[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[Hektos]

Stick an antenna on the front of the plane, that will help with that initial spike in cross section. Also don't be afraid to add low weight parts just for the smoothing they provide. You look like you have ~20 parts so you have a little leeway part count wise even for the lvl1 SPH.

HA! Nice! That got me another 5 m/s at 10km

I think at this point I just need to unlock more parts so I can build more efficient designs.

[futrtrubl]

HA! Nice! That got me another 5 m/s at 10km

I think at this point I just need to unlock more parts so I can build more efficient designs.

I would recommend you "unlock" (ie install ;'] ) Procedural Parts. This will allow you great tuning ability without being unbalanced.

[Wanderfound]

@Wanderfound: I don't use AJE when designing stock example craft. Random wiggle isn't going to do it, considering that I've launched it a ton without that happening. You didn't angle it back down from its 5-degree-up position before launching, did you?

Didn't touch it; haven't even loaded it in the VAB. I clicked the runway, selected the ship, and had my hands off the keyboard as the physics loaded and it tipped back. I did activate the brakes while waiting for the physics to load, though.

Maybe CrzyRndm has the answer?

[chootrain]

I ran into a peculiar bug. Forgive me if its not caused by FAR, but its most likely FAR.

I decoupled a spacecraft (pod) from the rocket using right click -> decouple, and as soon as the ship entered the atmosphere, there was no aerodynamic forces.

Please see the screenshot

I resolved the issue by reloading the game, and "staging some fake stages" (create a stage on the fly then staging the blank stage).

I'm using the latest FAR version (fanno 15.1.0)

[ferram4]

Once again, everyone say it with me, post the output log. Just telling me, "something borke!" with no context basically tells me... nothing. I have no way to fix this.

And honestly, at this point you're hurting yourselves and everyone else. I have bugfixes for things that I would like to release, but I can't with show-stopping bugs around. And if people don't provide logs and full, absolute, completely, start-from-scratch-this-will-always-cause-the-bug reproduction steps, I can't close any of these issues and until they're closed, I can't release bugfixes.

Seriously, this thread is starting to get bug reports with quality comparable to the MJ thread. You people are better than that, act it.

[jrandom]

Designing for minimal wave drag is one of the most ridiculously difficult things I've ever attempted, and I write genetic simulations for fun.

I don't even know how well this flies yet; I've just spend the last two hours tweaking fuselages and wings and boy do those landing gear really mess things up. We need retracts-completely-flush-with-whatever-surface-it's-bound-to landing gear. Actually, what we need is a full suite of 3D modeling tools. Wouldn't that be a hell of a thing in a game like Kerbal...

Edit: I was so wrapped up in modifying curves that I totally missed the fact that my primary lifting surfaces are waaaay too far forward. That thing does NOT fly well. Ah well, t'was just prototype #1...

Edited May 13, 2015 by jrandom

[Lakel]

so experimenting with B9 pwings and nufar, going well. then this creature arises:

them sideslip numbers the result of careful acceleration

insane drag and lift. 50% power results in it accelerating 1m/s a second, up to 4m/s where-by it suffers major aero-stress failure. seems to be trying to backflip, stopped by the engines

Grabbed the 15.1 far just a couple hours ago, and running 1.0.2 ksp craft file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4dt9ynlnxhbrx6w/Mog.craft?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8oddiheeym7dreq/output_log.txt?dl=0

was a decent experimental craft, and then i went nuts with the wing.

[jab136]

I was just wondering what the modular flight integrator dll that is in FAR and DRE does exactly, I assume that the dll from either will suffice?

[NathanKell]

MODERATOR NOTICE

If you want to talk about a bug you've encountered in FAR, but don't provide the logs, please take it elsewhere. Create a thread in Support (Modded installs), say. That's off-topic for this thread.

[Hektos]

I would recommend you "unlock" (ie install ;'] ) Procedural Parts. This will allow you great tuning ability without being unbalanced.

