Kerbin Side Remastered [1.0.1] [1.7.3]

[Eskandare]

9 minutes ago, Vonnmillard said:

Can we have a North Pole Base?

Sure, I haven't added one yet because it is difficult to place statics near the poles.

[Vonnmillard]

K, but what about an Aircraft Carrier, Like in the Original Kerbin Side?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Here's a chart-shaped progress report on airports as a whole.

 

 

The red tag is the airport Bottle Rocketeer is working on.  Don't know his progress.  But now I'm down to just poking out where my region E international airport is going to be.  Then I move on to smaller regionals.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Bottle Rocketeer 500]

@AdmiralTigerclaw I am working on it right now. I just finished the terrain decal, which nicely blends with the surface, after deciding to restart the whole airport. RIght now, I am sending out a 747 to land there and find the airport's coordinates after relocating it closer to the ocean, for added realism. I am reducing the runway count to only 3 instead of 4, to help avoid collisions between planes taxiing to the tarmac from one of the two parallel runways planned. Runway lengths are as follows: 5km, about 3.2km, and 2.5km. So, for Int'l airports, how many runways do we need to have with ILS guidance? Also, do they need ILS in both directions? One final question: which landing lights should I use?

[Eskandare]

1 hour ago, Vonnmillard said:

K, but what about an Aircraft Carrier, Like in the Original Kerbin Side?

You mean Oceania, the ocean expansion I made a while back? I updated and started converting the models to driveable vessels. CVX is what came out of that. The original Kuznetsov is still under construction along with a Wasp-class, Essex-class, and fictional Toybox-class carrier submarine. 

CVX Nimitz

CVX Wasp

CVX Kuznetsov VLS system pic (sorry can't find what I did with the other pictures, especially the ones with the new textures)

CVX - Toybox 

 

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

21 minutes ago, Bottle Rocketeer 500 said:

@AdmiralTigerclaw I am working on it right now. I just finished the terrain decal, which nicely blends with the surface, after deciding to restart the whole airport. RIght now, I am sending out a 747 to land there and find the airport's coordinates after relocating it closer to the ocean, for added realism. I am reducing the runway count to only 3 instead of 4, to help avoid collisions between planes taxiing to the tarmac from one of the two parallel runways planned. Runway lengths are as follows: 5km, about 3.2km, and 2.5km. So, for Int'l airports, how many runways do we need to have with ILS guidance? Also, do they need ILS in both directions? One final question: which landing lights should I use?

 

Aircraft generally only use one parallel set of runways at a time as wind conditions favor  (Land into the wind as much as possible).  So you don't actually have much of a collision problem with taxiing planes crossing runways that aren't the 'Active'.  And I've been sticking with Intl. Airports having a max runway length of 3200 meters (Scale 1.3).  You can get a 300 ton 747-esque vehicle off the ground in that distance just fine.  (Remember, Kerbal's scaled down, and so are the parts.)

 

As for the ILS.  After messing with the KK ILS setup, I discovered that multiple landing guidance systems in the same area don't like to play nice, so I decided to stick with what I call 'The Most likely'.  In that manner, I choose my ILS based on which approach will have the largest runway, least obstructions, and likely be the most favorable wind conditions.

 

For coastal airports, that usually means the approach coming in off the water has been the one I've been picking.  However, that may also end up being the opposite direction, as a good sea breeze would mean the aircraft should take off going out to sea, and land heading out to sea.

 

As for lights, ASLF-2.  Match the scale of the runway, or they'll look awkward.  And the Precision Approach path indicator I scaled to size 3 so it can be seen further out (they pixelate and can't be seen when too small).

For the Localizer Antenna bar, you'll be happy to know that the antennae on that look like triangles should point AWAY from the runway.  The ILS slope systems face the same way, but also have an L and R letter hiding on their frame.  If you're looking at the runway on approach, these should be pointing out at you and those positions are relative to that camera position looking in  If you don't want to worry about figuring them out, just place them and I'll do cleanup when you send me what you've done.

[Vonnmillard]

3 hours ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

Here's a chart-shaped progress report on airports as a whole.

 

 

The red tag is the airport Bottle Rocketeer is working on.  Don't know his progress.  But now I'm down to just poking out where my region E international airport is going to be.  Then I move on to smaller regionals.

 

 

Hi there. What do you think about an Airport in KSP that's based of Singapore Changi Airport? ( https://www.google.com.sg/maps/place/Changi+Airport+Singapore/@1.3504975,103.9770508,7298m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x31da17d693d0cde3:0xd6d6dd5e414e4503!8m2!3d1.3644202!4d103.9915308 ) Not asking you to do it now, but Wondering what if there's such an Airport for KSP

[Vonnmillard]

7 hours ago, Eskandare said:

Sure, I haven't added one yet because it is difficult to place statics near the poles.

