Elon Musk and the NTSB

[mikegarrison]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-in-open-feud-with-u-s-safety-board-over-crash-probe/

Quote

Tesla’s tense relationship with the National Transportation Safety Board boiled over Thursday with both sides accusing the other of making improper disclosures regarding a fatal accident under investigation.

“It’s been clear in our conversations with the NTSB that they’re more concerned with press headlines than actually promoting safety,” the automaker said in a statement.

The NTSB took the unusual step of stripping the carmaker of its role in an investigation of a fatal crash involving one of its vehicles, saying the electric-car maker failed to abide by an agreement not to disclose information while the probe was underway.

Tesla responded by saying it would make “an official complaint to Congress” about the agency. “We will also be issuing a Freedom of Information Act request to understand the reasoning behind their focus on the safest cars in America while they ignore the cars that are the least safe,” the company said. “Perhaps there is a sound rationale for this, but we cannot imagine what that could possibly be.”

Sometimes Elon is just too much Elon. He's being way too defensive here, which only makes him look like he's got something to hide.

[DerekL1963]

2 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

Sometimes Elon is just too much Elon. He's being way too defensive here, which only makes him look like he's got something to hide.

Elon loves playing to the crowds.  He's also obsessed with control his image and the spin.  People with serious work to do, and used to cooperation from the manufacturers, are not at all amused by this behavior.

[YNM]

8 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

... and used to cooperation from the manufacturers...

Wait, what ?

In what sense ?

[DerekL1963]

Just now, YNM said:

Wait, what ?

In what sense ?

Relative to this case?  Keeping their mouths shut and not releasing information related to the investigation.

[mikegarrison]

7 minutes ago, YNM said:

Wait, what ?

In what sense ?

Most manufacturers co-operate very closely with the NTSB. They provide technical information, access to technical experts, and keep quiet about the investigation until the NTSB releases their report.

(Personal note: I have contributed to analysis of an accident investigation. I was once tasked to determine how much hail an airplane flew through based on the sound recorded on the cockpit voice recorder. It was an interesting analysis. Of course I could only give an estimate with fairly wide error bars.)

[YNM]

6 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

They provide technical information, access to technical experts...

Ah, OK.

I don't know who's shooting at their own leg here... maybe both ?

[Mr. Peabody]

(If I owned one.) I wouldn't be comfortable with the government rooting around my company either. Not that you have anything to hide but they sure are good at making a mountain out of a molehill as we've seen recently.

[Space_Kadet]

Really, the U.S. Government should do more to accommodate Tesla and (SpaceX for that matter). Most U.S. based auto industries have fled the U.S. and outsourced the industry (the majority of it) across international borders. Here we have a new automobile manufacturer (last time that happened was the Saturn (1990–2010) and the time before that was Jeep (1963) and I only mention these two because they are the only ones that count...) who produces in the U.S. and has an international market, and is worth more than Ford... also, when was the last time a U.S. based company started a viable space program?

 

Tesla (2003–present)

General Motors (1908–present)

Ford (1903–present)

That's it for automobile manufactures in the U.S. Everything else is a part of a part, or owned by these three... Not jumping on the bandwagon. But Tesla has a great safety record compared the gas/diesel cars. Just a few weeks ago I have seen a tow truck hauling away a Ford Mondeo that was obviously on fire and smashed in like it hit something. I think the  NTSB is the dog that would bite the hand that feeds it.

 

 

 

[YNM]

38 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

I wouldn't be comfortable with the government rooting around my company either.

What, a slight transparency being bad ?

Or is it the US govt that don't have enough transparency ?

I mean... it's something for the masses... at least the masses or the one that the masses trusts in should know the truth.

7 minutes ago, Space_Kadet said:

But Tesla has a great safety record compared the gas/diesel cars.

In what units ?

[Space_Kadet]

22 minutes ago, YNM said:

In what units ?