LOL. I'm assuming that is that the wings from B9? I did grab those but I still have no unlocked that node xD

[futrtrubl]

LOL. I'm assuming that is that the wings from B9? I did grab those but I still have no unlocked that node xD

Nope, not wings, these are procedural structural and tank parts. So PP with B9 or PW and you are almost there ;']

[FourGreenFields]

@FourGreenFields: Throw me the craft file. Maybe something particularly bad is breaking.

http://www33.zippyshare.com/v/cI7moXMl/file.html

Well, for me it certainly is particulary bad. I love that plane. <3

[ferram4]

@Lakel: I cannot reproduce. I just loaded it up in both my dev build and a clean Fanno install and it works perfectly fine. Takes off around 100 m/s, needs some control changes because it responds backwards to roll inputs, but otherwise it seems alright, if maybe it has too large a bit of dihedral effect.

Full reproduction steps?

@jab136: It lets FAR and DR and whatever else override different parts of FlightIntegrator without interfering with each other.

[DaMichel]

happens to be a great success. Rather by chance. Didn't expect my first try to work out this well. But it goes through Mach 1 like through butter. It is somewhat pitch & roll happy but can be controlled with enough attention. Reached space on 50% throttle. Seems easier than stock tbh.

Previously i managed to get some unwieldy (unstable) rockets to space. Quite easily. There is just one rule. Never deviate too much from prograde .

Edited May 13, 2015 by DaMichel

[bagofholding]

I finally had the zero aerodynamic forces bug happen to me again at the end of quite a long playing session. I don't recall it happening directly on the launch pad from the editor but it did this time. If you have the FAR window open and are in atmo you know the bug is happening when Mach (if you're moving) and reynolds stay at zero. I launched without realizing but it wasn't all bad since areo couldn't hold me back!

I have a feeling that it may be related to memory usage issues since it seems sporadic and not easily repeatable. When the bug is happening it seems that FAR gets stuck in a loop trying to voxelize the craft.

I am using Ferram 0.15.1.

I have a pastebin of the log of the craft going from the editor to the launchpad. The message that winds up repeating over and over is: [LOG timestamp] Updating vessel voxel for <vessel name>

I have a clip of the log here: http://pastebin.com/chuNsU9r

This issue also happened to me when returning to a craft from the tracking station. However, when you do that FAR does not display Mach or Reynolds until you hit atmo and at that point if you are set to hit the ground you're doomed. (ie suborbital flights.) If you're orbital but set a PE in the lower atmo then you're fine if you have enough electric charge to reload the game once you get back out of the atmo. Until this bug is tracked down hard mode may be extra FUN. I modified mine and now quicksave before atmo reentry.

Let me know if you want to look at anything else in the log file I would likely zip and post it since the darn thing uncompressed is 7.7MB.

The first time it happened it was on a craft using just stock parts besides the RealchuteLite modified chutes that came with Ferram. I have yet to use Procedural tanks on any of my craft.

For all I know one of your current fixes that are in Github takes care of the issue but I'm not set up to compile the source and try out those recent changes for myself.

Let me know if there is anything else you need ferram4 and I'll to my best to assist you and I'll try to assist you in the morning. 3AM is much too late to be working on this issue any longer!

Thanks for the awsome mod, ferram4!

[Lakel]

Best guess is something got messed up on my end then, clean install fixed it. this thing rolls surprisingly quick with the controls sorted out

[bagofholding]

Ugg...first time I tried to post his and the forum kraken seemed to eat it...take 2 at 3:10am!

Thanks for the hard work on FAR, ferram4.

I finally ran into the zero aerodynamics bug again today and this time it actually started on the rocket launchpad. Previous times had been when returning to a vessel from the tracking station.

It appears to get stuck in a loop trying to Update the Vessel Voxel.

