Hypothetical Earth modification - shallow oceans

[KerikBalm]

Don't forget the massive heat sink and gas sink that is the ocean. The climate would change much more rapidly from dumping CO2 into the atmosphere if the oceans were much much shallower

[Cassel]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

@Cassel

Ooooh please dont take videos that look like that too seriously...I can tell with a high degree of confidence just from the video's title, that it is going to be a horrible mishmash of tiny nuggests of truth mixed with gallons and gallons of made up hogwash. Please take some advice from someone who has been on the internet since the 90's and update your skepticism detector with the various things that describe this video and video's like it.

(Oh my god....Ive been on the internet since the 90's)

 

 

His arguments are not bad. I've seen documentary about cities in that region and there were smaller cities built in same way. Which is about right that in large empires cities design could be similar. North Sahara also had few lakes and rivers at times when Atlantis could exist and other confirmed cities in that region were dependant on nearby rivers. Once rivers dry out cities were abandoned.

As for other videos, I didn't seen them yet.

[Green Baron]

I only watched the first 2 minutes.

I need facts and answers:

What has an intrusive and weathered out magmatic dome to do with a "city" ?

What and where exactly are the "confirmed cities" and how are they confirmed ? What cultural group and which time do they belong to ?

 

It is correct that the Sahara is in a geographical context an ephemeral thing, it spreads an retreats with climate and weather patterns, and it was inhabited in the neolithic. There is pottery and stone carvings. No cities i knew of, it is a bit for cities in that area and time frame, though not entirely impossible. Iirc after around 4.000bc (3.500 acc. to wikipedia, curse it) the desert spreads and over it is with a funny life there. Correct me :-)

Edited September 26, 2018 by Green Baron

[p1t1o]

22 minutes ago, Cassel said:

His arguments are not bad. I've seen documentary about cities in that region and there were smaller cities built in same way. Which is about right that in large empires cities design could be similar. North Sahara also had few lakes and rivers at times when Atlantis could exist and other confirmed cities in that region were dependant on nearby rivers. Once rivers dry out cities were abandoned.

As for other videos, I didn't seen them yet.

Its not exactly groundbreaking, or implausible, to suggest that there might be the remains of ruined settlements in the desert.

Extrapolating that they are the remains of "cities" from a heretofore unknown civilisation, or the "lost city of atlantis" or that there is some kind of cover up is what makes it garbage.

The dangerous part is that some bits might have a basis in verifiable fact and this convinces a lot of people that everything he says must be true.

You cannot trust data from these sources.

**edit**

But to be fair, your first instincts appear to have been to verify with science, which is ideal.

2 hours ago, Cassel said:

...I would like to check if this guy is right...

 

Anyhoo, we're a bit off-topic.

Edited September 26, 2018 by p1t1o

[Cassel]

6 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Its not exactly groundbreaking, or implausible, to suggest that there might be the remains of ruined settlements in the desert.

Extrapolating that its the "lost city of atlantis" or that there is some kind of cover up is what makes it garbage.

The dangerous part is that some bits might have a basis in verifiable fact and this convinces a lot of people that everything he says must be true.

You cannot trust data from these sources.

Yes, but if those ruined cities had same design it tell us that they were probably part of same empire?
I am sure that there are many large cities that were lost and we have idea about them. Why would Atlantis be some kind of garbage? Isn't it mentioned in Plato's work? We should believe in what he said or not?

People in ancient times could think and describe this city as it was located on island, while could be surrounded by few rivers and artificial canals. Every idea is worth checking.

[p1t1o]

17 minutes ago, Cassel said:

Yes, but if those ruined cities had same design it tell us that they were probably part of same empire?

You sure about that? Its one possibility, but how do you know there is not another explanation? Are you *sure* they are the same and not just share influences?

Heres an example just off the top of my head - buildings in St. Petersburg have a lot of Italian design features because Peter the Great really liked Italy - But not the same empire, no shared history etc.

This is why we have science, and do not rely on intuition to draw conclusions.

 

17 minutes ago, Cassel said:

I am sure that there are many large cities that were lost and we have idea about them. Why would Atlantis be some kind of garbage? Isn't it mentioned in Plato's work? We should believe in what he said or not?

Plato was a smart guy, for sure, but if we cannot find significant supporting evidence in the millenia since he wrote about it, should we assume that he's still right and we just cant find it?

Or might there be another conclusion? Such as, he was talking about a known empire, but he just didnt recognise it. Or the exact meaning of his teachings has been distorted through time. Or he was wrong simply by virtue

If he wrote about little green men from under the ground, should we start digging?

