[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[Rakaydos]

Built a new tanker/crew rotation spaceplane, and just put 20 kerbals into a 80km orbit with over 3600 oxidiser and over 3100 liquid fuel left, with over a thousand monoprop for docking the monster. (because that was the size of the mk 3 monoprop tank)

Say what you will about biplane designs- the wing strengths range from .2 at the wingtip to .8 at the root. The crossstrutting does wonders for them despite the flimsy wing material.

1500 D/V on Rapiers, twice that on nukes alone, if you unlock the foward tank. More if you drain the monoprop.

[Horus]

Sorry for a stupid question\request:

Is it possible to return CoL force vector indicator in SPH/VAB? Sometimes it's quite inconvenient without it.

[DaMichel]

Ferram4, i think i found another bug: Cd prediction in the Data+Stability GUI does not agree with the in-flight data. It seems to be mostly the case for high speed high altitude flight. I noticed because i still get large drag coefficients. So large that even L/D<1. Never seen that before either. See here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g2uhqx2pt187q4x/screenshot17.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b3fk06t1y1kwth1/screenshot21.png?dl=0

Note L/D ratio in both cases. I tried to reproduce the flight conditions in in the analysis gui. AoA agrees fairly well. Wing area, too. No craft file this time, because i have some of unfinished custom parts on them, sorry.

Edit: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x15x06vo3kj775t/far%20odd%20drag%20issue%202.craft?dl=0

same issue, just different numbers

Edited December 28, 2014 by DaMichel

[cicatrix]

I'm experiencing a strange glitch with with FAR:

When in orbit, I press M key for map and my ship disassembles itself and F3 log shows 'aerodynamic failure' (it's been turned off in FAR options) and the debug log shows tons of errors, see pic:

What might be the cause? The problem disappears if I remove FAR

[Rakaydos]

Ferram4, i think i found another bug: Cd prediction in the Data+Stability GUI does not agree with the in-flight data. It seems to be mostly the case for high speed high altitude flight. I noticed because i still get large drag coefficients. So large that even L/D<1. Never seen that before either. See here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g2uhqx2pt187q4x/screenshot17.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b3fk06t1y1kwth1/screenshot21.png?dl=0

Note L/D ratio in both cases. I tried to reproduce the flight conditions in in the analysis gui. AoA agrees fairly well. Wing area, too. No craft file this time, because i have some of unfinished custom parts on them, sorry.

Edit: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x15x06vo3kj775t/far%20odd%20drag%20issue%202.craft?dl=0

same issue, just different numbers

I've had similar high-drag results, though I havnt done the side by side comparison wih the VAB you seem to have. (I've just been sucking it up and lighting rockets early.)

[Montaño]

I think the VAB value is, actually, the product of drag coefficient and reference area.

[ferram4]

@DaMichel: Expected behavior for high altitude flight; the Data+Stability GUI does not account for Reynolds number.

@cicatrix: Never seen it happen before. Need a full mod list, full copy of the log, and full reproduction steps, otherwise, I can't help you.

Also, if it's talking about aerodynamic failures occurring, you didn't disable them. Aerodynamic failures only occur if they are enabled; it is impossible for them to occur if they are not.

[Matt516]

Updating to new version - just delete the old folder in GameData and replace it with the new?

[FlynCow]

KSP Was stuck loading after installing FAR.

log:

[LOG 20:57:39.949] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'WarpPlugin/Parts/Engines/vista/part/vista'

[LOG 20:57:39.954] Added sound_rocket_hard to FXGroup running

[EXC 20:57:39.970] FileNotFoundException: Could not load file or assembly 'KSPAPIExtensions, Version=1.7.2.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' or one of its dependencies.

System.MonoCustomAttrs.GetCustomAttributesBase (ICustomAttributeProvider obj, System.Type attributeType)

System.MonoCustomAttrs.GetCustomAttributes (ICustomAttributeProvider obj, System.Type attributeType, Boolean inherit)

System.Reflection.MonoField.GetCustomAttributes (System.Type attributeType, Boolean inherit)

BaseFieldList.CreateList (System.Type type, System.Object instance)

BaseFieldList..ctor (UnityEngine.Component host)

PartModule.ModularSetup ()

PartModule.Awake ()

UnityEngine.GameObject:AddComponent(Type)

Part:AddModule(String)

Part:AddModule(ConfigNode)

PartLoader:ParsePart(UrlConfig, ConfigNode)

:MoveNext()

[EXC 20:57:39.974] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

PartModule.Load (.ConfigNode node)

Part.AddModule (.ConfigNode node)

PartLoader.ParsePart (.UrlConfig urlConfig, .ConfigNode node)

PartLoader+.MoveNext ()

[LOG 20:57:39.984] [KSP Interstellar] Hydrogen resource name set to LiquidFuel

[LOG 20:57:39.984] [KSP Interstellar] Oxygen resource name set to Oxidizer

[LOG 20:57:39.984] [KSP Interstellar] Aluminium resource name set to Aluminium

[LOG 20:57:39.985] [KSP Interstellar] Methane resource name set to LqdMethane

[LOG 20:57:39.985] [KSP Interstellar] Argon resource name set to ArgonGas

[LOG 20:57:39.986] [KSP Interstellar] Water resource name set to Water

[LOG 20:57:39.986] [KSP Interstellar] Hydrogen Peroxide resource name set to H2Peroxide

