The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge Continued

[DerekL1963]

14 hours ago, Robin Patenall said:

Quick question, does anybody know if using a mod like KSP_PartVolume to make more parts available to be moved using EVA construction would make the attempt a MODDED one?

That would be Jacob's call, but I'd say it's modded as you're changing parts.
 

14 hours ago, Robin Patenall said:

I've got myself in a corner where I'm going to have to throw away fuel because I'm separating a lander and I don't have enough tank space on the mother ship to remove the excess fuel

If a lander has too much fuel, that sounds less like you need a mod and more like you need to redesign your lander.

[DennisB]

15 hours ago, Robin Patenall said:

I've got myself in a corner where I'm going to have to throw away fuel because I'm separating a lander and I don't have enough tank space on the mother ship to remove the excess fuel and save it (I think I have way too much fuel but throwing it away goes against the grain).

Do you separate the lander for a mission, or do you throw it away finally, because you don't need it, and you want to reduce mass? In the second case, you could wait with the separation, until you burned out the excess fuel.

[Robin Patenall]

2 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

That would be Jacob's call, but I'd say it's modded as you're changing parts.

Yeah... I suspect you're right. I checked and didn't see much about using EVA construction at all (I suppose it's quite recent ).

54 minutes ago, DennisB said:

Do you separate the lander for a mission, or do you throw it away finally, because you don't need it, and you want to reduce mass?

It's for a mission, specifically it's my Laythe SSTO with it's extended fuel tanks.

Basically, I did Tylo and Vall, then sent the Vall lander with one of my main drive cores off to do Bop / Pol and rendezvous with the main ship, travelling separately, in a Laythe parking orbit. This needs about 2km/s of dV to push the lander about and the drive, with just the lander on it, was ludicrously over powered, so I pumped out as much fuel to the main ship as I could (it still has > 5km/s).

Then I looked at taking the main ship and SSTO to Laythe where I wanted the SSTO in polar orbit (for science reasons) and the main ship in equatorial orbit (for getting back to Kerbin easily reasons). During my planning I couldn't find a decent way of doing this without brute forcing the inclination change at the edge of Laythe's SOI and, because I was also skittish about circularising via aerobreak, I gave the SSTO extended tanks with >1000m/s of dV to do both manoeuvres.

Except I don't need it. I've found a gravity assist (thanks Tylo) that massively reduces the cost of the inclination change and I am feeling much more confident about the aerobreak, so if I wanted to reduce the fuel levels so I don't leave as much in a useless polar orbit and might use for another Vall biome or Laythe landing. But, no room...

Actually getting rid of it is easy, I have drain valves I can fit during EVA, but throwing away fuel...

Honestly, I'm being silly about it. I way overspec'ed the ship, the bits of my mother-ship that need to go back to Kerbin should have >5km/s of dV while waiting for a transfer window in the Laythe parking orbit.  

[DerekL1963]

On 10/7/2023 at 7:23 AM, Robin Patenall said:

Actually getting rid of it is easy, I have drain valves I can fit during EVA, but throwing away fuel...

I get that, but adding a mod in mid run strikes me as being contrary to the spirit of the challenge...

[Robin Patenall]

Hi @JacobJHC

I’ve eventually completed my Jool 5 entry. I believe it matches the criterion for a Jebediah level DLC entry. I’ve done a mission report thread and the imgur album can be found here. I apologise for the length

Summary
Which game versions did you use?

• KSP 1.12.5.3190
• Breaking Ground (BreakingGround-DLC 1.7.1)
• Making History (MakingHistory-DLC 1.12.1)

What mods did you use, if any?
Visual, sound and informational only, so I hope I’ve managed a DLC rating. Full list in the spoiler. 

Spoiler

Visuals and Sounds

• Astronomer's Visual Pack (AstronomersVisualPack 3:v4.13)
• Astronomer's Visual Pack-2k Textures (AVP-2kTextures v1.13)
• Chatterer (Chatterer 0.9.99)
• Chatterer Extended (ChattererExtended 0.6.2)
• Docking Port Sound FX (DockingPortSoundFX v2.1.12)
• Environmental Visual Enhancements Redux (EnvironmentalVisualEnhancements 3:1.11.7.1)
• Minimum Ambient Lighting Updated (MinAmbLightUpd 1.2.6.2)
• Parallax (Parallax 2.0.6)
• Parallax - Stock Planet Textures (Parallax-StockTextures 2.0.0)
• Parallax - Stock Scatter Textures (Parallax-StockScatterTextures 2.0.1)
• Scatterer (Scatterer 3:v0.0838)
• Scatterer Default Config (Scatterer-config 3:v0.0838)
• Scatterer Sunflare (Scatterer-sunflare 3:v0.0838)
• Stock Waterfall Effects (StockWaterfallEffects 0.7.0)
• Waterfall Core (Waterfall 0.9.0)

