The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[Popestar]

4 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

4x time warp is about it. Or get wheels and make a car.

Making a car requires science upgrades.  Science upgrades require science points.  Those points are in the biomes. 

[Superfluous J]

19 minutes ago, Popestar said:

Making a car requires science upgrades.  Science upgrades require science points.  Those points are in the biomes. 

True dat. But I had good luck with the Wheesly as propulsion, cheap plane wheels to roll, and cheap landing struts as ersatz brakes. Just never nose up to a building as there's no reverse

And then you can take all the science doodads with you.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Superfluous J

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

I'd like to get one of my Kerbals into every KSC biome for EVA reports, but man it takes forever to walk to even one of them.  Is there any way to run faster?

If you go back through old challenge attempts done by others here, you'll come across several variations of a fascinating device called a "Science Roller".

It's the solution to your problems.

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

I also got a plane off the ground...but crashed upon attempting to land.  I was around 80 m/s, which I'm guessing is too fast.  And my descent was probably too steep.  Anybody have tips on flying?  Turning, landing, etc.?  Again, I can get off the ground...but it does me no good if I can't land.

Re landing: Attach a parachute at the plane's center of mass. When you need to land, get above the point you want to set down, kill the engine and pop the 'chute. Of course, this only works once, unless you have an engineer who can re-pack parachutes aboard!

Edited November 24, 2020 by JAFO

[Popestar]

As soon as I typed that, I was like "Well, I could strap a fuel tank and a terrier to a command pod, throw some wheels on it...maybe some ailerons to slow down...and I've got a car.  Maybe.".  Gonna try that out tonight and see how it goes.  Gotta get to 90 points so I can pick up Miniaturization; I am not sure i can get to the Mun without a space station with extra fuel tanks in orbit first.  And I need Miniaturization to get the docking clamp.

[JAFO]

2 minutes ago, Popestar said:

As soon as I typed that, I was like "Well, I could strap a fuel tank and a terrier to a command pod, throw some wheels on it...maybe some ailerons to slow down...and I've got a car.  Maybe.". 

This is one of the wonderful things about this challenge... it really encourages "outside the box" thinking, and coming up with innovative solutions to problems!

[Mr. Peabody]

15 hours ago, Popestar said:

I also got a plane off the ground...but crashed upon attempting to land.  I was around 80 m/s, which I'm guessing is too fast.  And my descent was probably too steep.  Anybody have tips on flying?  Turning, landing, etc.?  Again, I can get off the ground...but it does me no good if I can't land.

Flyable aircraft are deceptively difficult to design with caveman restrictions and are invariably deathtraps for the pilots who fly them.

Below is the best design that I was able to create, and even it was dangerously under-powered and prone to stalls. The best advice that I am able to provide you with is to use forward winglets for pitch control instead of rear ailerons, which decrease lift.

[Popestar]

So I went about this morning trying to design a "drivable aircraft"...and I succeeded!  I was able to use the design shown below (with a minor tweak to where the landing gear struts are) and drive to the SPH and collect science points.  Using this design, I will be able to finish off the KSC points collection, and I will be able to hit the Admin Building, VAB, Mission Control, Astronaut Complex, and Tracking Station to get the last of the science points.  It isn't much (20.4 per location, and that will probably decrease a bit as I hit every building), but that would be (if it stays stable) another 102 science points.  That alone is enough to get me to Miniaturization, and with what I have now would leave me with 56.1 science points.

Once I am done with the KSC, I'm going to see about taking this design on a bit of a road trip.  It ain't stable, and driving it is a real pain in the Kerbehind.  But if I can get this thing driving away from the KSC, I might be able to pick up more science points before I even think about going back into space.  I know - flying would be faster.  It's also far more dangerous and far less stable.  So I'll do what I gotta do. 

 

[Popestar]

So I finished driving all over the KSC, and I now have miniaturization.  And 76.5 science points left.  I'm going to take the "car" and drive it north into another biome and see if I can squeeze a few more science points out before I go into space again.  I need to pick up Electrics so I can launch the core of my impending space station into orbit (I need a probe core, batteries, and solar panels), and then after that I can think about doing the Mun.  Well, after the space station and getting enough fuel tanks up there to make it do-able.  Then again, I may comb through a few other threads out here (Mun Cheapskate, for example) to see if I can pull it off right now.  Need those tasty science points!