[LOG 20:57:39.987] [KSP Interstellar] Ammonia resource name set to Ammonia

[EXC 20:57:39.990] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

ModuleJettison.OnStart (StartState state)

Part.ModulesOnStart ()

Part+.MoveNext ()

[LOG 20:58:34.635] [smokeScreen ModelMultiParticlePersistFX] OnDestroy

Mod list:

B9

P. Wings

KSP Interstellar(and all dependencies)

KW Rocketry

Community Resource Pack

ScanSAT

Kerbal Joint Reinforement

Deadly Reentry

Kerbal Engineer

I could fix it by installing KSPAPIExtensions.

Edited December 28, 2014 by tetryds
Fixed spoilers.

[tetryds]

Updating to new version - just delete the old folder in GameData and replace it with the new?

Yes, always do that.

I would recommend doing that with every mod to avoid issues.

Just be careful with mods which have maps or something like that (like kethane).

And suddenly everything behind an air intake creates an insane ammount of drag.

I was playing normally, but after messing around on the UIs this started to happen.

Planes which used to have Cd of 0.032 jumping up to 0.120 with this, that is weird.

Here is a pic:

Will restart the game and see if it persists.

Edit: Yes, it persist.

I cannot get those parts to be shielded at all, they behave exactly like if there is nothing in front of them, I just tried.

It's like if the node was free.

It probably has to do with the latest fix.

Edited December 28, 2014 by tetryds

[GigaG]

Is Duna aerobraking and landing under chute more difficult with FAR? I'm worried about aerodynamic failures from high-speed chute deployment - that even happens in stock, where parachute deployment tears landers apart..

[tetryds]

Quickfix for the issue above, update your craft somehow, ejecting something can work.

@GigaG: it's just less simple, if you fall straight on the planet you wil not break quickly enough and parachutes will rip you apart.

Try figuring out the best way to lose speed as much as you can before you are low enough for parachutes.

[GigaG]

I don't fall straight down. I parachute down. I think I'll be using more drogues to slow myself so I don't tear myself apart upon full deployment.

[ferram4]

@FlynCow: If you are trying to use a mod that requires KSPAPIExtensions and you don't have it, then you will have issues. If KSPAPIExtensions is the issue, FAR is not; FAR has no dependence on KSPAPI whatsoever.

@tetryds: I cannot reproduce the issue; do you have a log?

[Behemoth1702]

Hello guys,

first of all - ferram, thanks for the update.

Now onto my problems:

Short - how do I get this red number to go away? It appears that when going DOWN my plane wants to PICH UP, right? I have no idea how to fix this. :-/

http://imgur.com/a/k6gYw

I'm trying out some tanker designs (clearly influenced by Wanderfound) and I'm struggeling with side slip and this one. Is it normal for a plane to become unstable (some red numbers) during a certain area just to become stable in another area again?

For example - with altitude the amount of red numbers at set speed increases (1.5 mach at 15km). I "fix" this, by increasing speed. Is this normal/expected behaviour?

If anyone wants to muck with it, here's the craft file. Tell me what's wrong with this plane. :-/

http://www./download/97erveg47h6i5uv/Mega_Tanker_TEST.craft

Edited December 28, 2014 by Behemoth1702

[ferram4]

Well, that means that your plane is pitch-unstable at that flight condition (high angle of attack, high Mach number). You'll have to do the same thing that's always done when something is pitch-unstable: shift the CoL further back. Alternatively, avoid that flight condition; high AoA high MAch number flight is often difficult to stabilize.

[tetryds]

@ferram: here is it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/drrifanr9e4f372/tetryds%20output_log.txt?dl=0

I am also having several issues with the graphs, they don't seem to be working accuratelly with deployed flaps and spoilers, strange.

Didn't go deep to see what is wrong, but I am sure there is something wrong.

[blowfish]

Hello guys,

first of all - ferram, thanks for the update.

Now onto my problems:

Short - how do I get this red number to go away? It appears that when going DOWN my plane wants to PICH UP, right? I have no idea how to fix this. :-/

http://imgur.com/a/k6gYw

I'm trying out some tanker designs (clearly influenced by Wanderfound) and I'm struggeling with side slip and this one. Is it normal for a plane to become unstable (some red numbers) during a certain area just to become stable in another area again?

For example - with altitude the amount of red numbers at set speed increases (1.5 mach at 15km). I "fix" this, by increasing speed. Is this normal/expected behaviour?

If anyone wants to muck with it, here's the craft file. Tell me what's wrong with this plane. :-/

http://www./download/97erveg47h6i5uv/Mega_Tanker_TEST.craft

As a side note, you're going to have major stability issues when the tanks are empty because the CoM is shifting back so much.

