Anti Satellite weapons

[K^2]

1 hour ago, DDE said:

We did, dozens of them - all the way back in the 1970s, before Andropov's unilateral moratorium.

I actually had no idea there were successful tests all the way back then. Good to know.

[DDE]

1 hour ago, K^2 said:

I actually had no idea there were successful tests all the way back then. Good to know.

It simply IS )

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/is.html

[Apurva Kawthalkar]

On 8/11/2020 at 11:28 AM, DDE said:

"New". This is the second 14F150 Nivelir, and there wasn't anywhere near as much ruckus about the first one two years ago despite it carrying out the same exact activities.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43064.0

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=49501.0

Just watch every step of Bart Hendrickx, he knows far more than the Russophile blobtits at Southfront )

Ultimately I concur with USSF's assessment that the sub-sub-satellite is a weapon. The only other option is a Legato/Strazh ejectable flight data recorder - and those Soviet projects only worked with hull-mounted or tethered packages anyway. However, the US has given many good reasons fir Russia to develop such a system, from the undying spectre of SDI to the very real effort to implement space-based guidance for "left-of-launch" missile defence (which in plain terms is preemptive attack), a concept typically illustrated with images with very familiar hardware:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Thanks for the info man, I have a lot to learn about Russian ASAT tech, I am aware of Bert Handrickx and see his work. If you any good forum for this sort of stuff, do share it with me 

[Arugela]

Can't you just put a rock in space to accomplish this? Literally you could use sticks and stones and send us back to the stone age.

[DDE]

20 minutes ago, Arugela said:

Can't you just put a rock in space to accomplish this? Literally you could use sticks and stones and send us back to the stone age.

A rock doesn't have terminal guidance.

[Arugela]

1 hour ago, DDE said:

A rock doesn't have terminal guidance.

It does with a tiny ion rocket on it's butt. Or if released knowing where it had to go from a base satellite.

A tiny satelite with rocks from your driveway could reduce the world to nothing in a single trip.

I doubt the russians are being that clever though.

If it happens we'll just have to build better satellites with the inherent ability to dodge.(or more so.)

Edited August 14, 2020 by Arugela

[DDE]

40 minutes ago, Arugela said:

It does with a tiny ion rocket on it's butt.

So it's not a rock anymore. How is that different from a (pathetically slow) ASAT system of the usual kind?

[K^2]

41 minutes ago, Arugela said:

It does with a tiny ion rocket on it's butt.

You severely underestimate the amount of correction you typically need. Even if you had exact orbital elements to start with, you're not going to hit a sat dead on. ICBMs can't hit with that precision without terminal correction, and their targets are stationary. Because of that, you don't know by how much you're missing until you're close enough to sight your target visually or with radar. Lets say you were 100km away when you were able to get a clean enough sighting/lock to determine that you're 50m off target. Very generous parameters. If you're going head-on in LEO, you have a 15km/s closing rate. So you need to move laterally 50m in 6.7s. That requires acceleration of 2.25m/s². Not a lot for a rocket, but you're not pulling that kind of acceleration with an ion drive. And chemical thrusters have a huge problems with precision. You're not going to dial in thrust precisely in that time. So instead, you want to fire multiple brief puffs, taking measurements and making corrections after each one. With modern manufacturing methods and the amount of computer power you can put on a rice grain, it's not exactly earth-shattering, but you're building something far more complex and expensive than a rock.

Still, in today's world, putting the kill vehicle on the near-pass trajectory is probably the harder part of the problem. Terminal maneuvering can be solved for spherical horse in vacuum. Ascent to target trajectory requires corrections for atmosphere, gravitational anomalies, and tidal forces just to get you close enough to have a chance of intercept. Way more things that can go wrong for you, making it a very hard problem.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, DDE said:

1 hour ago, Arugela said:

It does with a tiny ion rocket on it's butt.

So it's not a rock anymore.

It's a rock'n'rocket.

***

IS doesb't just rock, it has explosive charges, so doesn't need a direct kinetic hit.

Spoiler

 

[Arugela]

You could span them out like a shotgun and hope. If you put it in the path of enough other things it may hit something eventually. If you really want to be mean.

Certain trajectories and the pattern of release of the rocks could increase the odds greatly. And you save on materials!

Reusable or reloadable would make it even funnier.

And like you said several shots could be made with bypass's.