Also, when you said "it is difficult to place statics near the poles", do you mean it's impossible to do so because the closer you get to the middle, it'll mess the position of the static that you're placing?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

5 hours ago, Vonnmillard said:

Also, when you said "it is difficult to place statics near the poles", do you mean it's impossible to do so because the closer you get to the middle, it'll mess the position of the static that you're placing?

 

To make it simple, Unity's engine places things in a cubic grid in the scene.  Kerbin, is a sphere, and we use the global coordinate system when dealing with it.  Kerbal Konstructs has some math magics that allows us to place things by latitude and longitude, and converts it into the proper cubic coordinates.  (I remember when KK first came out.  The static placement system didn't have a converter yet, so you had to run the math for coordinates, and then use a relative position system that you centered on a core static to place things in a base.  I decided never to touch it.)  However, the conversion system is subject to positional error the more it has to utilize decimal chains. 

 

Computers can't take decimal chains to infinity because it has to store them in a memory address that is only so large.  So there comes a point where the decimal MUST be cut short.   If the next number after the cut point would be anything other than zero, you lose that precision equal to the size of that value.  The leftover dividing error is a floating point error (There's a lot more to this, but I'm trimming it down to understand the core problem).

Now, why is this important?

Keep in mind something about latitude and longitude.  If you look at a sphere, latitude lines are evenly spaced, but longitude lines converge on the poles. 

As the longitude lines converge, the distance between them decreases. 

Thus, in example:  Where 10 degrees between longitude lines might be 10 km at the equator, at 30 deg. Latitude that might be 6 km, and at 60 deg. latitude, that might be 3 km.  To keep the precision when moving an object back and forth along a longitudinal axis, you have to be able to use smaller and smaller increments to represent the coordinate change.  Thus, the formula doing the conversion from the lat/lon coordinates has to account for the fact that high latitude positions have less distance between longitude values.  Therefor, what would be only a meter of longitudinal precision at the equator, must come down to a fraction of a meter at or near the poles, and may in fact 'approach zero'  (It cannot actually become zero in the computer, you run into maybe messing with Divide By Zero...  Which is just infinity, and that's a useless value here).  That means it needs more decimal places to be happy.  BUT!  Because we have to 'truncate' the decimal at some point, you will hit a brick wall trying to enforce 0.000000000001 meter precision when the memory address for the number can only hold half that many decimal places.

 

This manifests as such:  On the equator, when I hit the 'move this thing west by 1 meter per click' button, it'll move west 1 meter.  If I'm working at say, 62 degrees latitude, hitting the 'move this thing west by 1 meter per click' button will move it west by 0.734007241 meters, and south 0.52348796 meters.  This results in a lot of very slow, annoying stair-stepping as you move and align the statics.

So what this means for a polar base, is that placing statics is a very slow and time consuming process.  I haven't seen how bad the mis-jumps are myself, but what I've seen at a 60 degree latitude makes me think that you might as well be playing darts when you're near 90 latitude.  And north, south, it doesn't matter.

 

That may actually even be the reason why both polar bases in Kerbinside 'Classic' were never AT the poles.  The closer you get, the more ugly the error becomes until it really is like throwing darts.

 

 

 

[Eskandare]

13 hours ago, Vonnmillard said:

Also, when you said "it is difficult to place statics near the poles", do you mean it's impossible to do so because the closer you get to the middle, it'll mess the position of the static that you're placing?

Yes, and it's not impossible just very difficult.

[XOC2008]

Need that Wasp and Kuznetsov... but Kerbinside is looking so much nicer.

[Eskandare]

10 hours ago, XOC2008 said:

Need that Wasp and Kuznetsov... but Kerbinside is looking so much nicer.

Thanks, I have so much more to add to Kerbin Side Remastered. My desk is covered with notes and more models in my KSR folder.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

2 hours ago, Eskandare said:

Thanks, I have so much more to add to Kerbin Side Remastered. My desk is covered with notes and more models in my KSR folder.

 

Hey, can you PM me what you're planning for models/statics?

 

 

EDIT: Here's the latest upload for KSRAirports:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/29t63kh9nvzec24/KSRAirports.rar/file

 

I should also mention, I'm not playing with version numbers right now.  So as I make and put one up on mediafire, the old version gets deleted, and old links die.