[Elthy]

I have encountered a bug in my installation and i hope you can help me resolve it:

Conditions:

KSP 0.90x32 on Windows 7 64bit with opengl

Mods:

Jumbo 32 RSS config

Mechjeb (with FAR extentions)

FAR (14.6)

KW Rocketry

Smartparts

Space Suttle Engines

Quantumstruts Continued

ActiveTextureManagement

KerbalJointReinforcement

KSPX

Tweakscale

Trajectories

Whats happening: When i install a engine on a fueltank not in the center node (with a cubic strut or a radial attachment point) FAR isnt enabled while flying this vehicle. That results in the FAR GUI not opening, also im back to stock aerodynamics. Example craft: http://i.imgur.com/00Z9puV.jpg

Log: http://www.file-upload.net/download-10062092/output_log.txt.html

The craft in the image should only be affected by FAR and Mechjeb, i didnt use any modparts. But when i tried to reproduce this bug on a fresh install with only mechjeb+FAR it was working as supposed. Can you help my spot the problem?

[Behemoth1702]

Well, that means that your plane is pitch-unstable at that flight condition (high angle of attack, high Mach number). You'll have to do the same thing that's always done when something is pitch-unstable: shift the CoL further back. Alternatively, avoid that flight condition; high AoA high MAch number flight is often difficult to stabilize.

Thank you for the reply.

Putting CoL back helped but did not completely solve the problem. I will try around a bit more.

@High drag behind air intakes - can reproduce this with this aircraft:

http://www./download/2b9tu760o1lk4yd/Mega+Explorer+Mk1+LongRange.craft

Log:

http://www./download/qb2qvl1mvya0ld6/Kerbal+Space+Program.7z

[Wanderfound]

I'm finding that the new upper-atmosphere drag has my spaceplanes reentering from LKO slowing down to below hypersonic (< Mach 5) before they even reach 30,000m. This is making default-difficulty DRE irrelevant unless I'm coming in for a direct reentry from interplanetary. Is this working as intended?

It's the latest version of each.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Wanderfound

[tetryds]

I'm finding that the new upper-atmosphere drag has my spaceplanes reentering from LKO slowing down to below hypersonic (< Mach 5) before they even reach 30,000m. This is making default-difficulty DRE irrelevant unless I'm coming in for a direct reentry from interplanetary. Is this working as intended?

It's the latest version of each.

Yeah, it seems to be working as intended, I guess that DRE needs a rebalance for FAR.

[Wanderfound]

Behemoth: pitch up problems mean a lack of longitudinal stability. Either shift CoM forwards (to give the tailplane more leverage), reduce lift forward of CoM (reduce pitch-up force), or increase lift rear of CoM (increase pitch-down force).

As you gain altitude, the air thins. This reduces the force available to your aero surfaces. Thus, increased speed is required for stability at increased altitudes. An aerodynamically messy craft can be forced through the upper atmosphere by gaining sufficient speed at lower altitudes.

From the pic, you've taken the Wedgetail airframe, shifted the wings forwards a bit and added a small tailplane. The tailplane partially compensates for the wing shift, but not enough. Try removing the canards and cranking up the control authority on the elevators. Shifting the wings forwards would have also slightly reduced lateral stability (the dihedral wingtips have a small rudder effect). Some dihedral on the tailplane may help, as would cloning the forward extension of the central fin to the lateral ones.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Wanderfound

[ferram4]

@tetryds: I can't see anything wrong in the logs, and the graphs are now more accurate than they've ever been.

@Elthy: Did your test install include the MJ FARExt? There were exceptions thrown by that, which means it probably needs a recompile to work with FAR 0.14.6.

@Behemoth1702: I see the issue; for some reason the circular intakes and ram air intakes always cause this issue. I'll see what's up.

Also, for future reference, providing a craft file without stating the required part mods for it makes testing using it a bother.

@Wanderfound: Welcome to "the orbital velocities are tiny" issues of KSP. Take it to the DRE thread, they're already making reentry heat harder than reality to make it work with stock KSP, it'll need to be made even harder, I guess.

[tetryds]

@tetryds: I can't see anything wrong in the logs, and the graphs are now more accurate than they've ever been.

Will try to figure out what is going on then.

This drag thing looks a lot like the old cargo bay issue, that required you to open and close the bay for it to stop giving an insane drag.

Hmm, maybe the inconsistency I noticed on the graphs come from this issue, as I noticed it before I saw the drag problem (shifting my COA forwards... you can guess what happens after).

Will give them another try.

And reinstall the mod, OFC.

Edit: what is strange is that I set flaps and spoilers fully deployed and both Cl and Cd barely respond to it, while in flight they have a big effect.

In flight, the Cd under low AoA (0~5deg) triples (0.035 to 0.100+) with spoilers deployed.

The lift also drops a lot, but I didn't pay attention to it.

Is this right and I am too blind to notice? http://imgur.com/d2dVUOu,e9xcsW9

If anything, the graph only updates at the second time I press Sweep AoA, I don't know if it's intended.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems okay.

The small drag variation seems to be caused by the previous issue as I thought.

Edited December 29, 2014 by tetryds