 

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not "Plato said it and this other guy has great intuition about these things"

Edited September 26, 2018 by p1t1o

[Green Baron]

Plato's Atlantis is a fiction, an analogy, an author's stylistic device. It never existed.

I am completely aware that this will just be ignored *sigh*

[Cassel]

7 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

You sure about that? Its one possibility, but heres a thing - buildings in St. Petersburg have a lot of Italian design features because Peter the Great really liked Italy - But not the same empire.

True, what is interesting that pyramids are almost same design all over the World, yet saying that those civilisations knew about each other back then is "garbage" not science ;-)
 

7 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Plato was a smart guy, for sure, but if we cannot find significant supporting evidence in the millenia since he wrote about it, should we assume that he's still right and we just cant find it?

Or might there be another conclusion? Such as, he was talking about a known empire, but he just didnt recognise it. Or the exact meaning of his teachings has been distorted through time.

If he wrote about little green men from under the ground, should we start digging?

Maybe we are looking in wrong places? We didn't looked at Sahara so far, as far as I am aware of.
Of course we should start digging any story needs to be checked.

7 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I know, I can't find right now that documentary about North Sahara cities, but I've found this. In 17:00 is interesting map made from data based on NASA scans.
 

 

[kerbiloid]

It's so circular...

Maybe that's a frozen round lake of magma, a mark of the ET starship launch.

[p1t1o]

10 minutes ago, Cassel said:

Maybe we are looking in wrong places? We didn't looked at Sahara so far, as far as I am aware of.

Knowing the limits of your awareness is an extremely valuable skill. We absolutely have looked in the Sahara. People love this stuff, they look everywhere, literally. 

Its not that there might not still be things to find, its the conclusions you draw.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

9 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

We absolutely have looked in the Sahara. People love this stuff, they look everywhere, literally. 

They still haven't interrogated the witnesses.

 

[Cassel]

16 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Knowing the limits of your awareness is an extremely valuable skill. We absolutely have looked in the Sahara. People love this stuff, they look everywhere, literally. 

Its not that there might not still be things to find, its the conclusions you draw.

You are wrong on this one. Many countries doesn't allow to dig on their land.

[p1t1o]

31 minutes ago, Cassel said:

You are wrong on this one. Many countries doesn't allow to dig on their land.

Perhaps, but Sahara is a big place, cant say "we havnt looked in the Sahara".

Also, many countries have not always existed and permissions change. Remember the British Empire?

Frankly, if nobody has looked there, and nobody is allowed to, where are all the ideas of lost civilisations coming from? Cant base it all on satellite data from NASA.

Cant have it both ways, either we havnt looked there so we have no idea, or we have looked there and found no evidence of lost civilisations.

Edited September 26, 2018 by p1t1o

[kerbiloid]

Afaik, just 1/10 of the known Çatalhöyük is currently opened, and this had required on-ground seismic location.

What can we say about 99% of the other part of the Earth, which has never been explored.

P.S.
Unlikely there could be a native industrial civilization on the Earth, as the known mineral deposits would be already depleted, while hills of mineralized rust would cover any place good for a large city.

Edited September 26, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Cassel]

36 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

 

Cant have it both ways, either we havnt looked there so we have no idea, or we have looked there and found no evidence of lost civilisations.

Or we have only pictures from satellites and lots of questions? There was any archeological site in there?
There are pyramids in China, but we know about them very little, because they didn't allow anyone to study them.

There is general rule for ancient civilisations, if there is large river near by, there were cities. If there was river in the past there must be cities too.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Cassel

[Green Baron]

 

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

Or we have only pictures from satellites and lots of questions? There was any archeological site in there?

No serious archaeologist wastes his time on a search for Atlantis. As i have pointed out, it does not exist. It is a rhetorical element in Plato's work, nothing more.

Quote

There are pyramids in China, but we know about them very little, because they didn't allow anyone to study them.

Imo this is crossing the border to conspiracy now. You'll find burial mounds everywhere in the world.

And this is just not true. In the last 1-2 decades, Chinese have been extremely and increasingly eager in publishing their work in geoscience, archaeology and paleontology. They have actually contributed invaluable work to these subjects, and are in some cases rather on the conservative side, compared to for example ancient genetics from Germany and America.

Guys, pls., i know it fun to speculate, but shouldn't we stay on the carpet ? :-)

 

Edit:

The picture you pasted is from a publication about pre-holocene drainage systems, Tamanrasett marine sediments dating to MIS 5 (120ky before now). During the holocene, aeolian sediments make up for the most part.

