Immortality.... The Ultimate Scifi Killer

[Spacescifi]

 

Often scifi is created in part because intelligent minds want to 'see' or 'create' a future they will not be around to see.

Yet if a civilization lived forever with biological immortality, that gives you all the time you need to make any scifi dream one could think up a reality. Given enough time.

For a rather absurd example... if it was your heart's desire to you make a planet that was shaped like a donut, if you worked ASAP with help you might.... (I say this with quite a bit of doubt) manage to do it in a millennium or two.

 

My point is.. with forever ahead one does not need to dream of the future.

In fact... their main concern I suppose would be creating the next big, bountiful future.

 

What do you think?

 

I will be honest.... if I had immortality I would study hard, and make every worthwhile scifi dream I ever wanted happen.

Because if it is not worthwhile it is not worth doing.

It must either be spectacular or incredibly useful. Hopefully both.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Kerbart]

26 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Often scifi is created in part because intelligent minds want to 'see' or 'create' a future they will not be around to see. (...)

But not always. Asimov once wrote that the basis for his stories was in a lot of cases "to change one aspect (physical or technical) from our world and see how that would play out"

The point in most SciFi is not "this is how the future would be like" but rather "what if..." and it's more about the backdrop for an interesting story than anything else. We wouldn't be reading historical novels if that wasn't the case. Good stories can survive the future; there's plenty in my late father's collection where, because a course correction is needed, a crew member shouts out the golden sentence where is my slide ruler. It didn't make the stories less enjoyable.

 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Kerbart said:

But not always. Asimov once wrote that the basis for his stories was in a lot of cases "to change one aspect (physical or technical) from our world and see how that would play out"

The point in most SciFi is not "this is how the future would be like" but rather "what if..." and it's more about the backdrop for an interesting story than anything else. We wouldn't be reading historical novels if that wasn't the case. Good stories can survive the future; there's plenty in my late father's collection where, because a course correction is needed, a crew member shouts out the golden sentence where is my slide ruler. It didn't make the stories less enjoyable.

 

 

What if stories eh?

The road not taken?

May as well be called aliternate history fiction.

Nowadays the term science fiction is so broad that it encompasses fantasy (star wars), horror (some monster films) and etc, not withstanding scifi about scientific speculations.

What if stories do have some interest, but... perhaps in my old age (no I'm not super old) I have begun to want more than simple entertainment.

 

Laughs stay with you, but they lack substance beyond jolity. What endures is a theme.

In other words, my scifi will have a theme, and explore it down to the end fully.

Deep down the rabbit hole to the bottom.

'What if' I will agree is an intriguing question.

The original Skyline movie for me best answered the 'what if scifi alien invaders were real' question since they were far more dangerous and mysterious than the ID4 aliens ever were. Also humans losing with a light at the tunnel was seemingly far more realistic which helped bolster my suspension of disbelief a hundredfold.

Monster flicks are kinda boring, since we all know how that 'what if' question ends. Monster dies or is driven off. Every. Single. Time.

So I guess the real answer to whether or not 'what if' questions are interesting is whether the writer thinks so.

My opinion?

Time travel? Maybe, if done right. Can easily be botched though since reset buttons tend to kill the high stakes.

Alien Invasions: Actually hard to do as they have been overdone so many times. Just what is the theme anyway? That humans can beat incompetent enemies with scifi trope tech?

Alien First Contact: Also done to death. For what it's worth, Tron (the original) did a rather novel take on this, even though there were no 'aliens' (unless you count 'programs'), the world of Tron definitely was alien as can be.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Kerbart]

• What if night didn't exist? How would society react to darkness?
• What if we can predict the future?
• What if corporations can push for profit while sacrificing the lives of millions? Would they do it (this seems relevant these days, somehow)?
• What if we live in a world where land doesn't exist? How would you get metal?
• What if we live in a world where planets don't exist? How would that look like?
• What if everyone becomes super intelligent?

And even when we have an infinite life span, we can still write about things that haven't happened yet, and might not happen anytime soon. Just because something might happen 100,000 years in the future doesn't mean it can't be a good story now.