I assumed you just get the satellite into the path of the other satellite and then decrease relative velocity and release the rocks in the path with enough velocity to hit and destroy or to make it impossible for it to dodge the incoming stuff. The rest is just placing the rocks in the correct place and the getting out of the way or reacceleration. If it's hard to detect rocks you might get several releases. Not sure how much a rock can take before breaking apart though and not working. If not maybe it could disable weaker parts of a satellite. Assuming it can't just go through.

You could even release those old rockman toys as a joke.

You could try to give him robotics! 8d His rock form would put all thrusters in the same directions and he could adjust to adjust thrust. Just need some added control parts.

Or vintage muscle man figurines!!! 8D

The advantage of muscle man toys is that they are probably easy to remold.

https://www.google.com/search?q=he+man+vehicles&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiSwquAoZrrAhUNb60KHfjeDxMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=he+man+vehicles&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADIECAAQHjIGCAAQCBAeMgQIABAYOgYIABAFEB5QvB1YryNgmiloAHAAeACAAbcCiAGADJIBBzMuMS4yLjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=x0g2X9LCMY3etQX4vb-YAQ&bih=648&biw=1376&client=firefox-b-1-d

The greatest military technology of them all. HE MAN!!!

The Russians would die of laughter as their entire satellite fleet died from crappy 80's and 90's toy lines!

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Arugela

[kerbiloid]

The Soviet metallic ones are better. Denser, stronger, sharper.

Spoiler

 

[K^2]

12 minutes ago, Arugela said:

You could span them out like a shotgun and hope.

Sand-like particle impact satellites pretty regularly. To do some damage, you need a ball bearing roughly a mm in diameter. You also want to hit something vital with good odds, and tidal forces will distort the grid, so lets say 100m radius at about 5cm apart? That's 400/m² * 31,415m² = 12.5M bearings, which is a little less than 100kg. Again, that's bear minimum, assuming you have good aim and can spread the bearings very uniformly. If you have a tech for all of that, you can probably build a kill vehicle with maneuvering engines that's going to be cheaper to throw at sats. If you don't, the amount of garbage you need to throw into orbit to hit something quickly increases.

I think you're still better off with an active kill vehicle, regardless. Also, way less debris.

[Arugela]

Convert this into a primitive gyroscopic attack vehicle:

Part of the logic is to be so stupid the enemy is in shock or laughing and doesn't have the ability or as fast of a reaction in response. Or any AI is so confused by the unidentified object it can't figure out a correct response. Although it may not have to identify it. Unless the odd movement messes up it's calculations. Or tie up it's systems trying to calculate the correct response.

IE, it's so stupid it might work.

You could also fill it with ball bearings and have it break on impact or something. (or release them up close.)

Edited August 14, 2020 by Arugela

[Apurva Kawthalkar]

On 8/14/2020 at 1:32 PM, Arugela said:

You could span them out like a shotgun and hope. If you put it in the path of enough other things it may hit something eventually. If you really want to be mean.

Certain trajectories and the pattern of release of the rocks could increase the odds greatly. And you save on materials!

Reusable or reloadable would make it even funnier.

And like you said several shots could be made with bypass's.

I assumed you just get the satellite into the path of the other satellite and then decrease relative velocity and release the rocks in the path with enough velocity to hit and destroy or to make it impossible for it to dodge the incoming stuff. The rest is just placing the rocks in the correct place and the getting out of the way or reacceleration. If it's hard to detect rocks you might get several releases. Not sure how much a rock can take before breaking apart though and not working. If not maybe it could disable weaker parts of a satellite. Assuming it can't just go through.

You could even release those old rockman toys as a joke.

You could try to give him robotics! 8d His rock form would put all thrusters in the same directions and he could adjust to adjust thrust. Just need some added control parts.

Or vintage muscle man figurines!!! 8D

The advantage of muscle man toys is that they are probably easy to remold.

https://www.google.com/search?q=he+man+vehicles&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiSwquAoZrrAhUNb60KHfjeDxMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=he+man+vehicles&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADIECAAQHjIGCAAQCBAeMgQIABAYOgYIABAFEB5QvB1YryNgmiloAHAAeACAAbcCiAGADJIBBzMuMS4yLjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=x0g2X9LCMY3etQX4vb-YAQ&bih=648&biw=1376&client=firefox-b-1-d

The greatest military technology of them all. HE MAN!!!

