Extreme Jumping Bases (almost into orbit) - Frustrated

[archiebald]

Hi All,

I have bases on Mun and Minmus built using the KPBS mod v1.6.10.  I'm running KSP 1.8.1 with plenty of mods including World Stabilizer 0.9.7 which helps enormously but it cannot solve my issues as well as Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next v4.1.15. 

The bases work fine, each one has drills, ISRU's tanks, science using a total of around 12 modules each.  They are now mounted on the KPBS wheels permanently because when I left them flat on the surface I had problems with some parts sinking about 1-2 meters.

I am facing the famous old problem with bases jumping and destroying themselves as I bring a lander down for refuelling and get into physics range (2.3km).  It is very random, sometimes after a self destruct, I will load the same save game and landing occurs with no problem, other times the bases will jump off the ground in ridiculous ways - I am not talking a meter or two here. 

Minmus is worse due to the low gravity.  Last night I activated the "no crash damage" and "unbreakable joints" cheat before landing to try to beat the problem but at 2.3km range, the Minmus base didn't just jump, it was more like a launch attempt, achieving an apoapsis of 3.5km before tumbling back to the surface.  It took off in one piece, but even with the cheat menu enabled, some disassembly took place on landing.  If it had more horizontal velocity , I'm sure it could have got into orbit.

The other problem is the age old one of all types of vehicles, bases and landers disappearing many kilometers into the planet as another lander comes into physics range.  This can be corrected by reloading the game but it is very annoying.

Is there nothing that can stop these issues once and for all? - I love this game but I'm getting to the point of turning away from it due to the sheer frustration.

[RizzoTheRat]

Do you have any parts clipped in to other parts?  I believe this can sometimes cause problems on loading physics.

Landing gear and wheels have some known issues too.  Maybe try fiddling with the spring/damper settings. 1.7 Mun base sat on the ground and I used the friction pads from Breaking Ground to hopefully ensure they don't slide.  I didn't have any problems with it sinking in to the ground but I've not built a base in 1.8.1 yet so it might be different, or I might have just got lucky.

[AHHans]

10 hours ago, archiebald said:

Is there nothing that can stop these issues once and for all?

Well, I haven't found a way to get landing legs or landing gear to behave.

What I do, is what @RizzoTheRat hinted at: don't rest the base on landing legs, but on girders or other parts that don't have springs. And the friction pads are indeed a godsend for this: they keep your base from sliding over the ground as well as the landing legs, they offer some cushioning effect, but they don't have these *bleeping* springs. Another approach I use sometimes is to first land on landing legs, and then retract them and rest on a girder structure.

[archiebald]

On 2/12/2020 at 6:21 PM, RizzoTheRat said:

Do you have any parts clipped in to other parts?  I believe this can sometimes cause problems on loading physics.

Landing gear and wheels have some known issues too.  Maybe try fiddling with the spring/damper settings. 1.7 Mun base sat on the ground and I used the friction pads from Breaking Ground to hopefully ensure they don't slide.  I didn't have any problems with it sinking in to the ground but I've not built a base in 1.8.1 yet so it might be different, or I might have just got lucky.

No, I build everything unclipped as a rule.  Also, AFAIK, as long as "Same vessel interaction" is set to off, there should be no issues from clipping, though I could understand there would be if it was set to ON.  See the comment below regarding wheels.

 

On 2/12/2020 at 7:34 PM, AHHans said:

Well, I haven't found a way to get landing legs or landing gear to behave.

What I do, is what @RizzoTheRat hinted at: don't rest the base on landing legs, but on girders or other parts that don't have springs. And the friction pads are indeed a godsend for this: they keep your base from sliding over the ground as well as the landing legs, they offer some cushioning effect, but they don't have these *bleeping* springs. Another approach I use sometimes is to first land on landing legs, and then retract them and rest on a girder structure.