 

[Spacescifi]

36 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

• What if night didn't exist? How would society react to darkness?
• What if we can predict the future?
• What if corporations can push for profit while sacrificing the lives of millions? Would they do it (this seems relevant these days, somehow)?
• What if we live in a world where land doesn't exist? How would you get metal?
• What if we live in a world where planets don't exist? How would that look like?
• What if everyone becomes super intelligent?

And even when we have an infinite life span, we can still write about things that haven't happened yet, and might not happen anytime soon. Just because something might happen 100,000 years in the future doesn't mean it can't be a good story now.

 

The issue with forever is that ALL those questions can be answered, some of the right now. If not actually done, they can be predicted with ease

So questions in themselves are only intriguing if the answer is not readily available

Examples:

What if night did not exist?

Answer: Life cooks and dies. Unless it's some sort of virtual simulation.

What if we can predict the future?

Answer: Absolute power corrupts OR we have little to zero choice in our fate. Neither sounds very appealing storywise to me, and perhaps that is why some time machine stories end with the machine being destroyed. Since even some authors readily realize this.

What if corporations...

Answer: That's reality, not fiction. You need look no further than pharmaceutical companies and others that rank profit above consumer safety for decades on end until someone blows the whistle. Not interesting for me.

What if we lived with no land?

Answer: This one requires a waterworld setting where there used to be land, somewhat intriguing.... but only somewhat for me.

A world where planets do not exist?

Answer: Fantasy again, unless you dream up beings who can live on stars. Still fantasy.

What if everyone was super intelligent?

Answer: Faster progress. Intelligence does not change attitudes and motivations much, so whether they nuke themselves to oblivion or ruin everything or make a utopia depends less on intellect and more on motives, purpose, unity and or the lack of it.

 

EDIT: Writing a good story is independent of the genre, if one can write well they can make ANYTHING sound intriguing... even if it is'nt.

Advertisers know this.

When you look at your box of food it will probably say something like 'We raise/cultivate with premium quality and use a treasured old recipe yadda yadda yadda.'

In the end none of that matters at all. What matters is whether or not the consumer believes that, or they actually enjoy the product.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Kerbart]

Sounds to me you don't really care about a good story, just the plot.

 

Quote

Examples:

What if night did not exist? Answer: Life cooks and dies. Unless it's some sort of virtual simulation.

What if we can predict the future? Answer: Absolute power corrupts OR we have little to zero choice in our fate. Neither sounds very appealing storywise to me, and perhaps that is why some time machine stories end with the machine being destroyed. Since even some authors readily realize this.

What if corporations... Answer: That's reality, not fiction. You need look no further than pharmaceutical companies and others that rank profit above consumer safety for decades on end until someone blows the whistle. Not interesting for me.

What if we lived with no land? Answer: This one requires a waterworld setting where there used to be land, somewhat intriguing.... but only somewhat for me. So what about the metal? You didn't answer it

A world where planets do not exist? Answer: Fantasy again, unless you dream up beings who can live on stars. Still fantasy.

What if everyone was super intelligent? Answer: Faster progress. Intelligence does not change attitudes and motivations much, so whether they nuke themselves to oblivion or ruin everything or make a utopia depends less on intellect and more on motives, purpose, unity and or the lack of it.

You missed all of them by the way. Each of these are plots in books from well-known SciFi writers. Science Fiction, not fantasy, as you claim for some. Given that you decided to come up with answers that differ wildly, wildly from the books, I take it as point in case that things are not that predictable and that there's plenty of room for good stories.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Kerbart

[Spacescifi]

13 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Sounds to me you don't really care about a good story, just the plot.

 

You missed all of them by the way. Each of these are plots in books from well-known SciFi writers. Science Fiction, not fantasy, as you claim for some. Given that you decided to come up with answers that differ wildly, wildly from the books, I take it as point in case that things are not that predictable and that there's plenty of room for good stories.

 

Scifi means different things to different folks.

I won't debate that.

One calls it one thing while one does not. We all have our likes and dislikes.

I watched the movie Waterworld to answer your question.

Years ago.

They got metal from ships in the ocean.

 

As for my answers, they are based on stuff I have viewed both in scifi movies and real life, which scifi at least tips a hat to, unlike pure fantasy.