A clip of the log going from the VAB to the Pad is here: http://pastebin.com/chuNsU9r

Let me know if you would like other bits of the log (it was 7.7MB from this play session)

The error will clear upon exiting and reloading the game with the one problem if you're getting the issue while already suborbital this could be quite an issue (it was on my original hard mode save!) No aero braking and only speed up until you splat since you're going way too fast for chutes.

Hopefully this issue may be fixed already with your recent github commits but it may be a tricky one to track down since it seems to happen randomly and cannot be repeated even with the same craft. I'd say it may be a memory issue since exit and reload fixes things right up.

Once again, thanks ferram4 and I'll see what I can do to repeat this in an instance without other mods tomorrow if needed. The vessel itself was entirely stock parts besides the Realchitelite modified chute.

[Neuntausend]

@Neuntausend: Logs and reproduction steps. That's not supposed to happen, and I'm really confused as to how you managed to get lift with no drag.

Nevermind, I don't think I can reproduce this now. It happened again this morning, but after I shutdown the computer and rebooted it later, it hasn't happened again. Drag is there now and I just landed the mission I started the evening before. Still was really weird, wish I had recorded that.

[Sterbehilfe]

I've kept working at my goliath. I fixed the situation with not enough thrust by adding a second mainsail, and i achieved this by using a super sized mk2 bicoupler. This monster won't even take off in time without switching on the rockets for a bit.

But it achieves orbit. And if i do it right, it should have enough dV to get to the Mun or Minmus and refuel there. Right now there's an issue with the mainsails, though, they gimbal wrong (i assume because of the dual rump).

[Albman]

For those complaining about loosing yaw authority in high altitude and high mach numbers, I want to share an excerpt from the book: Facing the Heat Barrier: A History of Hypersonics, T. A. Heppenheimer, page 74:

"To steer the aircraft while in flight, the X-15 mounted aerodynamic controls. These retained effectiveness at altitudes well below 100,000 feet (30.48 km). However, they lost effectiveness between 90,000 and 100,000 feet. The X-15 therefore incorporated reaction controls, which were small thrusters fueled with hydrogen peroxide. Nose-mounted units controlled pitch and yaw. Other units, set near the wingtips, gave control of roll"

Also a comment from the pilot during high altitude flight:

"During a flight in September of that year (1956), the test pilot Iven Kincheloe took it (the X-15 aircraft) to 126,200 feet. At that altitude, its aerodynamic controls were useless. Kincheloe flew a ballistic arc, experiencing near-weightlessness for close to a minute. His airplane banked to the left, but he did not try to counter this movement, for he knew that his X-2 could easily go into a deadly tumble"

[Wanderfound]

"To steer the aircraft while in flight, the X-15 mounted aerodynamic controls. These retained effectiveness at altitudes well below 100,000 feet (30.48 km). However, they lost effectiveness between 90,000 and 100,000 feet. The X-15 therefore incorporated reaction controls, which were small thrusters fueled with hydrogen peroxide. Nose-mounted units controlled pitch and yaw. Other units, set near the wingtips, gave control of roll"

Which is a trick that works in KSP, BTW. One Vernor under each wingtip, one either side of the cockpit; covers for a multitude of aerodynamic sins. Handy for spin recovery, too.

[Sterbehilfe]

Which reminds me, my Center of Mass is too far back and the plane likes to tumble ass-first. I should scrap one of my 2 Monoprop tanks and mount the other one in the front for some counter weight.

[Kitspace]

@Kitspace: 1. Simple; build some deflection into the control surface in the editor.

2. Possibly, but at the same time this then raises the question of how to detect that. In the end, this means adding a lot more options to an already bloated tweakables menu, which I really, really, really don't want to do.

Also, simple reason why IAS > TAS: once you get above Mach 0.3, compressibility effects start becoming important. One of those effects is that the stagnation pressure increases faster than what would be expected using the simple "static pressure + dynamic pressure" measurement that a pitot tube uses to measure velocity.