Edited June 4, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Vonnmillard]

On 5/10/2018 at 12:36 PM, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

You don't want spawns at all the gates.  I'm looking at making dozens of airports, and each spawn creates both an entry on the KK list, and an icon on the tracking-station map.  Having multiple spawns at each airport would result in a huge mess of a list.  As for doing all the extra cosmetic stuff...  I'm not going to get THAT crazy invested into it.  KK's placement system is just too inefficient and takes too long.  It took 12 hours to put together what amounts to snapping a bunch of half-hexes together and fiddle in some extra parts.  The other thing is I don't want to grab up KSC++ models and parts.  That'll force a dependency.

 

As for realistic things like criss-crossing runways...   Runways are placed based on dominating surface wind patterns.  So I'll be trying to figure out what is most common based on what the map of a spot looks like.  Would be neat if KWS was functional for players.  Surveying actual wind patterns would be neat.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

Okay, here's my plan for airport distribution.

 

 

As I said, a LOT of airports.   In order to keep them organized on the KK launch site selector menu, I'm probably going to have to append the IKAO code with a letter-hyphen on the front denoting airport type.  My criteria I wrote up for myself are as follows:

==

 

Kerbin Airport Types:
-------------------------------
S: Spaceport   (5,000,000 Funds to open)

At least one 5000 meter runway.
One 3200 meter runway.
Located on Equator, ocean to east.
Supports large spaceplanes with extreme takeoff/landing speeds.
Operates with LF, OX, and MP.
Always has multiple VAB models and major comms relay dish.

NAMES:
- Armstrong Interstellar Starport (S-WARM)
- Krackensbane Galactic (S-EKKN)

-------------------------------
X: International Airport (1,000,000 Funds to open)

Two runways, at least one 3200 meters or longer.
Supports large aircraft such as 747s.
Only LF available.
Always has advanced lighting for all approaches, and ILS guidance for optimal approach.
Always has spaceplane hangar with tower.
Short range comms antenna.

NAMES:
- Badlands International (X-GBDL)
- Snakebyte Bay (X-WSBT)

 

-------------------------------
R: Regional Airport  (500,000 Funds to open)
One or two runways, at least one being standard 2500 or 2700 meter.
Supports medium aircraft such as turboprops and medium passenger jets/business jets.
Only LF available.
Has advanced lightning on optimal approach with ILS, other approaches get simplified lighting.
Has a small tower.
Short range comms antenna

-------------------------------
L: Local Airport  (100,000 Funds to open)
One runway, smaller than normal size.
Supports small and GA aircraft.
Only LF available.
Only simplified lighting, no PAPI.
No tower.
No comms Antenna

 

 

Keep in mind, the funds to open criteria is not final.  They're just rounded off numbers that took down steps from the 5 mil  starport value.

 

 

EDIT 2:

Starting on a second Intl airport.  Cottonmouth Continentlal (X-WCMC)

 

Don't even get me started on how annoying placement is here.  Apparently the slight roll and pitch where I landed the AW-609 to place down a spawn point also translated into spawning the instances.  I had to slight-roll things to get the taxiways not to behave funky.

Speaking of 747s, can you let us try your 747?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

7 hours ago, Vonnmillard said:

Speaking of 747s, can you let us try your 747?

 

I'm afraid that's undoable.  I have too many mods (120+), several of them with custom-input tweaks made to them, and several of them old as dirt.  To 'give you' my 747 to try would pretty much require me to upload my entire gamedata folder just so I don't miss anything I may have messed with that went into the Sky Queen.  I'm not uploading a 3.6 gig folder.

[Vonnmillard]

10 hours ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

 

I'm afraid that's undoable.  I have too many mods (120+), several of them with custom-input tweaks made to them, and several of them old as dirt.  To 'give you' my 747 to try would pretty much require me to upload my entire gamedata folder just so I don't miss anything I may have messed with that went into the Sky Queen.  I'm not uploading a 3.6 gig folder.

Oh, ok, I see.......

I understand

[Bottle Rocketeer 500]

@AdmiralTigerclaw For X-KJMK, can I please bypass the requirement to have an SPH static present, as the SPH is a little too short for a terminal in my airport, and I also want to use the ATC static.

Edit: Coordinates for airport:

18N

28W

Edited June 5, 2018 by Bottle Rocketeer 500

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

2 hours ago, Bottle Rocketeer 500 said:

@AdmiralTigerclaw For X-KJMK, can I please bypass the requirement to have an SPH static present, as the SPH is a little too short for a terminal in my airport, and I also want to use the ATC static.

Edit: Coordinates for airport:

18N

28W

 

Snap a picture, I'm not understanding what's going on.

[Vonnmillard]

On 6/3/2018 at 4:06 AM, Eskandare said:

Sure, I haven't added one yet because it is difficult to place statics near the poles.