I do care about a good story, but I am really careful about the theme.

I don't want to be all over the place so to speak.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Spacescifi

[micha]

23 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

My point is.. with forever ahead one does not need to dream of the future.

In fact... their main concern I suppose would be creating the next big, bountiful future.

 

What do you think?

Of course you have to dream of the future.

If you can't conceive of something which doesn't exist yet, how can you work towards that?

The only difference being that if you live forever[1] there's a good chance you yourself can live to see your dreams fulfilled[2] and don't just have to pass your dreams on to the next generation and hope that they work on the next step to realising them.


[1] Estimates are that even being careful, immortal humans (as in, physiologically not aging or prone to age-related diseases) would at most live to ~6000years before succumbing to accidents or other diseases.

[2] Unless, of course, they are fantasy, such as your donut-shaped planets.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, micha said:

Of course you have to dream of the future.

If you can't conceive of something which doesn't exist yet, how can you work towards that?

The only difference being that if you live forever[1] there's a good chance you yourself can live to see your dreams fulfilled[2] and don't just have to pass your dreams on to the next generation and hope that they work on the next step to realising them.


[1] Estimates are that even being careful, immortal humans (as in, physiologically not aging or prone to age-related diseases) would at most live to ~6000years before succumbing to accidents or other diseases.

[2] Unless, of course, they are fantasy, such as your donut-shaped planets.

Immortality is hopeless fantasy to some mortals, yet no one really wants to die so long all is well. Men have dreamed of it from time immemorial.

It's life's great irony.

If a race was biogically immortal, depending on their resources available, they should have both technology and medicine to treat their diseases better than our reality.

Once more it is in the writer's court.

As for donut planets, fantastic as they are, google has enough info on it that one could show what it would be like to live on one. The one part of ot I will reveal is that our Earth is a safer spot hands down.

 

EDIT: You're right about dreams.

I guess I meant that there is a difference between dreams and concrete plans.

Since with forever ahead of a person, they could plan to make their dreams come true.

I don't know about you, but I would find that more satisfying than merely dreaming and writing about it.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Spacescifi

[KSK]

On 4/20/2020 at 6:18 AM, Spacescifi said:

Alien Invasions: Actually hard to do as they have been overdone so many times. Just what is the theme anyway? That humans can beat incompetent enemies with scifi trope tech?

Hardly.

See, for example, HG Wells' The War of the Worlds, John Christopher's When the Tripods Came (and his Tripods trilogy), Greg Bear's The Forge of God, Arthur C Clarke's Childhoods End, Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life, and Niven & Pournelle's Footfall.

And those are just examples that spring to mind. They're all about alien invasions of one sort or another, from the classic war of conquest to the more insidious (depending on your point of view) cultural assimilation. And, with the possible exception of Footfall, none of them involve humans beating incompetent enemies with sci-fi trope tech. 

Dismissing an entire sub-genre of science fiction with a single, not very accurate, theme seems a bit... short sighted? Overly self-assured?

Further comments in spoilers for folks that haven't read one or more of the above.

 

Spoiler

 

The granddaddy of alien invasion stories, HG Well's The War of the Worlds, has humanity hopelessly outmatched by the invaders, who are eventually defeated by a (to them) unknown cause. Lots of themes to choose from but 'it's the unknown unknowns that will get you' is a fairly enduring one.

There are a number of themes in John Christopher's Tripods novels, although I would argue that the one most relevant to the invasion and its eventual defeat is hubris, first by humanity and then by their conquerors. In any event, bootleg liquor and hot air balloons are hardly sci-fi trope tech. Incidentally,  the way that both of those are deployed - and the reasons for them being deployed - are a lot more interesting than that rather flippant summary

Greg Bear's The Forge of God, has humanity defeated by the ultimate time bomb. They can see it ticking but there's nothing at all they can do about it.

Arthur C. Clark's Childhood's End depicts a benign invasion that nevertheless results in humanity as we know it becoming extinct. Arguably, a similar theme is found in Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life, in which contact with a benign alien species and their language fundamentally alters humanity's way of thinking and powers of thinking.

