuWuXfbn45RLelG9vDgVgvtq7Qe/wAYMOhm3hwVMc7jasfQQvgQ3Wtj+DG+U9sEvkN6Rnx/2/fnNeV0Vxr0jnFIf9q8NJr2aKBY6oHX9866j7CdibaWLZuo9y86hiiE5hPKBoI8f7V1M9dhoz5t66K5q4LSihjYy8TsC2cq4yyohiABdRRABJMzrr4689BC/YZGKOCrLuCINKsXzbcOjFWUyrDQgjnRbY7Q4bFgLj7cMBAupPnJjvA6RpIM7CsAErbkhp10B18CB+DGrrs1wg3HF17am2J7tzNDkq2UjTVQ2UnXXbWavRwvAWQtzOr/ABBu+rr3QQxChtdWVspDEgCAdagcT7TKkrYW2xyouYoGVSihVa2SASwCiCVAGsDWs36MR+1PEIi0uZbsn3/eknKwNsMQSuYfEcumYnpoMilMZkmSSef59ZrzMevp+/IfKhQRNdXRXEVjFv2Z7P3cdd91bgKILu3woOp6noo1PzI3Ts/wHCYG2EtoXP2nbdj1P6cqyfsx28OEtC1/DWyo+0hKMepYnMCx9PSjPh/tKwTDvrdtt1dcw9MhP1FRnzeki0OC7YT9pOO27WHd76qLQ+yVBzHkoB0JNZnwvty103BcyWzmDWVPwAAQLTDQFeZnck7QKoO2Hae5jrwZpW0s+7ToOp5Zj9NhQ8BWjjdW3sWck9I1PgiWrwuKQj3PtW86uil5+AsIPwzkckD73KqbifCLZV8OLaC+pJUomUwNpHQx5ayORoQ4djmsMGWCD8S8mE7GiPgPH094tpwVssGWXacjGCMjCCg5GCAZ1FUjpqNa9k2vJSYrgGItqxa3onxQymPHQ7VVitIBQXBatnIsAXBcEFjrqrgBCTIEME8zVZieEWLbA3MO1u23dUl21bTYjuk6/ZJGh22pltWEDBXVc43s5cVwFy5W1TMwmInUb+sa6darMXhHtNkcQfmD4g0QUR69pUUkitRjyto9mPZT+GQXrwi9dA0I+BDrHmdz6DkaxkGIIOvhIIjbWrnDdq8bb+HF3fJmLf8AdNSyQclSGi0j6esgAaaUpXjTp+FfOeF9o/EE/wDPDf4raf8AtAq/4b7S8W9m6xS01y0FeMrANbzZX2fdSyNPTPpzrU10jaNZ7WdoFweEu4jQlVhB1c6KPmdfAGvly7eZ2ZmMsxLMTuSZJM9SaKO2Hbe9j0toyLbVCWhCTmYiAddoE/6jQoFOwFNG62BnTXFqtx2cuEDKVZiQMuukmN9jHOrnh/CLeV0Fj3yoct28e6FOv2mOVAI01kx40xil4b2dvX7fvUyhdQMxImOkA8+sUf2LWGsYQ2rbKChC3L1ycrsd/dqP+MeWXkIlhpVg+De4uW2i3kYIEVGC2bYXSDs1yNZzZR/SYoT4p2yuWr7rbTD3/dnLbvNbkiAJyQQMuacsACI3rXuhqpWSOI8Yt2rt3Du962sr72Bma6dHUsZGUDNIQQoJO51rqB8Ree47XHYs7GSTzJ38vKurcPYrdn//2Q==

You win the achievement for the most cryptic post so far.

DAL59 · November 10, 2017

The image didn't imbed.

I put the link into a spoiler to prevent page loading issues.

kerbiloid · November 10, 2017

I have to apologize, my calculations of the hull thickness were a little wrong. Just realized this. Automatically missed logarithms.

Of course as we have to decrease the radiation 14..140 times, the required iron hull thickness is 3 * ln(14..140)/ln(2) = 11..22 cm.

So, a battleship armor thickness (~50 cm) looks enough.

P.S. Yes, cosmic rays are mostly protons. But when they hit the hull, they must cause secondary cascades, including gamma and X rays emission.

17 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

You win the achievement for the most cryptic post so far.

Html embedded inage. When you google a picture, you don't see a link to it, you see such thing. Just look the "Page source" or so, by right-click.

DAL59 · November 10, 2017

Two contra rotating cylinders.

PB666 · November 10, 2017

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

As I've already written, I don't take solar panels into account at all. Only nuclear energy.
Solar panels are appropriate for small (100..200 t, 6 humans onboard) consumers, and hardly beynd the Earth orbit.