Informational / QOL

• [x] Science! Continued (xScienceContinued 6.0.2)
• Draggable Navball (DraggableNavball v1.0.1.5)
• Easy Vessel Switch (EVS) (EasyVesselSwitch 2.3)
• Kerbal Engineer Redux (KerbalEngineerRedux 1.1.9.0)
• Maneuver Node Evolved (ManeuverNodeEvolved 5.0)
• NavHud (NavHudRenewed 1.4.0.5)
• Precise Editor Continued (PreciseEditor 1:1.5.0.1)
• RCS Build Aid Continued (RCSBuildAidCont 1:0.10.0)
• S.A.V.E Resaved (SAVE 1.11.0.4)
• Sensible Screenshot (SensibleScreenshot 1.2.5.4)
• SOC: Simple Orbit Calculator (SimpleOrbitCalculator 1.6.0.1)
• The Janitor's Closet (JanitorsCloset 0.3.8)
• Trajectories (Trajectories v2.4.5.2)
• Transfer Window Planner (TransferWindowPlanner v1.8.0.0)
• VABReorienter (VABReorienter 1.2)

Dependencies

• B9 Part Switch (B9PartSwitch v2.20.0)
• ClickThrough Blocker (ClickThroughBlocker 1:2.1.10.21)
• Harmony 2 (Harmony2 2.2.1.0)
• Kopernicus Planetary System Modifier (Kopernicus 2:release-1.12.1-189)
• MagiCore (MagiCore 1.3.2.5)
• ModularFlightIntegrator (ModularFlightIntegrator 1.2.10.0)
• Module Manager (ModuleManager 4.2.3)
• SpaceTux Library (SpaceTuxLibrary 0.0.8.5)
• Toolbar Controller (ToolbarController 1:0.1.9.11)
   

How many Kerbals are on the mission?
None

Okay, how many crew are on the mission?

Six, from left to right:

• Pinkie Pie, engineer and astrodynamics
• Twilight Sparkle, scientist and mission specialist for Laythe. Landed on Laythe.
• Fluttershy, scientist and mission specialist for Bop. Landed on Bop and Pol.
• Bon Bon, scientist and mission specialist for Vall. Landed on Tylo and Vall.
• Rarity, pilot and mission specialist for Pol. Landed on Vall, Bop and Pol
• Rainbow Dash, pilot and mission specialist for Tylo. Landed on Tylo and Laythe

How many launches were needed to start your mission from Kerbin?
Seventeen (half of which were fuel)
 
How much did your mission cost?
2,380,480.70 funds

Did you need a refuelling mission?
Oh God, no. The mission was seriously overbuilt, 8.6km/s in deltaV for the return.

Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

• Three relay satellites with RA-100 antennas
• Science satellite to get science near Jool and flying high at Jool

Important photos

Spoiler

Ready to go

Tylo - Rainbow Dash (Pilot and Mission Specialist) and Bon Bon (Scientist)

Vall - Bon Bon (Scientist and Mission Specialist) and Rarity (Pilot)

Bop -  Fluttershy (Scientist and Mission Specialist) and Rarity (Pilot)

Laythe - Twilight Sparkle (Scientist and Mission Specialist) and Rainbow Dash (Pilot)

Pol - Rarity (Pilot and Mission Specialist) and Fluttershy (Scientist)

Science recovered

Random Notes

• The stock deltaV / TWR calculator really didn’t like the ship, the one in KER was much more reliable (which is why I tended to leave that tab open)
• I got better at keeping the resources tab open, but I did keep forgetting. I hope there’s enough info, I do have more screenshots if needed.
• The Mobile Processing Lab is very OP if you have time.
• I was surprised by the amount of science I recovered. I put this down to:
  • Collecting each experiment twice for return
  • Taking the telescope with me
  • Being completionist on Pol and Bop
  • Doing polar orbits of Laythe and Vall
  • “Landing” in four of Laythe’s biomes / situations  
• I can think of dozens of ways I could have done better.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Robin Patenall
Added science recovered image

[king of nowhere]