My base on Minmus is on a perfectly flat plain.  Also, I am using Kerbal Planetary Base System with the attachable wheels so I can raise them and just let the base modules sit flat on the ground, but then I found it continually sinking and occasionally exploding due to ground collisions.

I have another older base using stock parts that is on legs.  That had problems before I installed World Stabilizer but nothing seems to change this behavior.  I just want to add that the jumping only occurs when flying into range in another vessel, doesn't happen when I use "Switch to..."

Thanks for your answers but it seems the problem lies elsewhere.

[swjr-swis]

On 2/12/2020 at 10:21 AM, RizzoTheRat said:

Do you have any parts clipped in to other parts?  I believe this can sometimes cause problems on loading physics.

Landing gear and wheels have some known issues too.  Maybe try fiddling with the spring/damper settings.

People need to stop blaming 'user error' on this issue. Regardless of building method or part settings, a landed or splashed down base or vehicle should never, ever be immediately subjected to extreme forces at loading enough to sink, submerge, or launch it.

This keeps happening, and it's an engine/coding error. FIX IT. Suspend the 'game reality' if need be to return to us behaviour according to 'expected reality'. Please.

[AHHans]

4 hours ago, archiebald said:

[...] but then I found it continually sinking and occasionally exploding due to ground collisions.

I don't know, but it could be that the grip pads help here too. The surface of the grip pads has the "is supposed to touch ground" ability that normal parts don't have, so it might help.

48 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

People need to stop blaming 'user error' on this issue.

I agree! And my suggestions are not meant to point out mistakes, but to help work around a bug in the program.

But the issue has been pointed out ages ago, so I don't have much hope that this will be fixed anytime soon.

[Lisias]

I think this can be related to this issue, in special my test craft that demonstrates the problem:

https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/24614#change-138874

I make an engine to bounce on the ground, instead of exploding.

Perhaps the PQS.radiusmax fix mentioned on the KSP 1.9 could help on this issue?

[RizzoTheRat]

9 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

People need to stop blaming 'user error' on this issue. Regardless of building method or part settings, a landed or splashed down base or vehicle should never, ever be immediately subjected to extreme forces at loading enough to sink, submerge, or launch it.

This keeps happening, and it's an engine/coding error. FIX IT. Suspend the 'game reality' if need be to return to us behaviour according to 'expected reality'. Please.

Completely agree but as none of us on here have the power to fix it any suggestion here is going to be workarounds to avoid running in to the issue.

Of course if the fix to prevent people clipping parts in the VAB I think most of us would prefer to have the problem back  

13 hours ago, archiebald said:

No, I build everything unclipped as a rule.  Also, AFAIK, as long as "Same vessel interaction" is set to off, there should be no issues from clipping, though I could understand there would be if it was set to ON.  See the comment below regarding wheels.

"Should" being the key word there   I don't know if there are some parts that always have same vessel interaction turned on, the say way that some parts have autostruts permanently on (which is a pain in the @&$£ is you're trying to fit landing gear too close to something that hinges.

[Sixer]

Feb 18 2021 , i have the same trouble on minmus , i have a bunch of stuff landed on minmus , when i use next target button ']'  ALL items make a little jump , if i try to quickly go tru the targets, the little jumps get stacked and end result , exploding stuff , breaking of hinges and landing struts  ect ect , and worst of all  Dying of innocent kerbals  working in those bases.

Switching to makes selected target not jump , But the rest on the surface does make a little jump.

please fix..

[Omar X]

A few years ago I discovered a 100% fix for the Kraken death shake, that too frequently destroys our work. It's simple, when docking two craft, immediately assign a new control point. Choose any part that has the option "control from here", and assign it. I'm trying to find a modder to help me create a mod/plugin to do this automatically. 

I'm wondering if doing this approach for bases might have the same effect. Before leaving a base you've been working on, assign a specific control point, and see what happens next time it loads.

If you try this, please let me know if it works. Still gathering data on the procedure.