[Zamolxes77]

Here's a caveman SSTO. Unfortunately the requirements to build it don't apply to this challenge, since you need upgraded SPH (88 parts) and runway (30.5 tons craft). But maybe someone can draw some inspiration to make a suborbital plane, to get to those darn contracts !

https://kerbalx.com/Zamolxes77/T3-SSTO-Minerva

This challenge seems like a lot of fun, I think I'll try it too !

[fourfa]

TL;DR: KIS/KAS Lite in stock.  Inventory system moved into the base game from BG, ability to construct on EVA on the ground or in space, possibly rebuild ships in orbit with fresh fuel tanks, get around part/weight limits in all sorts of ways.  Going to mean significant changes to the Cave clan.  Might even need to figure an even harder challenge, or just disallow things to keep the challenge static.

[Superfluous J]

45 minutes ago, fourfa said:

EVA on the ground or in space,

There's the problem of getting the Kerbal in space though, because they can't exit pods.

Though maybe that will be easier with some rudimentary ground construction.

[Mr. Peabody]

2 hours ago, fourfa said:

TL;DR: KIS/KAS Lite in stock.  Inventory system moved into the base game from BG, ability to construct on EVA on the ground or in space, possibly rebuild ships in orbit with fresh fuel tanks, get around part/weight limits in all sorts of ways.  Going to mean significant changes to the Cave clan.  Might even need to figure an even harder challenge, or just disallow things to keep the challenge static.

That might spell the end of my tenure as challenge moderator. I haven't the time at present to rework the challenge structure to any significant degree.

[Popestar]

So I borrowed a concept from another thread where I was talking about not being able to get off the ground in a plane, and I modified it slightly to be within the challenge parameters and use the parts I have available.  I flew that puppy to the Island Airfield and set her down on the runway there, and I picked up some Science Points.  I was having an issue getting her off the ground with the Science Junior, so when I was done there I was 0.6 Science Points shy of 90.  So I threw a command pod with the science Junior and a Mystery Goo container on the launchpad and picked up a whopping 1.8 Science Points.  With 90 and change, I was able to purchase Electrics, which will now put me on the path to getting my space station up and running!  Woot!

Images from the flight in the spoilers!

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

45 minutes ago, Mr. Peabody said:

That might spell the end of my tenure as challenge moderator. I haven't the time at present to rework the challenge structure to any significant degree.

What?  No!  With no moderator, who is going to approve people going through the challenge?  I mean, at the moment, it's purely in self-interest.  But in the future!  Think of the children!

[Mr. Peabody]

2 hours ago, Popestar said:

What?  No!  With no moderator, who is going to approve people going through the challenge?  I mean, at the moment, it's purely in self-interest.  But in the future!  Think of the children!

Don't worry. I'll find a trusty caveman to carry the torch when I'm gone.

[fourfa]

Maybe trve cave kerbals are only allowed to send things to launchpad/runway in containers...  Build on the lawn, refuel planes by swapping out drop tanks, etc

[Flying dutchman]

Not sure if legal, but i Tried docking a two part rocket togheter on the launchpad. Each part was 18 tonnes and one was put on the launchpad from the vab, and the other was rolled there from the runway. Docking was succesfull but as soon as it was docked everything exploded for some reason..

[Zamolxes77]

3 hours ago, Flying dutchman said:

Not sure if legal, but i Tried docking a two part rocket togheter on the launchpad. Each part was 18 tonnes and one was put on the launchpad from the vab, and the other was rolled there from the runway. Docking was succesfull but as soon as it was docked everything exploded for some reason..

The launchpad got destroyed since your vehicle was too heavy. Is normal. You have to build them on the lawn, grass is tougher than concrete

[Popestar]

Not sure if I should post this here or in Gameplay, but...

When I replace the Mk1 Command Pod/Parachute/Science Gizmos with an OKTO/Battery Bank/Solar panels, I can't get into orbit.  I start the gravity turn at 50 m/s (approximately), and the rocket starts spiraling out of control.  I've tried no fins, 2 fins, 4 fins, 6 fins...all the same issue.  The OKTO has basic SAS, so I can't hit the Prograde button and let it take over from there.  But if I leave a Command Pod with Jeb (no upgraded SAS for him either), the rocket sails fine.

