[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[Behemoth1702]

@Behemoth1702: I see the issue; for some reason the circular intakes and ram air intakes always cause this issue. I'll see what's up.

Also, for future reference, providing a craft file without stating the required part mods for it makes testing using it a bother.

Wow, sorry! I totally missed that! Won't happen again!

Any way we can help more to find the issue?

[Elthy]

@Elthy: Did your test install include the MJ FARExt? There were exceptions thrown by that, which means it probably needs a recompile to work with FAR 0.14.6.

Yes, that was included in my test install. It did work...

[ferram4]

Well, I came up with a fix for the intake issue, but I have no idea why it keeps thinking the parts are clipping. Dammit Squad, why'd you have to declare part clipping a feature rather than treating it as a bug like it is?

The requiring a second pass of the AoA Sweep was fixed. What the hell? *sigh*

I'm at the point of about-to-give-up for all of this. It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever Squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make FAR incapable of working anyway, so FAR is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

Edit: Found out why the editor GUIs were wrong; I was being overly paranoid about setting the initial conditions right and actually messed things up; dev build has it fixed. FAR v0.14.6.1 will be out whenever I get confirmation that there aren't more bugs that require fixing.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ferram4

[DivisionByZero]

well, i came up with a fix for the intake issue, but i have no idea why it keeps thinking the parts are clipping. Dammit squad, why'd you have to declare part clipping a feature rather than treating it as a bug like it is?

The requiring a second pass of the aoa sweep was fixed. what the hell? *sigh*

i'm at the point of about-to-give-up for all of this. It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make far incapable of working anyway, so far is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!

[Kolago]

I am looking for a FAR-Config for the "Gridfins" included in "Kerbonov Kn-2 Cockpit Module"

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/66502-Kerbonov-Kn-2-Cockpit-Module

[DaMichel]

@DaMichel: Expected behavior for high altitude flight; the Data+Stability GUI does not account for Reynolds number.

Mkay ... but you can change that for the Data+Stability GUI?!

Apart from that, i guess i need to add more engines then

P.S. Never give up, never surrender!!

[plausse]

Just wanted to give a friendly thanks - and say that I would happily pay at least half the game price for FAR... Atmospheric flight just doesn't make sense without. And free troubleshooting support almost as good as Ubisoft and EA.

Edit: Ferram's support is great. Ubi's is not.. Just thought I should make that clear.

Edited December 29, 2014 by plausse
Clarification

[cicatrix]

@cicatrix: Never seen it happen before. Need a full mod list, full copy of the log, and full reproduction steps, otherwise, I can't help you.

Also, if it's talking about aerodynamic failures occurring, you didn't disable them. Aerodynamic failures only occur if they are enabled; it is impossible for them to occur if they are not.

Aerodynamic failures ARE disabled. I triple-checked:

Toolbar

Chatterer

Community Resource Pack

RCSLandAid

FAR

Firespitter

KAS

Kerbal Engineer

Kerbal Joint Reinforcement

HyperEdit

KW Rocketry

MechJeb2

Docking port alignment indicator

Final Frontier

Procedural Wings

Procedural Fairings

RCS Build Aid

Real Chute

Regolith

SCANSAT

ScienceAlert

Stage Recovery

Texture Replacer

Trajectories

Kerbal Alarm Clock

Karbonite

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l99qthqs53bpiy9/prior%20to%20dismemberment.sfs?dl=0

All is needed for me for active vessel to fall apart is press M for map view.

[tetryds]

Well, I came up with a fix for the intake issue, but I have no idea why it keeps thinking the parts are clipping. Dammit Squad, why'd you have to declare part clipping a feature rather than treating it as a bug like it is?

The requiring a second pass of the AoA Sweep was fixed. What the hell? *sigh*

I'm at the point of about-to-give-up for all of this. It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever Squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make FAR incapable of working anyway, so FAR is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

Edit: Found out why the editor GUIs were wrong; I was being overly paranoid about setting the initial conditions right and actually messed things up; dev build has it fixed. FAR v0.14.6.1 will be out whenever I get confirmation that there aren't more bugs that require fixing.

Agreed.

And I am fine sticking to 0.90 if FAR will not work/take a while to work with the next update, and I am sure most of people around do too, so it's not a wasted effort at all.

So, it's not that big deal that it will stop working and can take long to work again on the next version, it works now and that is what really matters.

Updating, will check if it's fine now.

[Voculus]

I'm at the point of about-to-give-up for all of this. It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever Squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make FAR incapable of working anyway, so FAR is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

Well I hope that's not true. As the mod author, you're peppered with all of the negatives that come with it, and only a handful of thanks. Personally, I would never play KSP again without FAR. It's that well-made, and that essential to making the game whole. Tweaking control surfaces, wing weights, analyzing, and all that good stuff, offers the same brain-engaging gaming goodness as the core of KSP does itself. Your work is remarkable! People generally don't come to the forums to gush about how much they like this or that, but you can be assured your efforts are not wasted. Not even a little bit. They're quite valued, and I would even suggest throwing up a PayPal link for donations. It'll never pay for all of your time, but I'd definitely express my thanks in that way if I could.