If there were traces of a civilization, we'd find them. Heck, we find traces of settlements and so, but nothing comparable to e.g. later Mesopotamia or Egypt, or contemporary Levant or so called fertile crescent, the cradle of our form of neolithic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9751

The authors make absolutely no conclusion about any civilization stuff in their area and timescale of study, but it is no secret that humans settled in the Sahara in the neolithic.

Sorry for raining on your parade @Cassel, i am just advocating evidence based thinking, without the will to hurt or put someone down. Hope i am not misunderstood :-)

Edited September 26, 2018 by Green Baron

[p1t1o]

2 hours ago, Cassel said:

Or we have only pictures from satellites and lots of questions? There was any archeological site in there?
There are pyramids in China, but we know about them very little, because they didn't allow anyone to study them.

There is general rule for ancient civilisations, if there is large river near by, there were cities. If there was river in the past there must be cities too.

On the face of it, that is all fine, but our start point was a video by a guy who has looked at some maps and decided that there is an entire civilisation there, lost to human knowledge.

You've come up with a lot of good reasons why *we cant rule out a civilisation* having lived there, but that is a far, far cry from making any claims.

The idea that "nobody has studied there so maybe theres a lost civilisation" is a classic example of hearing hoofbeats and assuming zebras.

 

**edit**

...or more accurately, hearing silence and assuming zebras

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by p1t1o

[Green Baron]

Leaving here another link for human occupation in the Sahara and a view on hydrology. You can (if interested) find further links about holocene african cultures in there:

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Green Baron

[wumpus]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

No serious archaeologist wastes his time on a search for Atlantis. As i have pointed out, it does not exist. It is a rhetorical element in Plato's work, nothing more.

If I was writing a proposal for a Mycenaean dig on Thera, I might throw in a reference.  That's about as far as you'll get.

[Green Baron]

Yes, the Thera eruption (Santorin) happened at the end of the bronze age and can be linked to the Minoan culture. At least it buried part of the settlements on Santorin and somebody suggested to link that to "Atlantis". Whether it had much direct impact on Crete, the Minoan mainland ... idk. Afaik Minoan culture continued beyond the event. But it may be wise to look that up .... if it is important.

:-)

 

[Cassel]

4 hours ago, Green Baron said:

No serious archaeologist wastes his time on a search for Atlantis. As i have pointed out, it does not exist. It is a rhetorical element in Plato's work, nothing more.

That explains why nobody found it :-)

4 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Imo this is crossing the border to conspiracy now. You'll find burial mounds everywhere in the world.

Well I don't know if it is conspiracy or not, but I can't find many photos of Great White Pyramid in China. Can you find any informations about it?
Notice flat top, looks like Great pyramid in Egypt, but with different proportions?



Some places are similar to Egypt Giza site and in some sites no western scientists were allowed to enter.

But that is off-topic, so I am not going further into this in here...

 

4 hours ago, Green Baron said:

 

The picture you pasted is from a publication about pre-holocene drainage systems, Tamanrasett marine sediments dating to MIS 5 (120ky before now). During the holocene, aeolian sediments make up for the most part.

 

If there were traces of a civilization, we'd find them. Heck, we find traces of settlements and so, but nothing comparable to e.g. later Mesopotamia or Egypt, or contemporary Levant or so called fertile crescent, the cradle of our form of neolithic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9751

The authors make absolutely no conclusion about any civilization stuff in their area and timescale of study, but it is no secret that humans settled in the Sahara in the neolithic.

Sorry for raining on your parade @Cassel, i am just advocating evidence based thinking, without the will to hurt or put someone down. Hope i am not misunderstood :-)

That is why I wanted software to make some simulations of water levels in Africa :-)

I am not talking about 120k BC, I am talking 10k-5k BC. Back then Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean Sea weren't connected. Black Sea wasn't sea only lake. If you look at that video with NASA scans you will see 3 very large lakes in Africa and lots of rivers around them.

In that period (10k-5k BC) something happened and Atlantic waters started to flow to Mediterranean Sea (why? I have no idea). When Mediterranean Sea water level increased it connected with Black Sea. There are cities drowned at coast of those seas.
Almost at same time or before flood in Mediterranean, North and Central Africa went through drought and Sahara appeared. There are some civilisations found in Gobero site, some of them died because of that drought.

[Green Baron]

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

That explains why nobody found it :-)

 Can you find any informations about it?
Notice flat top, looks like Great pyramid in Egypt, but with different proportions?