Am I doing something wrong with the OKTO?  Is it just not possible to use automated probe cores in Caveman due to stability in flight?

[IncongruousGoat]

22 hours ago, Popestar said:

Not sure if I should post this here or in Gameplay, but...

When I replace the Mk1 Command Pod/Parachute/Science Gizmos with an OKTO/Battery Bank/Solar panels, I can't get into orbit.  I start the gravity turn at 50 m/s (approximately), and the rocket starts spiraling out of control.  I've tried no fins, 2 fins, 4 fins, 6 fins...all the same issue.  The OKTO has basic SAS, so I can't hit the Prograde button and let it take over from there.  But if I leave a Command Pod with Jeb (no upgraded SAS for him either), the rocket sails fine.

Am I doing something wrong with the OKTO?  Is it just not possible to use automated probe cores in Caveman due to stability in flight?

It's definitely possible for cavemen to use probes - they just need to be designed such that they're aerodynamically stable on the way up. Basically, make the probe as smooth and pointy as you can via use of fairings, nosecones, or structural adapters, and if possible put some fins on the bottom of the booster. The idea here is to get the center of drag of your rocket behind the center of mass by keeping the front low-drag and putting (relatively) high-drag fins at the back.

[Popestar]

2 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

It's definitely possible for cavemen to use probes - they just need to be designed such that they're aerodynamically stable on the way up. Basically, make the probe as smooth and pointy as you can via use of fairings, nosecones, or structural adapters, and if possible put some fins on the bottom of the booster. The idea here is to get the center of drag of your rocket behind the center of mass by keeping the front low-drag and putting (relatively) high-drag fins at the back.

So I went back and, using your advice, did a partial redesign of my Venture rocket, paying attention to center of mass and aerodynamics of the fins.  I thought about moving the winglets up the rocket shaft, but I left them where they were.

I then launched...and got her into orbit!  The end result is pretty ugly - a Probe Core, some solar panels, rechargeable battery, structural fuselage and 4 docking ports, but she's up there.

The interesting thing about this is that, during flight, she decided to pitch almost completely west...without any input from me.  I would have preferred to have her moving east, but it is what it is.  I guess I could have gone back to the VAB and rotated her 180 degrees, but I'm ok with the 160 degree inclination here.

She has an Ap of 139km and a Pe of 127km, which I think should be ok for now.  I may have to correct the inclination at some point once I get some command pods and fuel tanks up there, but she's sitting good for now!

Edited November 27, 2020 by Popestar

[IncongruousGoat]

5 hours ago, Popestar said:

The interesting thing about this is that, during flight, she decided to pitch almost completely west...without any input from me.  I would have preferred to have her moving east, but it is what it is.  I guess I could have gone back to the VAB and rotated her 180 degrees, but I'm ok with the 160 degree inclination here.

For reference, there is actually a reason to want to launch east instead of west from the KSC. Launching east, you gain about 100 m/s of dV from Kerbin's rotation, while you lose the same amount if you launch west. It's not a huge amount but it does make a difference, especially when you're trying to maximize payload to LKO.

[Popestar]

1 hour ago, IncongruousGoat said:

For reference, there is actually a reason to want to launch east instead of west from the KSC. Launching east, you gain about 100 m/s of dV from Kerbin's rotation, while you lose the same amount if you launch west. It's not a huge amount but it does make a difference, especially when you're trying to maximize payload to LKO.

Yeah, I knew that.  I was just so happy to get it into orbit that I was like "It is here and I'm not messing with it".  Now I just have to do the docking tutorials so I can get command pods and fuel tanks on it.

[Popestar]

Quick question:  what's a ladder drive?  Saw it mentioned in the first post, and I realized I have no clue what that is.

[Superfluous J]

11 minutes ago, Popestar said:

Quick question:  what's a ladder drive?  Saw it mentioned in the first post, and I realized I have no clue what that is.

I don't know the details because I've never done it, but a Kerbal on a ladder climbing against something that blocks them (say the starter strut) puts a force on the craft. Which means you can get to orbit for free, with an EVA'd Kerbal to boot.

[JAFO]

5 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I don't know the details because I've never done it, but a Kerbal on a ladder climbing against something that blocks them (say the starter strut) puts a force on the craft. Which means you can get to orbit for free, with an EVA'd Kerbal to boot.

Assuming that even still works. It was a very old bug. May have been fixed by now.