[TheReaper]

Question:

when i use this mod all my intakes show 0 drag. This mod also messes with vanilla game's CoL indicator in hangar which i learned is normal. Does the game also falsely show 0 drag in intakes like false info it gives on CoL indicator or my drag is really 0? i dont really know, my planes do go off a bit fast but i think that would be normal becouse this mod thins the air a bit so you wont feel like you are swimming in air. I dont know what is true and what is not anymore in aerodynamics. pls help

EDIT: NEAR has the same problem as well.

[cantab]

It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever Squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make FAR incapable of working anyway, so FAR is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

Well, we'll all have to wait and see. If Squad don't get an expert in - and unless you're keeping very quiet about it they haven't got you in at least - then I don't think they'll get a very good aerodynamic model in stock, meaning there'll still be some interest in FAR. Then it's "just" a case of finding a way to null out the new stock aerodynamics.

[Voculus]

Question:

when i use this mod all my intakes show 0 drag. This mod also messes with vanilla game's CoL indicator in hangar which i learned is normal. Does the game also falsely show 0 drag in intakes like false info it gives on CoL indicator or my drag is really 0? i dont really know, my planes do go off a bit fast but i think that would be normal becouse this mod thins the air a bit so you wont feel like you are swimming in air. I dont know what is true and what is not anymore in aerodynamics. pls help

EDIT: NEAR has the same problem as well.

Don't think of it as false info. The stock aerodynamics model is a placeholder, and always has been. I won't go into all the gritty details, but you can rest assured there is no more accurate flight model for KSP than what FAR offers.

[TheReaper]

Don't think of it as false info. The stock aerodynamics model is a placeholder, and always has been. I won't go into all the gritty details, but you can rest assured there is no more accurate flight model for KSP than what FAR offers.

So the values i see are just place holders, but the actual aerodynamics of the game works as good as it can? Well thats good enough. Thanks

Well, we'll all have to wait and see. If Squad don't get an expert in - and unless you're keeping very quiet about it they haven't got you in at least - then I don't think they'll get a very good aerodynamic model in stock, meaning there'll still be some interest in FAR. Then it's "just" a case of finding a way to null out the new stock aerodynamics.

i am new to this convesation but i think ferram is about to give up. Well i would like to start by its his choice. Second and more important point : Yes squad may implemend this or NEAR to stock.. but people are actualy glorifying whats happening about it. Yes its a good thing on paper sinse devs saw the fan work as a quality software and decided to take it. But the frustrating fact is that its more of a credit steal then actual game implementation. Mods get into stock, Modders are supposely hired to squad. Mods official place in forum is closed becouse no longer needed, once the mod is kept updated for the actual game.. The modder is also done for. Squad wont remember you, you wont get any golden seat in credits. you are used. You might go into classic fan-boy argument but i would like to not give names as proof in this stage.

Sadly more wastefull behavior was set for fans who werent modders but told the devs that mathematics or physics in the game can be updated. They are hugely discredited and ashamed by squad, and made sure no one hears about these talks. I came across them in lost pages of steam forums.

In final analyses, as devs or other fans behave, i know what i am going to do. i alway do support amd remember people who produce quality software. in this case, Ferram will be remembered.

Thank you for your efforts so far.

[Behemoth1702]

I'm at the point of about-to-give-up for all of this. It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever Squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make FAR incapable of working anyway, so FAR is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

Dude. I'll keep it short. It's your choice but please do not quit. You work is honoured. It's amazing and mind blowing. It should be stock and you should get paid for it, get mentioned and thanked and the whole deal! I play with FAR for 3-4 days right now, can't imagine myself playing without it anymore, although its tough as .... and already asked for a donation link to express my thanks in something more than just words in an internet forum.

Please man, do not quit, put up a donation link please and keep on trucking. The "bug reports" here are not here to say that you've messed up. They're more or less people that ask for help from you. And are thankful for it.

Donation link.

[bdito]

I just want to add that even when Squad implements their new aerodynamic model I'm sure they won't have any of the information windows or diagnostic features that FAR has. So even after the change your tools would be greatly desired.

[wasmic]

This addon is an absolute necessity for me, and for many others who play KSP. Please don't quit, unless something in real life is more important. If you put up a donate button, I wouldn't mind buying you a cup of coffee.

[camlost]

You guys misunderstood things. First, ferram4 is not quitting, he simply implied giving up the current implement of determining wing geometry because it is difficult to maintain. Second, the GPL license clearly dictates that FAR cannot be used as part of a proprietary software. If they want it in game, they have to ask, and they haven't.