1

 

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory. Approximately one percent of all cars tested by the federal government achieve 5 stars. NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5, however safety levels better than 5 stars are captured in the overall Vehicle Safety Score (VSS) provided to manufacturers, where the Model S achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars.

 

Goto this website (NHTSA) and type "Tesla" into the search bar.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/ratings#ratings-2011-present

(2011 - Present, the NHTSA redefined there terms and definitions of "safety")

So the "units" you're asking for is regulated by the NHTSA.

(Or I could be a D!#% and just say stars, the unit is stars...)

Safety is a subjective term. The NHTSA decided on the definitions. So they made it an Objective measure. Measuring their appropriate levels. and grading from the score determined by there definitions. So to know the units. reference the NHTSA. (The agency currently probing Elon Musk)

Edited April 14, 2018 by Space_Kadet
to be more clear.

[mikegarrison]

53 minutes ago, Space_Kadet said:

Safety is a subjective term. The NHTSA decided on the definitions. So they made it an Objective measure. Measuring their appropriate levels. and grading from the score determined by there definitions. So to know the units. reference the NHTSA. (The agency currently probing Elon Musk)

So much wrong here.

1) The NTSB is the National Transport Safety Board. They investigate transportation accidents in the US (and all over the world). Cars, planes, trains, ships, trucks ... they investigate them all. They are not the same people as the NHTSA, who test cars for airbags and stuff. However, it was NTSB accident investigations that led to the recommendations for seat belts, airbags, side air bags, head restraints, crumple zones, etc. etc. The NTSB investigates accidents and then makes recommendations designed to keep them from repeating in the future.

2) The NTSB is not "probing Elon Musk". They are investigating a fatal crash. Flying in a commercial airplane is safer than riding in any car, including a Tesla, and yet that doesn't mean the NTSB ignores airplane crashes. Instead, they investigate every one, because their goal is to improve safety of an already safe transportation system. They do not say, "Oh, we haven't had an airline fatality in the last four years, so the next time one happens we'll just ignore it. After all, airlines are already safe enough."

3) Although it is sometimes uncomfortable, experienced players in the transportation industry work with the NTSB. They are very good at what they do, and their work is good for all of us in the long run. Tesla is betraying their lack of experience here. And they are making me wonder whether they care more about their public image than they do about possibly improving the safety of their products.

[YNM]

1 hour ago, Space_Kadet said:

So the "units" you're asking for is regulated by the NHTSA.

No, I mean units.

Generally, there are two units used :

Absolute fatality numbers (so the # of person killed in a given period, regardless of usage)

Fatalities per km travelled (you have to travel *that* far to get yourself killed, statistically).

No 5-star rated car can escape you from being killed when stranded in a level crossing.

 

HINT : No car manufacturers care about these number, because they are as uncontrollable as where would the butterfly flap their wings. The ones who (*should*) care with these numbers are the public authority.

Edited April 14, 2018 by YNM

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

4 hours ago, YNM said:

 

 

Powered two-wheelers 52.593...

So, instead of robocars first the should release robobikers.

[YNM]

4 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Powered two-wheelers 52.593...

... per billion km, that's one every 19 million km (11.8 million mi).

[kerbiloid]

10 minutes ago, YNM said:

.. per billion km, that's one every 19 million km (11.8 million mi).

Anyway they should start with the most dangerous case - make the bikers robotic.

[YNM]

12 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Anyway they should start with the most dangerous case - make the bikers robotic.

Good reasons why in Terminator Salvation, Skynet used motorcycle-drones 

Edited April 14, 2018 by YNM

[DerekL1963]

7 hours ago, YNM said:

HINT : No car manufacturers care about these number, because they are as uncontrollable as where would the butterfly flap their wings.

If this were true - then why does your first graph show a steady descent?

[YNM]

12 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

If this were true - then why does your first graph show a steady descent?

Reported Road Casualities Great Britain, annual report : 2016

Hint - not much to do with the cars.

