Better launch escape system(s)

[Xd the great]

The launch escape system could be built by 2 parts instead of 1, allowing us for bigger control over horizontal turn and other escape profiles.

[Aeroboi]

Can you better explain what you are trying to suggest?

53 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

allowing us for bigger control over horizontal turn and other escape profiles.

Concerning that specifically ^

AFAIK the launch escape system is a real world replica and the idea behind is that it fires as the capsule decouples to get the astronauts away from a dangerous situation. There's no specific direction to go besides getting away from the spacecraft ASAP. Whether if fires you horizontal depends on where you are in the trajectory of your rocket launch. If the launch escape system fails at launch it launches you vertical. And if you desperately want to create a horizontal motion you can use the capsules reaction wheels to steer you away after it fires.

53 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

The launch escape system could be built by 2 parts instead of 1

I wouldn't want anything in the game that adds parts without a very clear reason since added parts will put extra load on physics calculations. It's best to have 1 system or utility in a single part.

I personally never use the launch escape system. That is not to say others don't but I do think it is a part less used and not the most popular around so I'm not sure how many people would want to add to it. Unless there's something wrong with it or something to be gained. But I hope to understand in what way if you care to explain your idea a bit more thorough.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Aeroboi

[Gargamel]

2 hours ago, Xd the great said:

allowing us for bigger control over horizontal turn and other escape profiles.

LESs are designed to be Zero/Zero systems.   They are designed for the wort case scenario, which is sitting on the pad.   Any other scenario becomes "It's not optimal, but it works" with the design.   At some early point in a launch, the LES becomes less effective than an upper stage engine firing off, or even an ATO, at which point the LES is jettisoned.   LES are not designed to be adjustable.   There are mods out there that have tweaked the LES to be less pinwheely, though. 

1 hour ago, Aeroboi said:

I personally never use the launch escape system.

All manned vessels have some version of a LES in my game.  I do use a random failure mod though, so that is why.   Some of my 40 man space buses do require some tricky designs to get a usable LSS though.  The stock one doesn't even budge a 40 ton capsule. 

[Aeroboi]

7 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

...I do use a random failure mod though, so that is why.   Some of my 40 man space buses do require some tricky designs to get a usable LSS though.  The stock one doesn't even budge a 40 ton capsule. 

I remember me using that mod which is when I first started using the LES at all. So far I'm more annoyed by part failures but that is me. I can conclude also that for some crew compartment(s) a stronger version would be needed. Perhaps a 1.875 or 2.5m version is a sound request. I can imagine you could create 1.25m attachments to add more but that just doesn't look right.

[MaverickSawyer]

Re: Better LES... I always found the stock one to be somewhat... underwhelming. It would never kick it high enough or far enough sideways to allow my parachutes to open with RealChute.

 

So... I kinda edited the .cfg to give 50% more thrust and 25% more fuel, and I've been a happy man ever since.

Edited September 28, 2018 by MaverickSawyer

[Tyko]

5 hours ago, Gargamel said:

LESs are designed to be Zero/Zero systems.   They are designed for the wort case scenario, which is sitting on the pad.   Any other scenario becomes "It's not optimal, but it works" with the design.   At some early point in a launch, the LES becomes less effective than an upper stage engine firing off, or even an ATO, at which point the LES is jettisoned.   LES are not designed to be adjustable.   There are mods out there that have tweaked the LES to be less pinwheely, though.

Which mods? I've been looking for a mod that would remove or limit the thrust the spins the capsule around. my craft tend to spin like crazy when the LES fires

[linuxgurugamer]

Pebkac is one

[Gargamel]

1 hour ago, Tyko said:

Which mods? I've been looking for a mod that would remove or limit the thrust the spins the capsule around. my craft tend to spin like crazy when the LES fires

I dunno, don't use them, I can deal with the pinwheel of near death, as I use stock chutes and atmo.   I think there a few mods, in addition to what LGG mentioned. 

[Xd the great]

I think the LES is turning too much and not going high enough.

[Gargamel]

1 hour ago, Xd the great said:

I think the LES is turning too much and not going high enough.

 

3 hours ago, Tyko said:

Which mods? I've been looking for a mod that would remove or limit the thrust the spins the capsule around. my craft tend to spin like crazy when the LES fires

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Pebkac is one

1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

I think there a few mods, in addition to what LGG mentioned. 

 

 

 

[Xd the great]

Yes, so thats why I suggest squad make the thrust more upward and less horizontal, for every one who does not use mods.

On a semi related topic, does anyone know the thrust angle of the LES?