[tetryds]

You guys misunderstood things. First, ferram4 is not quitting, he simply implied giving up the current implement of determining wing geometry because it is difficult to maintain. Second, the GPL license clearly dictates that FAR cannot be used as part of a proprietary software. If they want it in game, they have to ask, and they haven't.

From what I heard, FAR's licence is so complicated that it would be worth rewriting everything from zero to add it on stock game (not my words).

But yeah, I guess you are right about that.

[m4ti140]

I'm at the point of about-to-give-up for all of this. It's just not worth it, and let's face it, whatever Squad comes up with for their stock aero will probably make FAR incapable of working anyway, so FAR is probably a dead-mod-walking right now.

Do you really think Squad is going to come up with something better then you? Harvester stated on numerous occasions that they didn't know -anything- about aerospace engineering when they started working on KSP. That means they still don't and probably never will understand fluid mechanics to the degree that allows them to implement them into the game in a way you did. Best thing they can do is find a speciallist in aerodynamics or hire YOU. If you stop the development while KSP is still in beta I'm going to stick to whatever version you finnish at and even if KSP hits gold I'm still going to play beta. I study Aerospace Engineering and I cannot imagine playing KSP without FAR. It may just be a game I sometimes play in my free time, but knowing how it should work I just cannot stand the way it works in stock. Even if they get to the point of NEAR, there still gonna be a lot to improve upon. FAR is not just a "fix" or "improvement" for stock aerodynamics anymore, it's a complex aerodynamics simulation tool that a lot of Kerbonauts can't play without. Even Scott Manley uses it. Imagine what would Interstellar Quest look like without your contribution in form of FAR? Where would all those awesome spaceplanes people created with FAR go? Everyone would still go away from it knowing more about aerodynamics, but it wouldn't be the same anymore. No matter what Squad does, if they improve aerodynamics at all, it won't be as detailed as your work. I doubt it's gonna be much more advanced then it's now, they may find a better approximation for calculation of drag, but that's it. That would be just another stock thing to disable, to make space for real deal.

Sorry for the wall of text

Back to topic, I actually came here to report that I got a CTD when I touched the deflection slider in SPH, has anyone else encountered this problem?

EDIT: Nevermind, probably not related to FAR, I got a CTD in SPH later on without apparent reason and then I couldn't reproduce it anymore. Wierd.

Edited December 30, 2014 by m4ti140

[cantab]

The GPL is pretty straightforward.

From reading the FSF's advice, my understanding is that anybody may lawfully distribute FAR and provided they include FAR's source incur no further obligations in doing so, except Squad who would then be required to make KSP's source available. That restriction does seem odd to say the least. But mind you I am not a software lawyer.

[Behemoth1702]

Another one:

You must not quit. I even got my girl to build and airplane today. First time she heard of CoM and CoL and she built a pretty okay jumbo that actually flies pretty well in the atmosphere, hahaha.

Here are some pics. Note the perfectly aligned wing parts. "It has to be pretty." Ahahaha.

http://imgur.com/a/nyBOl

[ferram4]

It's not like everything in stock is fixable or moddable. Let me give you an example of what would kill FAR and all other aerodynamic mods off completely:

1. The new aero model is coded with all its variables hardcoded. At this point, short of removing all atmospheres and trying to add my own, there's nothing I can do to remove the model.
   
2. The new aero model is coded so that all its fields and methods are private, and they are reset every frame to handle the aerodynamics changing. At this point, I'd need to run multiple reflection calls every frame, and that would be laggier than FAR has ever been.
   
3. The new aero model isn't private, but placing 0s in fields results in NaN errors everywhere and there's no way to shut it off completely.
   

Depending on how they do things, any of these are possible, and if they happen, there's not much I can do to keep FAR and NEAR alive. It is in their power to kill FAR and pretty much the entire realism-focused modding community with this. I really hope they don't, but I know better than to hope; it just makes things worse if it all falls apart.

[Climberfx]

Until today, i can say they made all the game, and until now, we have a lot of mods working just fine. I don't think they wanna change that behavior just with the new aerodynamics.

So, i would say, forgot about that, and let to worry just if it happen, because this is the less possible result.

[BudgetHedgehog]

If they do any of those options and fall flat on their own aerodynamics, it will be the biggest mistake Squad makes in the entirety of KSP. I can't help shake the nagging feeling that the overhaul will be to NEAR what NEAR is to FAR - better than stock but way worse than it should be. If you're not on the experimentals/QA team, you should be. Say to them 'look, I know my stuff. Don't do it that way, do this instead. Trust me. Yes, it's a big leap of faith, but I have tens of thousands of players who use FAR and that shows what they want from an aerodynamics model. If you're going to do it, do it right, or at least don't mess it up so much that I can't fix it'. It would behoove Squad to pay attention to whatever advice you give about the aerodynamics, that's for sure.