Thank you for your quick response.

Sorry I did not quite get what do you mean. Is it possible to affect the neutral input position of the control and then turn the part back inline using editor tools? In my case the main trick is that the part always wants to stay exactly in the middle of its travel range when neutral.

The code can get the current controls position. Right? Then maybe add some limiting code that would compare the position to the limit the same way it currently is with the separate limits? To the user it could look like just one more slider with a name of total deflection or something that could be tweaked from zero to unlimited same as the current ones work.

Just thoughts though. It would be really nice but the question was only if it is currently possible nothing more.

I have some piloting experience with real life airplanes and a lot of experience with serious flight simulation including professional full flight simulators. So I have an idea of how things work and how instruments and gauges behave in different conditions. I have deep interest in this topic for many years already. I have never seen indicated airspeed being higher than true airspeed.

Also the wikipedia says that stagnation pressure at the pitot does equal the sum of static and dynamic pressures in free flow indeed.

Maybe that is a bug just for me or something but there is no reason for the indicated airspeed to be fifty percent more than the groundspeed even when taxiing on the ground.

That does look very wrong.

[Hodo]

HA! Nice! That got me another 5 m/s at 10km

I think at this point I just need to unlock more parts so I can build more efficient designs.

You could add a structural part in the middle to extend the fuselage of the aircraft which would help with that smoothing. Right now your craft is VERY short in length. I took this old design of mine and brought it back for this version of FAR.

The Akula as I called it, is a Mig-21 knock off and it works surprisingly well even now in NuFAR.

The reason it does well is because it is pretty long, not as long as most of my aircraft but longer than yours is. It is a bit longer now that I have replaced the center inline intake with a precooler.

[Sterbehilfe]

I have a problem with my dual-engine SSTO: When firing my 2 mainsails on suborbital trajectory (after turning off all intakes and jet engines) to get to orbit, sometimes one of the two suddenly loses thrust / throttles down. Subsequently the craft starts spinning. WHY DOES IT LOSE THRUST.

The log doesn't mention anything of interest around that timestamp. I am using TAC fuel balancer and have turned off all FAR FA options.

[LOG 16:03:07.208] Tac.FuelBalanceController[FFFBE1AA][149.50]: Rebuilding resource lists.

[LOG 16:03:07.244] [CHATR] Capsule starts the exchange...

[LOG 16:03:09.113] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:09.984] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:10.856] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:11.929] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:13.129] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:13.781] [Progress Node Reached]: RecordsSpeed

[LOG 16:03:14.202] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:15.533] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:16.576] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:17.758] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:18.810] Updating vessel voxel for GodSSTO2

[LOG 16:03:20.003] Prandlt-Meyer Expansion Curves Initialized

[LOG 16:03:59.738] [Orbit Targeter]: Target is null

[LOG 16:05:05.338] [Progress Node Reached]: RecordsAltitude

[LOG 16:05:32.905] [CHATR] Capsule starts the exchange...

[LOG 16:06:07.995] [Progress Node Reached]: RecordsDistance

[LOG 16:07:31.517] [CHATR] Capsule starts the exchange...

[LOG 16:08:56.914] [Progress Node Complete]: RecordsDistance

[LOG 16:08:58.764] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:09:06.438] [CHATR] Capsule starts the exchange...

[LOG 16:09:43.236] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:10:22.781] RCS lock/unlock

[LOG 16:10:28.735] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:11:03.560] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:11:13.918] [CHATR] Capsule starts the exchange...

[LOG 16:11:38.765] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:12:13.993] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:12:20.994] RCS lock/unlock

[LOG 16:12:22.208] RCS lock/unlock

[LOG 16:12:49.250] Active Vessel is in atmosphere. Cannot save.

[LOG 16:12:53.572] [CHATR] Capsule starts the exchange...

[LOG 16:12:57.679] Game Paused!