The Russians would die of laughter as their entire satellite fleet died from crappy 80's and 90's toy lines!

 

Nice action figures, I think I will change the topic name to ' antique soviet space toys', speaking of which are there any modelling kits that have soviet military hardware like missiles, ICBMs etc?

[Arugela]

20 minutes ago, Apurva Kawthalkar said:

Nice action figures, I think I will change the topic name to ' antique soviet space toys', speaking of which are there any modelling kits that have soviet military hardware like missiles, ICBMs etc?

If those are realistic enough those could mess up software potentially. If it can be made to think it's farther away and has more time to react it might make them respond later getting in hits. Assuming that is relevant to the software.

I'm assuming there are lots of model kits that have those.

https://www.google.com/search?q=soviet+model+kits+missile&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjQqq_dib3rAhXGf6wKHb02DrUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=soviet+model+kits+missile&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CtvAZYgMMGYOXDBmgAcAB4AIABZ4gBjAaSAQM2LjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=_4lIX5CvEsb_sQW97bioCw&bih=648&biw=1376&client=firefox-b-1-d

 

 

I don't know if this was real. But I think I made one of these in ksp before! ><

Edited August 28, 2020 by Arugela

[DDE]

3 hours ago, Apurva Kawthalkar said:

speaking of which are there any modelling kits that have soviet military hardware like missiles, ICBMs etc?

Zvezvda is the go-to Russian manufacturer for this sort of stuff. This even go for exotics like the Comanche  Don't even know of another Russian model kit company, frankly. I know that the military contracts custom models out to private companies, such as this model of what's likely the future S-500, specifically the anti-missile/anti-space component (See, this isn't off-topic for this thread!):

Spoiler

Here's its close relative unveiled last week:

Looks like it's inherited the radar from an S-300V in addition to the missiles.

Western manufacturers seem to have a much less comprehensive line-up.

I'm sure there are greater enthusiasts over in the Lounge sub-forum.

Edited August 28, 2020 by DDE

[Apurva Kawthalkar]

On 8/28/2020 at 1:06 PM, DDE said:

Zvezvda is the go-to Russian manufacturer for this sort of stuff. This even go for exotics like the Comanche  Don't even know of another Russian model kit company, frankly. I know that the military contracts custom models out to private companies, such as this model of what's likely the future S-500, specifically the anti-missile/anti-space component (See, this isn't off-topic for this thread!):

  Hide contents

Here's its close relative unveiled last week:

Looks like it's inherited the radar from an S-300V in addition to the missiles.

Western manufacturers seem to have a much less comprehensive line-up.

I'm sure there are greater enthusiasts over in the Lounge sub-forum.

Nice, especially the SS-25 Topol,/Sickle look pretty good, 

So after you send those link pages, I looked into Bert Hendreixx (probably butchered the name) and came across his paper on "Naryad-V and soviet anti-satellite weapon" .

It was great, comprehensive and very well researched, if you have any thing more of that sort please dm me the links.  

[kerbiloid]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleground_(short_story)

Quote

other contents of the footlocker are revealed, including one made-to-scale thermonuclear weapon.

 

[magnemoe]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:36 AM, DDE said:

Zvezvda is the go-to Russian manufacturer for this sort of stuff. This even go for exotics like the Comanche  Don't even know of another Russian model kit company, frankly. I know that the military contracts custom models out to private companies, such as this model of what's likely the future S-500, specifically the anti-missile/anti-space component (See, this isn't off-topic for this thread!):

  Reveal hidden contents

Here's its close relative unveiled last week:

Looks like it's inherited the radar from an S-300V in addition to the missiles.

Western manufacturers seem to have a much less comprehensive line-up.

I'm sure there are greater enthusiasts over in the Lounge sub-forum.

After Chernobyl, they wanted an sort of drone to go down into the subbasement look around, stuff like the elephant foot. 
Well they used an off the shelf remote controlled tank and jury rigged an camera to replace the gun. 
Smaller and more agile than some sort of bomb disposal robot, also far cheaper, it was not like they would reuse it. 

[kerbiloid]

Still lurking there, seeks for exit.

[DDE]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Well they used an off the shelf remote controlled tank and jury rigged an camera to replace the gun. 

IIRC with the Elephant Foot they started with a child stroller and a very long stick to push it.