My helicopter is uncontrollable. help

[jaunco325]

https://prnt.sc/pxylva

This aberration against science and technology, which probably makes their eyes bleed, is my prototype of the elicopter. I use it to test the physics of the game and see how a good helicopter is built.
He has a problem that I can't discover the cause. he turns wildly in the direction marked by the arrow he draws.
Acceleration: I already tried to put the acceleration increasing torque, RPM, and vane inclination.
control: already probe control it with the vanes and with 2 medium reaction wheels.
I also tried to handle it with both SAS and without it.
Does anyone know what the problem might be?

[Fierce Wolf]

Real life helicopters have a tail rotor to mantain control of rotation. Without it, it would spin off in a similar fashion to than thing

[AHHans]

Without the craft file it's fairly hard to diagnose a problem, but I can give some comments that may be helpful:

It looks to me as if you have contra-rotating rotors, is that correct? (If not, then change it so that you do have that.) You also need to make sure that both rotors have the same RPM and torque at the same time. (Except when you intentionally fiddle with that for control issues, but that is an advanced task.) To do that I usually bind them to the same axis action group(s) and only control then via the action group(s) and never manually.

To fly any rotor-craft in KSP it is usually helpful keep RPM and torque constant and to control the lift (or thrust in case of a propeller plane) with the blade pitch. In your case that means to set the RPM limit to the maximum, increase the torque until the rotors reach that limit, and then fly the craft only with the blade pitch.

How do you plan to steer the helicopter? Only with the reaction wheels, or also with cyclic control of blade pitch by allowing yaw, pitch, and roll control on the helicopter blades? The latter doesn't work well in KSP. It works after a fashion if the whole rotor-disc is to one side of the center-of-mass of the craft so that the blades only need to collectively increase or decrease lift to give the right control input. (I.e. there is no working cyclic control builtin in KSP. But you can make a working quadcopter without reaction wheels.)

It is best to first start out with a craft that uses the rotors only for lift and not for control, and uses only reaction wheels for control. Once you get that flying, then you can shift control of the rotation axes to the rotors one by one.

[jaunco325]

7 hours ago, Fierce Wolf said:

Real life helicopters have a tail rotor to mantain control of rotation. Without it, it would spin off in a similar fashion to than thing

my base concept:
https://www.google.com.ar/search?q=helicoptero+de+carga+militar&hl=es&sxsrf=ACYBGNSl0Nn6PcgLfTwVUmxu_M5S7nnzAg:1574006746294&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhoPKH0PHlAhWJJbkGHeoKAVgQ_AUIEigB&biw=1280&bih=881#imgrc=SLhuZ6PYvhA6FM:

 

6 hours ago, AHHans said:

Without the craft file it's fairly hard to diagnose a problem, but I can give some comments that may be helpful:

It looks to me as if you have contra-rotating rotors, is that correct? (If not, then change it so that you do have that.) You also need to make sure that both rotors have the same RPM and torque at the same time. (Except when you intentionally fiddle with that for control issues, but that is an advanced task.) To do that I usually bind them to the same axis action group(s) and only control then via the action group(s) and never manually.

To fly any rotor-craft in KSP it is usually helpful keep RPM and torque constant and to control the lift (or thrust in case of a propeller plane) with the blade pitch. In your case that means to set the RPM limit to the maximum, increase the torque until the rotors reach that limit, and then fly the craft only with the blade pitch.

How do you plan to steer the helicopter? Only with the reaction wheels, or also with cyclic control of blade pitch by allowing yaw, pitch, and roll control on the helicopter blades? The latter doesn't work well in KSP. It works after a fashion if the whole rotor-disc is to one side of the center-of-mass of the craft so that the blades only need to collectively increase or decrease lift to give the right control input. (I.e. there is no working cyclic control builtin in KSP. But you can make a working quadcopter without reaction wheels.)

It is best to first start out with a craft that uses the rotors only for lift and not for control, and uses only reaction wheels for control. Once you get that flying, then you can shift control of the rotation axes to the rotors one by one.

