The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[Rakaydos]

Quote

DV reserve: 810 m/s

This still seems low for a no-patched conics interplanetary rendevus. (rendevus with Tylo SoI). I can elk out a bit more with manual staging in Phase 1 and 2, but it's still rough. Thoughts?

Edit: Phase 0/phase 1 fuel consumption: 10.62 fuel units/sec
Phase 0 pod pair: 336 fuel units, 31.64 seconds per stage
-126.5 seconds for Phase 0

Phase 1 stack pair: 1008 fuel units, 95 seconds to exaust (2 stack pairs, 190 seconds for phase 1)

If this math is right, the entire jool ejection burn is over in a 5 min burn, even though it starts at around 2m/s^2

Edited September 2, 2018 by Rakaydos

[JAFO]

14 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Thanks to the Alert tab, the haystack was only 5 pages of  minor docking failures burying the major docking failure (and one or two other stranger issues I hadnt noticed yet). Thank you.

You're very welcome, and I'm glad it helped.. it would have been a shame to see all this effort go up in flames at this late stage.

[Muetdhiver]

810 m/s for correction is not that bad. The big risk with caveman direct encounter burns is missing the target entirely, or barely getting in the SOI.

With the long burn and inclination difference I find this too risky for my taste. What is your plan for misses and grazing encounters ? Maybe doing the burn in two or three passes would help to limit inaccuracies from the ejection burns. But midway corrections are impossible to do without patched conics. 

IMO 810 m/s is enough to save a not ideal encounter. A truly bad one not though.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Muetdhiver

[Rakaydos]

8 hours ago, Muetdhiver said:

810 m/s for correction is not that bad. The big risk with caveman direct encounter burns is missing the target entirely, or barely getting in the SOI.

With the long burn and inclination difference I find this too risky for my taste. What is your plan for misses and grazing encounters ? Maybe doing the burn in two or three passes would help to limit inaccuracies from the ejection burns. But midway corrections are impossible to do without patched conics. 

IMO 810 m/s is enough to save a not ideal encounter. A truly bad one not though.

"Retroactive simulation" can let me hack together a mid course correction "the hard way", but I'm also very worried about tylo intercept. My usual caveman rendevus technique is a phasing orbit, but I cant really use Oberth to match tylo's orbit.

[dvader]

5 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

"Retroactive simulation" can let me hack together a mid course correction "the hard way", but I'm also very worried about tylo intercept. My usual caveman rendevus technique is a phasing orbit, but I cant really use Oberth to match tylo's orbit.

What's "retroactive simulation"? I tried estimating the interception accuracy by comparing distance ratio to velocity ratio but it means many small and fairly late corrections (since it is difficult to estimate average velocity until you're close to Ap). I was planning on using the same technique to avoid Tylo/Vall/Laythe on the way in to Jool but I didn't have to.

My main concern would be grazing encounters since missed encounters just need time to get a second chance. A grazing encounter can force you to choose between a very high dV burn (at most 1700 dV or so) or the unknown risk of totally messing up your Kerbol orbit and not getting another chance easily. Another serious risk is ending up in reverse orbit (against the direction of the moons) which would add to the intercept cost with any moon.

A small tip is to wait until the planned intercept is at the ascending/descending node of the Jool/Kerbin orbits. There is of course no marker for planets but you can estimate it using the tracking station. This should minimize any mid course inclination changes and save fuel.

Ejection angle and timing is of course important too but can be corrected once out Kerbins SoI. Many smaller burns help but I screwed up the ejection anyway and opted for a 25 year long 2x Jool orbit solution just to conserve fuel and stay safe. The extra time was well spent practising how to let go of the ladder but that's another story. It all paid off in the end (but I still have to go home):

SPOILER

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by dvader

[Rakaydos]

2 hours ago, dvader said:

What's "retroactive simulation"?

"It was all a dream simulation", because Quickload.

[dvader]

8 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

"It was all a dream simulation", because Quickload.

Ha ha ha! I thought it would be something technical but it makes perfect sense now .

Yes, with the "retroactive simulator" the intercept should be fine and you only have the ejection burn and inclination change to worry about. But, even those can be retrofitted with the "simulator". So, assuming it is only your patience that is the limit, 810 dV should be enough

[Mr. Peabody]

18 hours ago, dvader said:

SPOILER

  Reveal hidden contents



Visiting the prehistoric Kraken! That is beyond awesome! May the tentacles be with you. 

[dvader]

2 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

Visiting the prehistoric Kraken! That is beyond awesome! May the tentacles be with you. 