@JacobJHC I was thinking on another jool 5 science mission, after discovering by accident that there are ways to get more science than I thought possible - namely, i accidentally discovered that if I pick a sample with my kerbal on top of a splashed down plane, or swimming around the splashed down plane, it counts as two different samples. so this time i was planning to actually get all the possible science available, by landing an aircraft carrier on laythe and getting the exploration plane over it to get "landed" samples from water biomes. possibly throw in some circumnavigations too. and use magnetometer and eva experiments, that were not available

I noticed, also accidentally, that some experiments will give more science if run multiple times. according to this table, for example, I can run mistery goo observation up to 4 times before i completely stop getting science.

my question is, should I try to gather the same experiment multiple times? or is that against the spirit of the science grab?

 

P.S. I won't run that mission for a few month yet anyway. I need to finish my latest grand tour first.

Edited October 21, 2023 by king of nowhere

[DennisB]

33 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

namely, i accidentally discovered that if I pick a sample with my kerbal on top of a splashed down plane, or swimming around the splashed down plane, it counts as two different samples. so this time i was planning to actually get all the possible science available, by landing an aircraft carrier on laythe and getting the exploration plane over it to get "landed" samples from water biomes. possibly throw in some circumnavigations too. and use magnetometer and eva experiments, that were not available

I noticed, also accidentally, that some experiments will give more science if run multiple times. according to this table, for example, I can run mistery goo observation up to 4 times before i completely stop getting science.

my question is, should I try to gather the same experiment multiple times? or is that against the spirit of the science grab?

These are interesting questions, and I'm also curious for the answer. After I did a similar mission on Eve, the next logical step for me would be this one. I want to start with the construction next weekend, after my vacation. I think, I will try to do it in a similar style, like my Eve mission. Especially, if you try it seriously to get everything possible, I won't have any chance to beat you. (I read your mission report of the record mission a few weeks ago.)

The letters in the challenge rules say, the earned science scores count, which would mean, everything in your post would be a valid method to get a better result. Let's see, what's in the spirit of the challenge.

[Robin Patenall]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

my question is, should I try to gather the same experiment multiple times? or is that against the spirit of the science grab?

I certainly hope its not against the spirit, as in my recent run I was very careful to run every experiment three times if possible, twice for return to Kerbin and once for loading into a mobile processing lab (which didn't count towards my score as it was transmitted). The fact that you get some extra science for re-runs of some experiments has never been hidden, it just needs planning in bringing something that can store the science (say multiple experiment storage containers or remote guidance units) and bring it home.

I got quite practised at running science bay / mystery goo / surface sample storing it all in one container, restoring the experiments and doing it again (twice) for the other containers. Doing this for all the Bop and Pol biomes and four landed / splashed down  situations on Laythe were a significant contribution to my final total.

[king of nowhere]

by the way, I tried the same method to see if I could trick the game to think I am landed on jool, but no such luck. standing on another ship only works on water. i even tried strapping 100+ parachutes to the contraption to make it fall so slowly it would count as standing still under normal circumstances, but it wasn't enough.

[Engineer Gaming]

damn, my main mods are all banned (Interstellar, NFP, OPT and B9A)

[JacobJHC]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:47 PM, Robin Patenall said:

Quick question, does anybody know if using a mod like KSP_PartVolume to make more parts available to be moved using EVA construction would make the attempt a MODDED one?

I've got myself in a corner where I'm going to have to throw away fuel because I'm separating a lander and I don't have enough tank space on the mother ship to remove the excess fuel and save it (I think I have way too much fuel but throwing it away goes against the grain). I thought I could rearrange some tanks via EVA construction, but I've been playing with KSP_PartVolume too long and forgot that none of the 2.5m tanks (specifically the Rockomax X200-8 Fuel Tank) can be affected by an engineer.

I'd like not to throw away fuel, but I'd prefer not to have a MODDED entry when I don't need to.

If it's making parts not otherwise movable movable then I'd say that would could as a modded attempt.

[JacobJHC]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:35 AM, king of nowhere said:

by landing an aircraft carrier on laythe

 

On 10/21/2023 at 8:35 AM, king of nowhere said:

my question is, should I try to gather the same experiment multiple times? or is that against the spirit of the science grab?

It is a science grab after all, go for it!