Even in Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's Footfall, which comes pretty close to that summary of 'humans beating incompetent enemies with scifi trope tech', the 'incompetence' that allows humanity to fight back is well explored and arises from the invader's psychology and how they expect humanity to behave. Which you could dismiss as incompetence if you wish but I would argue its an example of a more interesting theme, that of aliens being unknowable.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by KSK

[YNM]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:31 AM, Spacescifi said:

Yet if a civilization lived forever with biological immortality

So I can still send over a black hole and wipe the entire thing out, right ?

Personally seeing that I'd better still be mortal in some way rather than only being able to be killed in the most awkward or terrible of circumstances (accidents, disasters, combats etc).

Y'know what ? Maybe someone should write something about the reality of biological immortality, and of probabilities.

Edited April 21, 2020 by YNM

[Spacescifi]

3 hours ago, YNM said:

So I can still send over a black hole and wipe the entire thing out, right ?

Personally seeing that I'd better still be mortal in some way rather than only being able to be killed in the most awkward or terrible of circumstances (accidents, disasters, combats etc).

Y'know what ? Maybe someone should write something about the reality of biological immortality, and of probabilities.

 

Well yes... biological immortality does not mean mortality is gone, it's just no longer guaranteed.

As the rest... I am working on it.

In my work there will be both alien biologically immortal races and mortal ones. Plus regular mortal humans, since a normal human point of view is kind of essential when juxtaposed with alien views that are considered either intolerant or downright strange.

What works for aliens won't always eork when done in the same manner by humans.

What aliend fight over humans may find silly, wheras aliens may think the same of us.

Think of the absurdities we could make!

On the one hand aliens may say humans are crazy for fighting wars over land, while humans may say aliens are nuts for fighting in literal wars because their favorite team lost a sports championship, but never over land or resources.

Such an alien culture would essentially put far more precedence on glory and being liked than even humans do.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Spacescifi

[YNM]

10 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

biological immortality does not mean mortality is gone, it's just no longer guaranteed.

You mean a non-zero chance for something to happen, regardless of how slight it is, would never add up to one ?

[Spacescifi]

14 minutes ago, YNM said:

You mean a non-zero chance for something to happen, regardless of how slight it is, would never add up to one ?

 

I mean that they will never degenerate due to old age and die.

Sickness could in theory take them out without a cure, as could injury if it was not properly healed.

Simple.

[Superfluous J]

I once split fiction into 3 categories based on explosions.

1. If something explodes due to lasers, it's Science Fiction.
2. If something explodes due to magic, it's Fantasy.
3. If nothing explodes, then why are we watching this garbage?

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

I mean that they will never degenerate due to old age and die.

Sickness could in theory take them out without a cure, as could injury if it was not properly healed.

Hypothesis: This is already true, we're just not advanced enough to have cures for everything. Or even most things.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Superfluous J

[YNM]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

I mean that they will never degenerate due to old age and die.

Yeah but they'd still be vulnerable to, say, an explosion, or a collision, or being vaporized.

Sure average lifespans would increase greatly, but all obituaries would be "killed in an explosion", "killed in a crash", "killed by vaporization".

Honestly ? I'd rather have shorter lifespans as long as my death won't be in a sorry state.

[Spacescifi]

5 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

 

Hypothesis: This is already true, we're just not advanced enough to have cures for everything. Or even most things.

 

If only it were that simple.... but I also think it's good it is"nt.

At least for right now. Until mankind 'grows up'.

Life is more than a gift. It is a responsibility.  

5 hours ago, YNM said:

Yeah but they'd still be vulnerable to, say, an explosion, or a collision, or being vaporized.

Sure average lifespans would increase greatly, but all obituaries would be "killed in an explosion", "killed in a crash", "killed by vaporization".

Honestly ? I'd rather have shorter lifespans as long as my death won't be in a sorry state.

Well for what it's worth they are humanoid aliens.

Which means in my story your overalll attitude would be different.

Death does not bother them in the same way it does humans.

To die with honor and glory? That's totally fine.

To not? Worse than death. Of course, by the time of death most should have achieved honor and glory, as to them it matters like.... it's EVERYTHING to them.

These are the same people that have a custom among each other to always offer a rematch in any competition to the defeated until they either win or give up. Even dwindling the winning players so there is less and less while the losing team retains numbers.

