Forced Arbitration Agreement - What is it? Why? Opt-Out Letter Template

[Phreakish]

13 hours ago, Chakat Firepaw said:

While that is the reason people with an existing dispute would go to arbitration, that generally isn't why companies put, (often legally void), arbitration clauses in contracts. 

Agreed. Arbitration and forced arbitration can be quite different depending on the context. As another noted, arbitration without a lawyer is also unwise, but is more common because many lack an understanding of how the legal systems works (and justifiably so, until you've had experience with it there's no good way to know or learn).

2 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

so there is a big point being missed here, eula's in the current incarnation are actually not exactly legally binding...

Also true based on my limited understanding - however, that won't change how the potential defendant would treat the case, and an already uphill battle becomes a little bit steeper and little bit taller with these kinds of eula changes. Having to make additional arguments to even get the court to hear the case adds time, cost, energy - which is of course what these kinds of clauses are all about. Raising the friction point enough to discourage legal action. 

[Space Kadet]

2 hours ago, Phreakish said:

*snip*

Also true based on my limited understanding - however, that won't change how the potential defendant would treat the case, and an already uphill battle becomes a little bit steeper and little bit taller with these kinds of eula changes. Having to make additional arguments to even get the court to hear the case adds time, cost, energy - which is of course what these kinds of clauses are all about. Raising the friction point enough to discourage legal action. 

actually it wouldent add any noticible time, as your already gonna get bogged down in legal processes. there might be an extra step, but in the end taking take 2 to court it wont really change the cost, as for if they went after you, it would add a step for them thats easily dealt with in the US because just juping to court would cancel the arbratation. and the fun part is in the EU this is actually an illeagal contract, so they would start off with a judgement against them. 

[Mr. Peabody]

Should we nominate this for thread of the month?   >:D

[Cheif Operations Director]

7 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

so there is a big point being missed here, eula's in the current incarnation are actually not exactly legally binding. in europe and america all it takes to say you didnt agree to it would be reasnable cause to show you hadent understood that what was in it. this could be in the form of the thousands of stories, jokes, and examples of people just clicking yes to an agreement without reading it. for instance the fact it took years for anyone to report that rockstars Eula once said they owned your soul if you agreed, so this company actually knows people dont read their eula, therefor they know that you cant be held accountable.

second is the fact they have massivly changed the eula from the origional, so the argument could also be made that you read and agreed to the first one, but not to any consiquential additions. this way there is actual precident for in the US,  the case  Rodman v. Safeway, Inc. actually set the precident that without them notifying you personally you dont have to abide by their terms. and just clicking on an"agree or you aint playing our game" isint enough to show you agree with the terms.

now on a reperate case in the US  Douglas v. Talk America the court actually said that parties must consent to the new terms. so between these two cases you have presedent that says you must be personally notified and that just clicking a box saying agree isint enough to prove you have agreed to all the terms and conditions. this means that the new take 2 EULA isint legally binding, unless they can prove you have read the new one! 

now if you live in europe there is actually a law prohibiting unfair contract terms, that basically means they cant change the terms on something you have bought. Kerbal isint a servace its a product sold on hard copy, their for regardless of future updates to this game, the new EULA means nothing. so forinstance, if they put in a data harvesting thing in an update to gain information about your system. providing you bought the game before the TAKE 2 eula was active then they cant do that to you because you bought the game prior to this happening. Its akin to taking your car in for a servace and it coming out only being able to runn on a special fuel, you ddint ask for that change, so they cant change something you bought without your EXPRESS permission. again, clicking a box they is known no one reads is not binding. but on top of that there is a burden of proof in the EU that essentually overturns EULA's because they cant prove you have read it. essentualy it is that a contract must have a signature, and clicking a box is not classed as an electronic signature. hope this helps you, and remember dont read the EULA :p its not worth the paper its printed on!!! see what i did there.

Well that does not apply to us,  I'm just done I want to stop updating on steam how do I do this? 

I'm not sure  we would win that case due to the conversations here. 

[klesh]

8 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I'm just done I want to stop updating on steam how do I do this?

 

Pull the entire KSP folder out of \Steam\steamapps\common and drag it somewhere else.  Run the game from KSP_x64.exe directly.

[Cheif Operations Director]

19 minutes ago, klesh said:

 

Pull the entire KSP folder out of \Steam\steamapps\common and drag it somewhere else.  Run the game from KSP_x64.exe directly.

Thanks

Just now, Cheif Operations Director said:

Thanks

 

20 minutes ago, klesh said:

 

Pull the entire KSP folder out of \Steam\steamapps\common and drag it somewhere else.  Run the game from KSP_x64.exe directly.

Can I copy the folder so Have a steam version and a seperate version

Under the current EULA

That will not affect my saves and mods right?

[MaianTrey]

11 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Can I copy the folder so Have a steam version and a seperate version

Under the current EULA

That will not affect my saves and mods right?

Correct, there is no DRM on the game. You can copy/move the game elsewhere on your Hard Drive and run from the executable directly. All saves and mods are contained directly in the KSP folder (Mods in GameData, Saves in 'Saves') so they will all still work the same.