On 10/21/2023 at 11:38 AM, Robin Patenall said:

I certainly hope its not against the spirit, as in my recent run I was very careful to run every experiment three times if possible, twice for return to Kerbin and once for loading into a mobile processing lab (which didn't count towards my score as it was transmitted). The fact that you get some extra science for re-runs of some experiments has never been hidden, it just needs planning in bringing something that can store the science (say multiple experiment storage containers or remote guidance units) and bring it home.

I got quite practised at running science bay / mystery goo / surface sample storing it all in one container, restoring the experiments and doing it again (twice) for the other containers. Doing this for all the Bop and Pol biomes and four landed / splashed down  situations on Laythe were a significant contribution to my final total.

I've begun reviewing your mission and I am really digging the launch assembly chart and the ship's overall design. I'll try to have it finished reviewed soon and get you on the leaderboard!

[Robin Patenall]

9 minutes ago, JacobJHC said:

If it's making parts not otherwise movable movable then I'd say that would could as a modded attempt.

Thank you for the clarification.

I didn't end up using it in the end, leaving the extra fuel in my Laythe lander's long range tanks, which gave me the opportunity to land on Laythe near the pole, then take off  again, re-dock to the tanks, refuel and then land at the planned landing spot near the equator. I really didn't need to be as miserly with the fuel as I was (as will become rather obvious by the end, I'm pretty sure I've seen people start with less dV that I ended with), it was the oxidizer I'd have preferred to have more of.

[JacobJHC]

On 10/18/2023 at 2:31 PM, Robin Patenall said:

I’ve eventually completed my Jool 5 entry. I believe it matches the criterion for a Jebediah level DLC entry

Congratulations @Robin Patenall on completing the Jool 5 Challenge on Jeb's Level with 61174.6 science! I think your mission thread is one of the better organized I've seen, I really enjoyed the chart to help me keep track of the launches, the costs, and so on. The finished ship itself was very versatile, and I do hope it gets an additional voyage someday. The thoroughness of how you broke apart the ship and used the drive cores as independent vessels at times was genius, and I've definitely learned a few things from your mission I might incorporate into one of my own some day. The Emerald Star did an outstanding job, and I'll gladly add it to the leaderboard now.

[DennisB]

On 3/17/2018 at 12:03 AM, JacobJHC said:

JEBEDIAH'S LEVEL: collect as much Science as possible!  Your score is the number of science points from the Jool system only, returned to Kerbin (not transmitted).  Only stock experiments count for this!

What about the science points from the vessel recovery? They show up in the list at the end of the mission, they are related to Jool, but they don't come from a science experiment. Do they count to the final score? And what about surface deployed science?

[JacobJHC]

9 hours ago, DennisB said:

What about the science points from the vessel recovery? They show up in the list at the end of the mission, they are related to Jool, but they don't come from a science experiment. Do they count to the final score? And what about surface deployed science?

Really good point regarding the vessel recovery science, although there is science for recovering vessels that have landed on planets or moons, which would be Jool related. Honestly I think that since it probably has been included in every mission previously that we just keep accepting it, although I do see you point. For deployed science the science counts but do keep track of how much is making its way back to Kerbin.

[DennisB]

Tonight, my first spaceplane made its first successful ascent from Laythe surface to orbit. That was really tough. I still don't know what is tougher, Laythe or designing a spaceplane?

To make the prototypes for the vacuum bodies wasn't really difficult.

To make an airplane, which can fly around on Laythe and take off and land on land and water, was also reasonable. But improving it, to reach orbit....  It's still not over yet, because I have to figure out, how to change it from one configuration to the other during the mission. And that is just the beginning. 

[camacju]

For the past nine months I've been working with @Ultimate Steve on a grand tour mission: 

This doesn't quite make it on the low mass leaderboard, but I think it's pretty cool regardless. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by camacju

[king of nowhere]

On 11/8/2023 at 3:03 AM, JacobJHC said:

Really good point regarding the vessel recovery science, although there is science for recovering vessels that have landed on planets or moons, which would be Jool related. Honestly I think that since it probably has been included in every mission previously that we just keep accepting it, although I do see you point. For deployed science the science counts but do keep track of how much is making its way back to Kerbin.

in my mission where i still hold the current record i didn't get that vessel recovery science. i sent the mothership back to kerbin orbit and sent up a shuttle to land the crew, specifically to avoid faking the result in this way.

no, just kidding. i sent the mothership back to kerbin orbit and sent up a shuttle because in all my planning I completely forgot to think on how the crew would land. still, the unintended result was there.

I think, anyway, removing that small science contribution should be trivial, if it was ever needed.