To not offer a rematch? That's the kind of thing that starts fights and wars.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

they will never degenerate due to old age

That's really great!
They will keep all teeth rather than loose them on age.

Spoiler

(Warning, maybe a shocking content)

Spoiler

A typical baby skull with typical ~60 teeth)

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

3 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Death does not bother them in the same way it does humans.

To die with honor and glory? That's totally fine.

To not? Worse than death. Of course, by the time of death most should have achieved honor and glory, as to them it matters like.... it's EVERYTHING to them.

But you said the humans are also immortal ?

Also, if they understand "honor and glory", doesn't that make them competitive, and practically the same as humans ?

Though, even if it wasn't, I'd honestly like to know what kind of alien psyche you could turn up. IMO most depictions of aliens right now are far too simplistic - which kinda works insofar as to make them "alien" - but it does make you wonder if they really never learned anything in their course of civilization.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, YNM said:

But you said the humans are also immortal ?

Also, if they understand "honor and glory", doesn't that make them competitive, and practically the same as humans ?

Though, even if it wasn't, I'd honestly like to know what kind of alien psyche you could turn up. IMO most depictions of aliens right now are far too simplistic - which kinda works insofar as to make them "alien" - but it does make you wonder if they really never learned anything in their course of civilization.

 

Did I? I don't recall it.

Humans in my work are like you and me. Mortal and headed to inevitable nonexistence.

All scifi aliens are variants of humanity, because variants of animals just won't have the same sophistication.

 

The difference with my aliens as described vs humans is unlike Klingons who care mostly about winning and glory only while giving lip service to honor ( with rare exceptions), these guys and gals care about honor for each other.

To not do so is considered the worst insult. One that must be taken back.... or else.

Knowing this, you can expect their culture to be polite and mannerly with each other as well as other aliens, yet when they do get into fights and war, they are ruthless... especially if it involves the lack of honor shown. 

Paradoxically, the moment the enemy does show honor, they will call off the assault and both sides will carry on like nothing ever happened.

Humans don't do that. Humans tend not to forget and hold grudges. These aliens won't... so long honor is shown to the degree they require.

Creating multiple alien psyches I can do. Just takes time.

Some come out more unique while other are more generic. Either way they are going in the story.

Gotta populate the alien side of things!

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Spacescifi]

4 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

That's really great!
They will keep all teeth rather than loose them on age.

  Hide contents

(Warning, maybe a shocking content)

  Hide contents

A typical baby skull with typical ~60 teeth)

 

 

 

That has nothing whatsoever to do with degeneration due to aging and everything to do with new teeth growing beneath to replace the baby teeth.

You know this.

As an old man, he whayever he loses is not due to getting replacement growing parts. He just loses it.

[kerbiloid]

What is degeneration in terms of the body? What's the reference point? If a human has an anatomic defect, is it his normal restore point?

[Spacescifi]

46 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

What is degeneration in terms of the body? What's the reference point? If a human has an anatomic defect, is it his normal restore point?

 

I should expect that because they look humanoid you also expect to have many other human traits... deformities included.

Well they don't have deformities. They come out right inevitably unless the mother eats toxins or has injuries.

Neither of which happen normally in their society.

Their society is run unlike our own, given their behavior, so do not expect the same problems or even the same solutions humans would use IRL.

They are called aliens for a reason.

 

The above is a semi-close approximation of how they look.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

29 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Well they don't have deformities.

The deformities are inevitable satellites of evolution. They are mutations being debugged.

The rudimentary horns are an obvious proof that their evolution is far from the final.

[Spacescifi]

55 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

The deformities are inevitable satellites of evolution. They are mutations being debugged.

The rudimentary horns are an obvious proof that their evolution is far from the final.

 

I said it was a semi-close approximation of how they look.

They don't have horns but the gray is correct.

Horns as seen in the pic serve no  useful purpose other than decoration and are useful for headbutting. That's about it. Humanoid activity goes far beyond that kind if thing. So it is hardly a useful feature for a humanoid IMO. On the other hand, their hands and feet are definitely different than us.

Also they were created, so random mutations do not exist.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spacescifi