 

Spoiler

Alright, there might be something to do with the cars :

But when black's the new white, you're back to square one.

The "complete" report for 2016.

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by YNM

[DerekL1963]

2 minutes ago, YNM said:

Hint - not much to do with the cars.

Hint:  I didn't ask if it had anything to do with cars - I asked why the numbers have steadily fallen over time if they aren't controllable.  These are two entirely different questions.

Not to mention, did you not note the difference between the period covered in the graph and the period covered in the report?

This is probably the report you meant to link to to, and note the first paragraph of the conclusions 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/556406/rrcgb2015-02.pdf

 

[YNM]

1 minute ago, DerekL1963 said:

I asked why the numbers have steadily fallen over time if they aren't controllable. 

They're controllable not from the car's PoV. They're controllable through road easement, legals, and driver capabilities.

2 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

Not to mention, did you not note the difference between the period covered in the graph and the period covered in the report?

Yeah, oddly ONS only gives back to 2006 for the 2016 one (but I think you can find the slightly less meaningful versions somewhere in it).

4 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

... and note the first paragraph of the conclusions ...

Well, if the M6/A74(M)/M74 were to be demolished and returned back to A6/A74, you'd have yet more casualties.

[XB-70A]

If I'm remembering right, the legal system in the U.S. does not allow some information to be made public by the Safety Board and those concerned when the inquiry is on the way, so I could understand a removal of the manufacturer from the procedure.

 

22 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

Elon loves playing to the crowds.  He's also obsessed with control his image and the spin.  People with serious work to do, and used to cooperation from the manufacturers, are not at all amused by this behavior.

The "best" being that it works. This "Muskization" of everything attracts the crowds, and it gives a certain strength to him and his followers.

[FleshJeb]

The NTSB is the most respected accident investigation organization in the world. When you go up against them, you're probably wrong.

I did some work for Tesla, helping them navigate some local gov't regulations. They were nothing but bullies who wanted to break rules and get their way at any cost, because "Tesla is special, so you should kiss our butts". Unfortunately it worked. The worst thing to come out of it was that they pushed ahead of local people waiting to get their projects approved. Not that bad, but it's a terrible precedent.

I've been involved in helping people get into regulatory compliance my entire career. As much as some people like to crap on "gov't workers upholding stupid regulations", I've found that 90% of them are smart, capable people who really care about protecting the public and ensuring that things are fair and orderly. The vast majority of the time, they're following good rules for good reasons.

[LordFerret]

12 hours ago, Space_Kadet said:

...snip...

There is a far bigger picture involved, much of it political... poor trade regulations (though now changing), EPA, unions, pensions, cronyism.

 

As for Musk and Tesla and his other ventures; The guy is in financial troubles, and his Tesla product just isn't going to cut it. Without going into a lot of details, he will not be able to stand up against the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Kia (and others) ... if they take the full electric route ... and once China gets its program rolling they'll put him in the dirt.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, YNM said:

They're controllable not from the car's PoV. They're controllable through road easement, legals, and driver capabilities.

Yeah, oddly ONS only gives back to 2006 for the 2016 one (but I think you can find the slightly less meaningful versions somewhere in it).

Well, if the M6/A74(M)/M74 were to be demolished and returned back to A6/A74, you'd have yet more casualties.

The car can be build to maximize the occupants chance to survive an crash, modern cars tend to be pretty optimized for this all are far safer than required. 
Safety is an important feature then selling an car so lots go into it. 

However we are at the end of practical improvements for passive security and air bags, heavy diminishing return and increased cost going much farther. 
Active security outside of ABS and derived technology has not penetrated down to young drivers so we have an plateau 

[LordFerret]

5 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

However we are at the end of practical improvements for passive security and air bags, heavy diminishing return and increased cost going much farther. 
Active security outside of ABS and derived technology has not penetrated down to young drivers so we have an plateau

So what's next? Secure foam?