[JacobJHC]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:49 AM, camacju said:

This doesn't quite make it on the low mass leaderboard

HOW.

This mission is so perfect I don't even know where to start. Seriously. There isn't a single aspect of that entire mission that wasn't meticulously thought out, and you even landed standing. My mind is blown. I think this would fit on the low mass leaderboard but if you would prefer it in Level 1 that works too.

[camacju]

3 hours ago, JacobJHC said:

I think this would fit on the low mass leaderboard

At the core it's really similar to the low mass Jool 5 that I already did, I guess it's up to you to decide where it fits better (you're the challenge manager after all) but please remember to also credit Ultimate Steve (:

3 hours ago, JacobJHC said:

This mission is so perfect I don't even know where to start. Seriously.

about that...

There's actually a fair amount of improvement in the mission. Once we got it below 8 tons the primary focus was to preserve our sanity while flying it. We possibly could have gotten it below 7 tons but this already took nine months and I'm unsure if the maximally optimized version would ever be finished.

[king of nowhere]

16 hours ago, camacju said:

 this already took nine months

that's why i see your new records only every once in a while.

it took me nine months for the rss/kerbalism grand tour, and it involved 360 years, with regular inspections of the nuclear reactors every three years, with a very laggy ship, with 47 recorded bugs getting in the way. nine months for a simple stock system grand tour is mind blowing.

[camacju]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

that's why i see your new records only every once in a while

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

nine months for a simple stock system grand tour is mind blowing.

The issue was that it wasn't a simple grand tour. Even something like designing the structure connecting the landers to the main craft was a puzzle that required several days, and we still didn't get the optimal end point as we stopped on something that would be relatively user friendly. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by camacju

[DennisB]

Today I made my first successful ascent from Jool's lower atmosphere to orbit. It took so long, because I had to change the wings on my plane, and something went wrong. Even if I used the symmetry tool and the parts of the old plane, it was uncontrollable on the ground above 30m/s. So I had to rebuild it completely and went through the entire testing and optimization process for the Laythe configuration.

I think, I will work on it further, because I'm still not really happy with it, and I haven't tested the descent and the science collection yet, only with an older construction.

Now I'm curious. How much mass had Not Albatros in its Jool configuration? Watching the video, I think my plane is much lighter, and it has a completely different concept-

On 11/29/2020 at 5:47 PM, king of nowhere said:

4A: inside Jool

It took a loooong time aerobraking, but eventually I shed enough speed. I discovered that the conditions to survive a Jool reentry are quite strict, and a slightly wrong trajectory can still make Not Albatross explode.

Reaching the lower atmosphere of the gas giant is a grueling ordeal of burning in the atmosphere with your heating indicators inching ever closer to the breaking limit, hoping to have made no mistakes and powerless to do anything about it. It's also a lenghty process, over 10 minutes with accelerated time. I already included the video, greatly accelerated, as presentation for Not Albatross on kerbalx, but here I include the long version because, well, it's quite an experience. Video is cut short because, as free user, I have a 15 minutes limit.

Includes sending Val out of her cockpit to get a crew report. I have no idea what kind of science one can hope to get by listening to a pilot hanging for their life from a ladder on a speeding plane, buffeted by winds faster than sound and uncomfortably close to burning up. Actually, on retrospect, we did get some science: we proved that kerbals are indeed made of iron, that Val is capable of holding herself in position on the ladder against winds at 500 m/s and close to atmospheric pressure. What kind of stamina would that take? We also learned several new and interesting curses while listening to her open communication while at it.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, DennisB said:

Today I made my first successful ascent from Jool's lower atmosphere to orbit. It took so long, because I had to change the wings on my plane, and something went wrong. Even if I used the symmetry tool and the parts of the old plane, it was uncontrollable on the ground above 30m/s. So I had to rebuild it completely and went through the entire testing and optimization process for the Laythe configuration.

I think, I will work on it further, because I'm still not really happy with it, and I haven't tested the descent and the science collection yet, only with an older construction.

Now I'm curious. How much mass had Not Albatros in its Jool configuration? Watching the video, I think my plane is much lighter, and it has a completely different concept-

it's been a while, but iirc somewhat over 100 tons. the final plane is around 30 tons.

nowadays I am a lot more experienced and I recognize going reusable there was a suboptimal choice. Not Albatross is a perfectly fine laythe plane, to turn it into a jool plane I had to add somewhere between 80 and 100 tons. I could have made a disposable jool lander for less than that, and save mass overall.