Little. My Chinese is terrible. I can't even eat with with sticks :-)

Seem to be ubiquitious burial mounds, placed through the dynasties, some in pyramidal form. Nothing special i'd say. They are tourist attractions i read on Wikipedia (Wikipedia, yeuch :-)).

Btw. Pyramids exist in Central and Southern America as well ....

 

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

That is why I wanted software to make some simulations of water levels in Africa :-)

I am sure that has been done. Assume water levels during glacial maxima to be 120m lower, in OIS 5e to be 5m higher than today. I am sure one can find better estimates and ones with a higher time resolution than those over my left thumb in the field of quaternary research.

Quote

I am not talking about 120k BC, I am talking 10k-5k BC. Back then Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean Sea weren't connected. Black Sea wasn't sea only lake. If you look at that video with NASA scans you will see 3 very large lakes in Africa and lots of rivers around them.

Nope. You're mixing something up. The straight closed in the Upper Miocene (Messinian) 6-5 million years ago, not thousands. Search spell "Messinian Salinity Crisis". The Med then dried almost completely out (2.5km water column are in discussion iirc) in short time (1000y) and when the dam broke or opened again the cauldron ran full.

Quote

In that period (10k-5k BC) something happened and Atlantic waters started to flow to Mediterranean Sea (why? I have no idea).

Well, a catastrophic flooding has been a working hypothesis for quite some time, because deep incises and corresponding geologic features were found. Just recently a work was published: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-19446-3

Must have been a nice show, 1,5km waterfall and spreading from west to east, jumping over the Malta ridge into the Ionian sea. But 5my ago, not 5ky.

Quote

When Mediterranean Sea water level increased it connected with Black Sea. There are cities drowned at coast of those seas.

The Bosporus Straight, today's Istanbul, postglacial, but that's a different thing. It was hypothesized that the post glacial sea level rise of the Atlantic and Mediterranean might have caused a natural dam in the Marmara Sea to break and cause a semi catastrophic inflow of saltwater into the Black Sea. But recent work refutes that hypothesis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322707001077. If submerged sites were or are found there, i'd love to have an individual look at each of the accompanying publications (that excludes pop science, sorry). I must say, i am not a specialist in that area

Quote

Almost at same time or before flood in Mediterranean, North and Central Africa went through drought and Sahara appeared. There are some civilisations found in Gobero site, some of them died because of that drought.

Gobera is (just another) a burial place, though it has its appeal in its setting, it is not a civilisation ;-) It needs a little more for that ...

 

Though good points !

Edited September 26, 2018 by Green Baron
Corrected sea level variations after a short lookup

[James Kerman]

What kind of tidal effects could we expect to see on this hypothetical Earth?

[magnemoe]

9 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Plato's Atlantis is a fiction, an analogy, an author's stylistic device. It never existed.

I am completely aware that this will just be ignored *sigh*

No it will not. 
Note that the ancient Egyptian themselves at the age of Plato probably has less ideas how the pyramids was build than we do. 
So it was build by an ancient powerful civilization  (Ancient Egyptian point of view) Yes they did it themselves but forgot.

The idea that it would be impossible for us to build something like the great pyramids also dates back a long time. The idea of ancient and more powerful civilizations was correct during much of our history. Both the Romans and medieval people was baffled by the pyramids, this even apply to Napoleon and his people, 100 years later not so much. 
The great pyramid of Khufu weight around 6M ton, the Hover dam is more massive and way more complex, lots of later dams and other projects is way larger. 

Yes pyramid construction is an mystery, not because its hard, but because we don't know how they did it. 
However for people in medieval and Renascence times lots of the ancient constructions would be imposing in their size. 

[magnemoe]

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Afaik, just 1/10 of the known Çatalhöyük is currently opened, and this had required on-ground seismic location.

What can we say about 99% of the other part of the Earth, which has never been explored.

P.S.
Unlikely there could be a native industrial civilization on the Earth, as the known mineral deposits would be already depleted, while hills of mineralized rust would cover any place good for a large city.

Note it was probably towns pre dating Çatalhöyük by some thousand years. Fishing makes it easy to make an permanent settlement without farming. 
However the ocean level raised after the ice age leaving them below water.

Not civilization however nor technology like metalworking, it was not an flood drowning people just an raising water level from year to year so people was forced to move. 
Something as useful as metalworking would not be forgotten. 
Yes you can loose skills who is not useful or require large scale organization to be useful, not something like making metals.