Thank you! I didn't plan it from the start but once Bob was in space I started wondering what else I could do and the Kraken seemed both fun and plausible. Once I started thinking about it I had to since it would be such a nice ending for Bob who has really done all the heavy lifting this time. I was also compelled by the ancient ones of course...

I even made a custom flag as a tiny teaser (but I don't think anyone noticed):

[joshudson]

Caveman 1.4.3 Talc. Bonus feat: Threw a rock at Laythe and got science data back with a single launch.

https://imgur.com/a/pWRDNgz

[Adsixnine]

Looks interesting. I'll try and attempt it when i have time 

[dvader]

That's it! I am finally done with the NCD attempt after a months of playing.

Both Bob and Val are back, all tech has been researched and I have 300 science left.

There was a serious incident right before the injection burn back at Kerbin when Bob unexpectedly dropped the ladder. Thanks to a ridiculous amount of fuel left, I managed to save the situation but it was rather nerve wrecking to say the least. That is Kerbin in the picture, Bob is almost 30 km away and moving away from me at 350m/s and the only engine I have left is this tiny Spark that is trying to push a 4t craft as fast as it can...

Full story here:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/175894-caveman-the-making-of-another-nanocrystalline-diamond/&do=findComment&comment=3446216

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by dvader

[dvader]

After NCD, I figured I'd try Talc since I really want that Badge of Honor (sooo pretty). But, rockets are dangerous! Both pilots were killed in a horrible accident!

So, mission control added some extra rules.

• No Kerbals are allowed on rockets.
• Only proven tech. At most Lvl 45. No level 90 stuff. That is, only the stayputnik is allowed.

That is, only unmanned crafts with the stayputnik is allowed.

Story here:

https://imgur.com/a/fOF5NGQ

Video here:

Spoiler

 

Since I still have Vanadium to do, I might try the same thing again (someday). Oh, also no contracts but with 250,000 starting cash it made no difference.

[IncongruousGoat]

Back in the day, Talc runs were scored as speedruns, so I set out to figure out if I could complete a Talc run in under one in-game day. The answer, by the way, is yes, but I found it too easy to hit that bar. So I stepped it up some, and went to find out if I could complete a Talc run in under one in-game hour. The answer, once again, is yes. The final time came out to 0h, 42m.

Album is here: https://imgur.com/a/2m5AvWU

It wasn't difficult to do (Talc is really easy). The main breakthrough that enabled it was never going to orbit, and using a suborbital hop to get the high space science from Kerbin. I don't think it's possible to do it much faster, since the space center doesn't give you enough science to permit avoiding high space entirely, and flying long-distance jets around Kerbin for biome-farming just takes too long.

Edited September 7, 2018 by IncongruousGoat

[dvader]

11 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Back in the day, Talc runs were scored as speedruns, so I set out to figure out if I could complete a Talc run in under one in-game day. The answer, by the way, is yes, but I found it too easy to hit that bar. So I stepped it up some, and went to find out if I could complete a Talc run in under one in-game hour. The answer, once again, is yes. The final time came out to 0h, 42m.

Oh, a speed run. 42m is very impressive so challenge accepted!

I'll be back...

[Mr. Peabody]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:07 AM, joshudson said:

Caveman 1.4.3 Talc. Bonus feat: Threw a rock at Laythe and got science data back with a single launch.

https://imgur.com/a/pWRDNgz

Congratulations on completing talc! You may claim your badge. I am also awarding you the "Order of the Trilobite" for your interplanetary mission. 

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:48 AM, dvader said:

That's it! I am finally done with the NCD attempt after a months of playing.

Full story here:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/175894-caveman-the-making-of-another-nanocrystalline-diamond/&do=findComment&comment=3446216

Epic congrats to you for completing the hardest level in the Caveman challenge - Nanocrystaline Diamond! Unga Bunga! You may claim your badge. P.S. I will look forward to awarding you the badge of honor. 

14 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Back in the day, Talc runs were scored as speedruns, so I set out to figure out if I could complete a Talc run in under one in-game day. The answer, by the way, is yes, but I found it too easy to hit that bar. So I stepped it up some, and went to find out if I could complete a Talc run in under one in-game hour. The answer, once again, is yes. The final time came out to 0h, 42m.

Album is here: https://imgur.com/a/2m5AvWU

It's great to see you taking another crack at this challenge! That is a very impressive time. You may claim your badge.

Cave wall has been updated.