[sumghai]

I examined the stock LES in Blender, using taniwha's .mu import/export add-on:

The stock LES has five thrustTransforms of equal thrust magnitude. Four of these correspond to the Abort Motor nozzles at the bottom of the tower, while the fifth (the green Y-axis arrow) is what's causing the LES to flip dramatically mid-flight.

I don't think the current stock PartModules would allow each individual thrustTransform to have different thrust.

[Xd the great]

5 hours ago, sumghai said:

I examined the stock LES in Blender, using taniwha's .mu import/export add-on:

The stock LES has five thrustTransforms of equal thrust magnitude. Four of these correspond to the Abort Motor nozzles at the bottom of the tower, while the fifth (the green Y-axis arrow) is what's causing the LES to flip dramatically mid-flight.

I don't think the current stock PartModules would allow each individual thrustTransform to have different thrust.

Yes, therefore I am asking if it is possible for devs to reduce thrust for the sideward thrust motor.

Or else imma have to write a patch with module gimbal.

[sumghai]

3 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

Yes, therefore I am asking if it is possible for devs to reduce thrust for the sideward thrust motor.

As per my initial post, you cannot reduce the sideward motor thrust without also reducing the main Abort Motor thrust, because they all share the same thrustTransform GameObject name.

And I do not believe gimbaling engines would be appropriate here.

[Xd the great]

2 minutes ago, sumghai said:

As per my initial post, you cannot reduce the sideward motor thrust without also reducing the main Abort Motor thrust, because they all share the same thrustTransform GameObject name.

And I do not believe gimbaling engines would be appropriate here.

Alright I see your point.

Thanks for the explanation.

What if the devs change the direction of the fifth thrust?

[Tyko]

Or, if they're making changes anyway, they could assign the 5th thruster to its own thrustTransform so the lateral thrust could be tweaked via configs

[James M]

Is it possible to add a low thrust sepatron on the side to counteract the spin and add thrust?

[qzgy]

2 hours ago, James M said:

Is it possible to add a low thrust sepatron on the side to counteract the spin and add thrust?

If thats what you want yeah that would work.

[MaverickSawyer]

7 hours ago, James M said:

Is it possible to add a low thrust sepatron on the side to counteract the spin and add thrust?

 

4 hours ago, qzgy said:

If thats what you want yeah that would work.

I seem to recall having done so many years ago, but it was quite finicky and required a great deal of care and testing.

[RoboRay]

Yeah, this is one of the things in KSP where Squad got the concept right, but the implementation is not so good.

The real Apollo LES had a side-firing nozzle to impart some rotation, but it was a weak, short pulse... just enough to slightly turn the craft, not keeping firing at high power and tumble the capsule end over end.

Using Ven's Stock Revamp LES, which dispenses with the side-firing nozzle altogether, I've found that this is completely unnecessary in KSP.  There will usually be enough wobble to provide the turn for you, carrying you off-axis from the prograde vector.  But you could always stick one of Ven's Snubatron tiny separator SRBs on the side of the LES if you want that side-firing thrust.

Edited October 1, 2018 by RoboRay

[sumghai]

9 hours ago, RoboRay said:

Using Ven's Stock Revamp LES, which dispenses with the side-firing nozzle altogether, I've found that this is completely unnecessary in KSP.  There will usually be enough wobble to provide the turn for you, carrying you off-axis from the prograde vector.  But you could always stick one of Ven's Snubatron tiny separator SRBs on the side of the LES if you want that side-firing thrust.

Indeed - I've also found that reaction wheel torque from the command pod itself is almost sufficient for turning the craft during abort.

For the LAS from my own SDHI SMS mod, I actually implemented solid fuel powered RCS thrusters for steering. This is based on the attitude control motors for the real-life Orion LAS, which is essentially a constantly-burning slug of solid fuel feeding eight nozzles independently controlled by proportional valves.

What would be nice is for SQUAD to implement some control logic via a new PartModule similar to the PEBKAC mod, that automatically orients the pod retrograde after the abort motors burn out, possibly even automatically releasing the pod afterwards.

[Xd the great]

On 10/2/2018 at 5:41 AM, sumghai said:

Indeed - I've also found that reaction wheel torque from the command pod itself is almost sufficient for turning the craft during abort.

For the LAS from my own SDHI SMS mod, I actually implemented solid fuel powered RCS thrusters for steering. This is based on the attitude control motors for the real-life Orion LAS, which is essentially a constantly-burning slug of solid fuel feeding eight nozzles independently controlled by proportional valves.

What would be nice is for SQUAD to implement some control logic via a new PartModule similar to the PEBKAC mod, that automatically orients the pod retrograde after the abort motors burn out, possibly even automatically releasing the pod afterwards.

Yeah, this will make life easier for those kerbals aborting.