Also, about adding Bases at the Poles, not AT, because of the stated reasons that makes it Difficult, how long will it likely take to make such bases? So in the meantime, I'll try to make my own, while I wait

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I don't know what Eskandare's planning.  But I was considering making some polar research bases.  But I would be making them without runways, because polar bases don't HAVE runways.  (Not exactly trivial to get the logistics needed to prepare and establish a huge strip of steel-reinforced concrete in what is effectively the most remote place in the world on a sheet of ice).

 

I was thinking of just plopping a terrain decal down, and then  a few buildings, and some lights.  Make it really look like a remote ice base that you need a ruggedized aircraft to get access to, like a C-130.  But again, I want to know what @Eskandare has planned for additional assets before committing to poking those.  I'm assuming he has some good stuff, but I want to be certain...  If he'd just answer me.  (Doesn't even need to be pictures or anything, just a quick list.)

 

Also, what do you guys think about a test base?  This is an airport like the others, but I'm thinking of putting it on one of the islands south of the desert.  Unlike my airports, it'll have runway starts for getting right to takeoff tests, like KSC.  However, the start point for the runways will overlap and I'll have three of them in a star pattern.  No lights, no ILS, no extra Taxiways. 

 

 

@Vonnmillard

Hey, I can't give you craft files that would do you any good with all my mods, but do you want a set of pictures of some of my vehicles so you can figure out how to make them with what you have?  I can make an album of the 747 to show you some of the more critical details.  Especially the slotted flaps.  I made actual WORKING slotted flaps with infernal robotics, B9 Procedural Wings, and of course, FAR for the physics.

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Eskandare]

 

On 6/5/2018 at 10:04 AM, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

I don't know what Eskandare's planning.  But I was considering making some polar research bases.  But I would be making them without runways, because polar bases don't HAVE runways.  (Not exactly trivial to get the logistics needed to prepare and establish a huge strip of steel-reinforced concrete in what is effectively the most remote place in the world on a sheet of ice).

 

I was thinking of just plopping a terrain decal down, and then  a few buildings, and some lights.  Make it really look like a remote ice base that you need a ruggedized aircraft to get access to, like a C-130.  But again, I want to know what @Eskandare has planned for additional assets before committing to poking those.  I'm assuming he has some good stuff, but I want to be certain...  If he'd just answer me.  (Doesn't even need to be pictures or anything, just a quick list.)

 

Also, what do you guys think about a test base?  This is an airport like the others, but I'm thinking of putting it on one of the islands south of the desert.  Unlike my airports, it'll have runway starts for getting right to takeoff tests, like KSC.  However, the start point for the runways will overlap and I'll have three of them in a star pattern.  No lights, no ILS, no extra Taxiways. 

I have a polar base planned basically a simple set of buildings and yes a terrain decal with some markers pointing out where the runway begins and ends, I have a new TD that would form the runway. Also I have a 4400x72m runway, it's based off the OXCART runway at Groom Lake airbase. The 4400 runway has an arc-minute curve due to Kerbin's curvature. Among other things more taxiway parts, another animated hanger and aircraft parking.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Eskandare

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

10 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

 

I have a polar base planned basically a simple set of buildings and yes a terrain decal with some markers pointing out where the runway begins and ends, I have a new TD that would form the runway. Also I have a 4400x72m runway, it's based off the OXCART runway at Groom Lake airbase. The 4400 runway has an arc-minute curve due to Kerbin's curvature.

What other buildings assets do you have on hand?  I would love to have a few more options to make some tweaks to the current airport set (Using the same statics over and over gets monotonous).

 

Honestly, I've love to recycle the helipads from the old Kerbinside assets.  Especially the platform.  But I don't know what would be safe to drag in, and if it would be allowed.

I also kind of want to invest into the integration of Supply and Demand.  Having certain mid-field bases that produce a raw good unit that needs to be moved around seems fun.  I need to poke that thread...

Edited June 6, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Bottle Rocketeer 500]

@Eskandare Could you please also add in some terminal parts and maybe some jetways?

[Eskandare]

6 hours ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

Honestly, I've love to recycle the helipads from the old Kerbinside assets.  Especially the platform.  But I don't know what would be safe to drag in, and if it would be allowed.

I also kind of want to invest into the integration of Supply and Demand.  Having certain mid-field bases that produce a raw good unit that needs to be moved around seems fun.  I need to poke that thread...

I cannot use anything from Kerbin Side Classic because it is under an ARR license, but it would be very easy for me to make a new quality helicopter landing pad.

 

6 hours ago, Bottle Rocketeer 500 said:

@Eskandare Could you please also add in some terminal parts and maybe some jetways?

An air terminal is on my list. Jet ways are not; and only because everyone makes planes differently.

[Bottle Rocketeer 500]

@AdmiralTigerclaw For the triangular filler pieces, what color do you use for concrete gray?