Doesn't matter. What matters is total mass per area of the protective layer, not its inner distribution of the atoms.
Also, any lead they should deliver from the Earth, where it is mined in the natural hydrothermal deposites (as well as copper, silver, mercury, other colored metals).
I've still never heard about known hydrothermal ores outside the Earth.
While the iron lays everywhere, including Phobos.

The "half-reduction layer" (can't find how would this sound correctly in English) of lead is 2 cm, just 1.5 times less than the iron has.
And lead hull is much more technologically and economically expensive, doesn't have any importance for the hull durability, soft (i.e. useless against micrometeorites), has low melting point (i.e. easily gets deformed under local impacts), and is a kind of the worst possible material to be used in the hull construction.

An iron construction can be produced everywhere near rocky objects (as they are mostly metal oxides), in any amount, at any moment.
It thermal inertia is great, its melting temperature is enormous.

There is a centuries-proven experience of the iron constructions up to half-million tonnes. While we still can only presume what will be with the carbon fibers 100 years later, if make something bigger than falcon/dragon.

Lead would be a biproduct of asteroid mining just like any other metal. The amount of lead added to plexiglass shielding is surprisingly small and effective. Like I said gamma radiation is the least of your issues, the soil in such a structure would suffice to block most of the gamma without any particular effort. (In my layout I allow 3 meters for substrate so that you can grow healthy trees). Secondarily the humans I would place in an interior centrifuge so that protecting them is a priority. Plants are much more tolerant of ionizing radiation that humans are, in fact, they grow better with a healthy dose of UV. The other little known fact is that, due to more rapid gamete replication, human males germline is much more susceptible to the effects of ionizing radiation relative to females, so protection of the germline largely involves protecting the males, making females more suitable farmers.

Just to debunk one of your myths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_threat_from_cosmic_rays

"- Spacecraft can be constructed out of hydrogen-rich plastics, rather than aluminium. "
Right now we are talking carbon-fiber which has moderate amounts of hydrogen.
The soil of such a craft would have both water and CH hydrogen in the form of composting organic matter (Cellulose). A loose soil serves two functions.
1. to interfere with primary cosmic radiation creating secondary radiation and slow that radiation down.
2. to interact with secondary radiation and causing additional cascading at lower energy
3. to provide a space whereby secondary radiation can auto-decay. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/cosmic.html

Don't assume that just because something is protective on Earth that it also protective in space. Most of the radiation exposure on Earth comes from Radon gas which is an alpha emitter (adsorption hazard) and potassium (beta' and radiation hazard) which is a gamma emitter. While alpha and beta emitters in space are largely derived from cosmic radiation that can decelerate within the human body spontaneously producing radioactive isotopes that then decaym creating risk. To reduce risk in space what you really need it more space and elements that can undergo interferance and rapid acceleration (Hydrogen, helium, lithium) .

A primary cosmic ray is composed of mostly hydrogen and some helium, they are traveling so close to the speed of light that speeds are indistinguishable until a cascade can be measured. The original particles leave their source in very violent circumstances and the rotational status is equally energetic. Looking at the combined energies it might appear that the radiation is moving at the speed of light, in actually the spinning protons (or alpha particles) are creating an electromagnetic field that is maintained because of the speed and lack of interactions. Thus cosmic hydrogen and helium are differentiated from material sphere that surrounds the earth. Upon crossing the psuedo boundary the longer distance electromagnetic/spin (magnetic field) interactionns slow c-hydrogen down, direct interactions also slow them down. The less massive the target the more energy it gains and the more energy the cosmic radiation looses. The rapid alteration of nuclear spin results in the ejection of particles (secondary) some of which interact more with the material mileau and some that do not (autodecay). " Attempts have been made to model how much ordinary matter would be required along their pathway for collisions to produce the observed population of these light elements. One study suggested that it is about equivalent to passing through 4 cm of water."-http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/cosmic.html.

Secondary consmic rays are compose of high energy subatomic particles like muons, some are charged and can undergo interaction with charged materials loosing their energies and slowing them down where autodecay occurs. Others (like neutrons) will travel until they hit an unsuspecting nucleus.

As we can see the need for radiation protection is not so much the exterior level but interior, between the 'slowing down material' (Water, hydrocarbons, etc) and inhabitants. Having a vessel within the vessel, properly spaced from primary and secondary remediation is the best protection from product radiations.

28 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

Two contra rotating cylinders.

That design is the least practical of the designs that I have seen.

tater · November 10, 2017

Orbital habitats in an equatorial obit are far safer, BTW.

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