[Fraktal]

22 hours ago, scottadges said:

I guess I'm not sure why people are up in arms about this?

Because MUH KONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

7 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

if they put in a data harvesting thing in an update to gain information about your system

Ahem. That particular example doesn't work because the EU would tear them a new one if they collected and stored data about you without your consent, EULA or no EULA.

[Aegolius13]

Wait a minute, you have to MAIL a PAPER copy to them in order to opt out?  Of a change they made to an electronic document posted on a website, with notice provided only by a forum post?  For a product that most if not all of us purchased electronically?

Uhhh, I don't think so.  That sounds a lot like the shenanigans that product manufacturers play(ed) to keep people from successfully submitting rebates.  

 

 

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, Aegolius13 said:

Wait a minute, you have to MAIL a PAPER copy to them in order to opt out?  Of a change they made to an electronic document posted on a website, with notice provided only by a forum post?  For a product that most if not all of us purchased electronically?

Uhhh, I don't think so.  That sounds a lot like the shenanigans that product manufacturers play(ed) to keep people from successfully submitting rebates.  

 

 

Yes that the problem. Opt-Out should be a slider on the launcher

If you want forced arbitration that is fine but I need to content to that. Perhaps add a launcher for KSP similar to War Thunder or Total War and then a legal tab with sliders like data collection it would be good PR as well! Companies do not value PR anymore its sad. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

Oh great apparently sony may be in talks to but Take Two, when will this ever end!

[Aegolius13]

1 minute ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Oh great apparently sony may be in talks to but Take Two, when will this ever end!

You must opt out by recording your verbal objection on a Walkman and mailing said Walkman to Sony headquarters in Japan.

[Cheif Operations Director]

[snip]

12 hours ago, Aegolius13 said:

You must opt out by recording your verbal objection on a Walkman and mailing said Walkman to Sony headquarters in Japan. 

I would not be surprised, most likely they want your SSN, Credit Card Number, PIN Number, Phone password, e-mail password, Phone number, tax returns, income to debt ratio, monetary assets, number lawyers retained, how many times you buy food in a month etc. to prove its you as well. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Deddly

[Cheif Operations Director]

This new EULA does not affect the forum right?

[klgraham1013]

1 hour ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

This new EULA does not affect the forum right?

The last update did.  You accepted it just by using the forum.

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, klgraham1013 said:

The last update did.  You accepted it just by using the forum. 



How would forced arbitration affect a forum?

[klgraham1013]

1 hour ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

How would forced arbitration affect a forum?

EULA's are all boilerplate now.  They don't care if parts of it don't actually relate to the product.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, klgraham1013 said:

EULA's are all boilerplate now.  They don't care if parts of it don't actually relate to the product.

Yes they are, again as I was saying the EULAs keep taking more and more of our private info and our rights to counter their taking of that info. How much longer until they want our SSN to play KSP and talk on a forum. I'm exaggerating a bit but they need a EULA more multiplayer and one for Single player games. For KSP and especially the forums the EULA is way to nosy. 

[Deddly]

There was a bit of a confrontational side discussion going on here that was getting a bit political and had to be removed. Political discussion is not only off topic for this thread, but is also banned from this forum for this exact reason - it always gets confrontational.

 

If anyone would like to contest this decision, please contact TakeTwo, who will arrange arbitration (just kidding, but that makes it back on topic)

[Fraktal]

No complaints from me.

[klesh]

23 minutes ago, Deddly said:

If anyone would like to contest this decision, please contact TakeTwo, who will arrange arbitration (just kidding, but that makes it back on topic)

 

 

LOL, well played sir.

[Raptor9]

I imagine that anyone that feels compelled to lose their minds over the updated EULA (again), have never read the EULA's/Terms and Conditions of their Windows operating system, their smart phone, or any of their social media accounts.  If they did, and reacted equally as perturbed, they would probably be living off the grid somewhere using nothing more than an abacus.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has a right to their opinion, but I'm just shaking my head over all this unnecessary alarm-ism.

[Cheif Operations Director]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

I imagine that anyone that feels compelled to lose their minds over the updated EULA (again), have never read the EULA's/Terms and Conditions of their Windows operating system, their smart phone, or any of their social media accounts.  If they did, and reacted equally as perturbed, they would probably be living off the grid somewhere using nothing more than an abacus.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has a right to their opinion, but I'm just shaking my head over all this unnecessary alarm-ism.

I understand but the more people who we may have a problem with the worse it is.

[Cheif Operations Director]

I can decide if im going to send in a letter our outright click decline on the EULA. It would be sad to leave the community... hmm

[klgraham1013]

18 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

I imagine that anyone that feels compelled to lose their minds over the updated EULA (again), have never read the EULA's/Terms and Conditions of their Windows operating system, their smart phone, or any of their social media accounts.  If they did, and reacted equally as perturbed

People are allowed to accept something, and still disagree with it on principal.  If we couldn't do such things, humanity would have collapsed a long time ago.