[MinimalMinmus]

Congratulations dvader, IncongruousGoat and joshudson!

Looks like it's my turn to go full tilt on NCD.

Oh, and because I'm stupid: How hard could it be... to land on EVERYTHING?

[Superfluous J]

56 minutes ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Oh, and because I'm stupid: How hard could it be... to land on EVERYTHING?

With separate, non-return missions? If they can land on Tylo they can land anywhere, though Eve would be interesting.

With return missions? Impossible. No caveman tech engine can get you off of Eve.

In one mission (ending at Eve without a return)? Even if you could your computer would melt from the sheer number of parts needed.

In all cases the difficulty level would be somewhere between Duna and Tylo for all planets/moons, and each would take similar steps and measures. In other words, you'd be occupied in (what I consider) the drudgery of vast volumes of assembly launches for a long, long time.

[IncongruousGoat]

59 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

With return missions? Impossible. No caveman tech engine can get you off of Eve.

Well... you say that...

But if you land on Mount Launchpad, the atmosphere isn't going to be quite as bad. I'm pretty sure that, at those altitudes, you could use a 5-way asparagus Reliant cluster (or similar) to plow through the lower atmosphere. The upper stage engines and tanks available to cavemen are more than adequate, and nothing required should be outside the capabilities of pad and orbital assembly. Obviously, nailing that landing isn't going to be an option in an NCD run since you can't take the required trial-and-error approach, but in a more conventional run it might just be possible.

[Rakaydos]

Simulation Album here

Some instability during phase 1, that SAS CAN compensate for, but didnt in "hold heading" mode. Also I missed the chance to stay just inside kerbin SoI for burn 2.

With both these factors, Phase 0 and phase 1 combined got me out to just under Dres orbit. next time will hopefully go better.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Rakaydos

[dvader]

On 9/7/2018 at 3:32 AM, IncongruousGoat said:

The main breakthrough that enabled it was never going to orbit.

Not returning from space is even faster! It wasn't a huge difference but I got down to 32 minutes so ten minutes faster .

It was rather hectic so I forgot to screenshot anything interesting (only science return so I'll skip that). But, I did film it. I really really wanted to go below 30 minutes but made a few small mistakes that probably cost me 1-5 minutes.

1. Don't try to get Transmission Station Hub micro biome. It is just way too hard to find it. I got it by accident during my previous run but couldn't this time. Alternatively, figure out exactly why it is sometimes there and sometimes not.
2. Pack more batteries for the space launch. I couldn't send all the science home
3. Remember to jump on shores and grasslands for "flying"

I noticed something has changed with the micro biomes. VAB Main Building is no longer there but instead, once you touch the VAB, the biome changes to Vehicle Assembly Building which is different from the VAB biome. It also seems to "stick". Once you touch the building, it still says Vehicle Assembly even when you back away again. Same with R&D Corner Lab and SPH Main Building.

EDIT: Also, in my first attempt, I couldn't get "Flying over VAB" and such science. I'm pretty sure you could that before.

There were plenty of reloads. Especially near the end when I realised I didn't have enough batteries and desperately tried to send Val to Grasslands as fast as possible for some extra science.

Tech screen screenshot is here:

Spoiler

Full video here. The speedrun ends at 9:09 and then I rescue Jeb (just because).

Spoiler

 

 

The speedrun vs NCD is like the KSC got a new angry boss: "40 years to complete the tech tree is too long! You have 40 minutes! NOW GET TO WORK!"

Edited September 8, 2018 by dvader

[MinimalMinmus]

Now that's what I call talc-ing like a real caveman!

[joshudson]

7 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Now that's what I call talc-ing like a real caveman!

My whole reason for playing Talc was to try that Jool mission. Personally I think all those KSC biomes are exploity, but whatever.

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, joshudson said:

Personally I think all those KSC biomes are exploity, but whatever.

How can something intentionally added by the devs be considered "exploity"?

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, JAFO said:

How can something intentionally added by the devs be considered "exploity"?

 

When I first got KSP, I still remember intensely looking for some information on playing stock career.

And then when I found all the advice started with launching a Mk1 pod all by itself on the pad, without anything else, and having Jeb EVA onto the pad to look for science....

That's not spaceflight.  And that's not proper spaceflight testing either.  Between that, not being able to launch unkerballed rockets at start, and the silly hoops I had to jump through to store multiple Crew Reports, I was really disappointed.

 

(BTW, the link in your sig for "KSP 1.0.x Complete Printable Stock Science Checklists" is not working, I think due to one of the many forum changes.)