Yes, they are contrarotative.
I control the RPM of both engines at the same time with the acceleration control, and I already try to control them with the pitch of the blade.
the reaction wheels and the blade control probes them together and separately.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/z96q4ehjiq0bi89/helicoptero.rar/file

[AHHans]

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/z96q4ehjiq0bi89/helicoptero.rar/file

Well, after fixing some issues (clicking away the "the part FAR whatever part is missing" messages, setting the deploy angle on the blades to 4 on both rotors) it flies O.K.-ish in stock KSP. It doesn't flip out of control on its own, I can get it to climb fairly easily, it can rotate in all three axes, but rotation in pitch is rather sluggish, and getting it to hover or sink at a constant and survivable rate is tricky. The sluggish pitch control is not surprising: that is the axis in which the craft has a high moment of inertia and in which the two rotor disks provide large amounts of drag.

I guess you had problems either because the deploy angle on the aft rotor was set to -0.45 and on the front it was set to 0.0, or because FAR doesn't play well with the helicopter blades.

As I said: I prefer when the rotor RPM is kept constant and use the blade pitch (i.e. deploy angle) to control lift. Also the two rotors are well placed to provide pitch control for the craft: to pitch up all the blades on the front rotor have to provide more lift and all the blades on the aft rotor have to provide less lift (and vice versa for pitching down). After setting these (and reducing the authority limiter on the blades to 2) it flew quite nice.

P.S. We only ever need the *.craft file. The *.loadmeta file is essentially just the thumbnail and will be automatically generated by KSP when needed.

[Vanamonde]

Everybody's helicopters are uncontrollable. Especially the real ones. 

[jaunco325]

6 hours ago, AHHans said:

Well, after fixing some issues (clicking away the "the part FAR whatever part is missing" messages, setting the deploy angle on the blades to 4 on both rotors) it flies O.K.-ish in stock KSP. It doesn't flip out of control on its own, I can get it to climb fairly easily, it can rotate in all three axes, but rotation in pitch is rather sluggish, and getting it to hover or sink at a constant and survivable rate is tricky. The sluggish pitch control is not surprising: that is the axis in which the craft has a high moment of inertia and in which the two rotor disks provide large amounts of drag.

I guess you had problems either because the deploy angle on the aft rotor was set to -0.45 and on the front it was set to 0.0, or because FAR doesn't play well with the helicopter blades.

As I said: I prefer when the rotor RPM is kept constant and use the blade pitch (i.e. deploy angle) to control lift. Also the two rotors are well placed to provide pitch control for the craft: to pitch up all the blades on the front rotor have to provide more lift and all the blades on the aft rotor have to provide less lift (and vice versa for pitching down). After setting these (and reducing the authority limiter on the blades to 2) it flew quite nice.

P.S. We only ever need the *.craft file. The *.loadmeta file is essentially just the thumbnail and will be automatically generated by KSP when needed.

Excuse me, could you explain a little better the changes you made, I didn't understand.
I don't know what the difference between the engines is, check it and I didn't find any. and it can't be the FAR because I already tested the helicopter after uninstalling all the mods, and still presenting problems.
doing more tests I realized that he is lying on his side when he is doing too much lifting force. and that I cannot program the same function on two different controllers, if I put the angle control of the blades on the accelerator and on the pitch axis the latter will not do anything.

[AHHans]

On 11/18/2019 at 1:23 AM, jaunco325 said:

Excuse me, could you explain a little better the changes you made, I didn't understand.

You should be able to get the craft file with my changes here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KRTN5QhF7Xt5brd4ki0R1TuuOPRbFeEi Have a look at the settings for the helicopter blades and the up-down axis action action group to see what I changed.

To take off you first need to start the engines (press <1>) and set engine RPM to max (press <Z>), then you can use the up-/down-translation controls to change the blade pitch: <K> will increase blade pitch and thus increase the lift, <I> will decrease the blade pitch and lift. I usually keep the window of the one the helicopter blades pinned in a corner of the screen, so that I can see what the blade pitch settings are (I.e. the value for "Deplay Angle" in the window).