Progression mode and science

[TLTay]

With multiple planets and star systems, I wonder how the team is going to keep the challenge level up and keep people from losing interest after they've unlocked the tech tree? Will they reduce the pace of tech tree progression?

I was thinking maybe with the addition of space and surface colonies and construction, some changes might be necessary to maintain fun (while boosting realism). My thinking would be (in addition to unique planets and systems with unique challenges), they could implement a modified system:

Tech Tree: A civilization-wide level of technological attainment. This is fought for and won at great cost in time, treasure, and lives. This is the university and institutional knowledge of Kerbalkind. With the correct industry and facilities, Kerbals can produce technology up to their highest level. You can produce to this level on Kerbin, and with the right infrastructure: in Kerbin orbit.

Local ability: Kerbals cannot land on a distant pebble with a bare-bones basic ship and produce an interstellar colony ship. Setting up the ability to create even basic rockets on a distant planet should be a challenge in itself, and a fun new part of gameplay (especially multiplayer). People spend hundreds of hours in a game with block graphics building factories, why not in KSP? I understand that the core competency of KSP is building ships, I get that. But KSP2 can be more without ruining the core Kerbal experience (especially since the core experience has been core for about a decade).This means making things a bit more involved. No more magic ISRU the size of a van to produce unlimited fuel for operations.   Once a colony with appropriate construction facilities reaches a certain point, it can build craft to a much lower tech level (maybe unique designs optimized for construction in spartan locations) than would be capable on Kerbin. This will keep the level of challenge and interest up as Kerbals expand through the star systems. Exploring new planets with a ufo-grade supership isn't challenging and cheapens the experience. More realism might be beneficial here, as long as it isn't overboard.

Science: Experiments and research take time to achieve. Sometimes they are a dead-end, sometimes breakthroughs are had. Experiments that don't have an external antenna/appendage can be mounted internally to certain parts, adding weight and taking science payload space. No more need for 25 physics-inducing baubles clinging to the outside of my beautiful creation!  Knowledge of planets must be earned. The planetarium/tracking center does not provide full and accurate data about celestial bodies until that data is earned by sending probes to map/explore the planet (like scan-sat, but for everything). KSP has always been lacking in things to do and see when you've arrived at your destination. KSP2 can (and should, for a full price game released in 202X) fill out what was missing in the original.

I'm sure the team has some great ideas on all of this, but with so little info being released, it's starting to make me worried. I have high hopes for this game to launch another decade of greatness. Anyone have any ideas on how they can make the late-stage portion of the game more fun?

[The Aziz]

Solution: no such thing as "maxing out the tech tree" or even more ridiculous "maxing out the tech tree without even leaving Kerbin". Let your science (knowledge? technology?) improve as you progress, not faster. No unlocks, more research by testing and proving. No, you can't fly to Duna on a rocket built in 10 minutes after driving around the KSC, collecting a temperature report every 100 meters and nothing else. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by The Aziz

[KerikBalm]

I'd say no to maxin the tech tree from just the kerbal system... the tech tree must be huge.

You could basically recapitualte KSP 1 with the KSP1 tech level, Kerbin surface and orbit gives you appropriate tech to go to Mun and Minmus 

and you go to Duna, Eve, etc to get some better engines (LV-Ns, *ughhh* metallic hexdrogen, preferably liquid core and pebble bed NTRs in their place) and go to Jool+its moons+Moho+Eeloo.

Then after getting science from most bodies in the Kerbin system, and establishing an offworld colony, you get an Orion drive to go interstellar to Proxima/Alpha Kerbtauri (a star system much closer than others), and going there can get you the next level of interstellar engine.

We already know of Orion drives, ICF drives, and some torchship drive (probably antimatter). 

I would hope that you have to go interstellar once before unlocking the next interstellar drive, otherwise you just end up leaving the kerbin system with the best interstellar drive possible, and the intermediate ones are a bit useless (maybe just used for quickly zipping around other systems until your colonies can fuel a torchship7antimatter drive(

[mcwaffles2003]

My thoughts on the topic so far

High emphasis on the in game database development via science. Really think a feature like this would keep science relevant through to the endgame regardless of TT completion. It would be useful in navigating new planets. It would set up an intelligent, realistic, and fun approach to discovering new bodies. Finally, it would feel like actual science as opposed to just feeling like a quest line for getting new parts.

Obviously there should also be a reworking in science point rewards in regard to how far out one has gone from their home system. Perhaps a per planet/celestial body exponential decay in science points received. Make it so in general experiments yield less science and for instance, lets say there are 1000 total science points to be rewarded from Kerbin if every experiment is completed. How about after 40% or so completion the player ends up having 80% or so of all the science points and the next lie 30% or something gets you another 10% of the total available points etc...

This would make it so grinding out all the science experiments on a body doesn't yield a player a ridiculously teched out civ but most of the points are accumulated quickly and the player is incentivized to expand further for more science. This is a very rough idea but I think I've said enough on it for people to get the jist of what I'm saying. Science for fun would still be incentivised via wanting to fill out the in game database for those who enjoy a rewarding full completion.

15 hours ago, TLTay said:

Tech Tree: A civilization-wide level of technological attainment. This is fought for and won at great cost in time, treasure, and lives. This is the university and institutional knowledge of Kerbalkind. With the correct industry and facilities, Kerbals can produce technology up to their highest level. You can produce to this level on Kerbin, and with the right infrastructure: in Kerbin orbit.

Could you expand on this? I don't think I understand what you're getting at

15 hours ago, TLTay said:

Science: Experiments and research take time to achieve. Sometimes they are a dead-end, sometimes breakthroughs are had. Experiments that don't have an external antenna/appendage can be mounted internally to certain parts, adding weight and taking science payload space. No more need for 25 physics-inducing baubles clinging to the outside of my beautiful creation! 

I feel like including RNG into science experiments could leave players frustrated, especially if they've worked real hard to get a mission to work and in the end RNG makes an experiment fail. That or this would probably just lead to players save scumming experiment results. Also removing the weight/bulk of experiments would then undercut the difficulty of the missions themselves. After the initial learning curve of learning basic rocket science/orbital mechanics the object is to create better rocket. Mid-late game the learning curve is about getting the same payload further or a larger payload the same distance. So removing the payload aspect kind of kills that dynamic and I cant see people being happy with the idea of weightless perfectly convenient (as if non-existent) experiments.

15 hours ago, TLTay said:

Knowledge of planets must be earned. The planetarium/tracking center does not provide full and accurate data about celestial bodies until that data is earned by sending probes to map/explore the planet (like scan-sat, but for everything). KSP has always been lacking in things to do and see when you've arrived at your destination. KSP2 can (and should, for a full price game released in 202X) fill out what was missing in the original.

 

I like this idea, sounds similar to the database idea I've spoken about earl;ier and feel something like this would be very enriching to the kerbal experience.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[mattinoz]

I’ve personally never considered maxing the tech tree to be the aim of the game even in career mode. It more just a way of slowly introducing parts and making you explore there usefulness.