How to orientate RCS in orbit?

[Serenity]

Hello, i was wondering how can you tell the rotation of the current control point,

especially for when you want to use RCS to maneuver/dock.

I tried to understand Navball but i can never tell if my vessel is the ''normal way'' so when i RCS up it will go up etc.

I used the mod Navhud that has an onscreen indicator but i really want to learn how to use Navball to tell.

Maybe i am missing something but for now i cant figure it out and i just rotate and do RCS bursts until they point the ''right way''(Right way meaning corresponds with the controls).

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[VoidSquid]

Let the camera face the crew hatch / labeling at the probe core, then you have a match between what you see and the RCS directions.Or use the camera "locked" mode. Or, if you specifically interested in docking, use the Docking Port Alignment Indicator mode.

[Serenity]

Thanks for the info but neither of these help a lot in what i am after.

What if the vessel is complicated or it has no tell of which rotation corresponds with controls?

There must be a way to tell...how does Navhud do it?

I am gonna look into Docking port alignment a bit more but i dont think its what i am after.

Honestly i just want to figure out how Navhud translates Navball into that on screen indicator, i feel i am missing something obvious.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[VoidSquid]

In low orbit (e.g. if I'm about to land), I'm using the free camera and roll (retrograde) my craft that the brown part of the navball is on top, the blue part points to the surface.

If you do remember the vessel's view in the VAB, the south-pointing part is the reference part I've talking about.

I don't use Navhud mod myself, but I can highly recommend the DPAI mod, makes docking a child's play.

[Serenity]

Not talking about to land, for example i am in Orbit around Minmus and my vessel is bassically a fuel tank with rcs around it, how can i tell when i press W or S(In docking mode)

the controls will correspond with RCS, sry, i know you are trying to help but i am looking for a different kind of info...Navhud has an onscreen indicator telling you how your vessel is orientated no matter in what orbit you are, i am hoping thats something i can see from our stock navball and i am missing how.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[Streetwind]

In such a case, I like to press V repeatedly until the camera is in "locked" mode. You can then orient your view as you like it, and the camera will keep it fixed for you, so your orientation never changes. Perfect for translation maneuvers with RCS.

I believe that, when you use docking mode, W/S is forward/backward, A/D is left/right, and Shift/Ctrl is up/down. Same controls as for Kerbals on EVA, basically. With the locked camera mode, you'll always know which way is up, so you always know which key you must press to go where you want.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Streetwind

[Serenity]

I am looking to find out how Navhud manages to indicate your orientation through the navball, i am sorry but your answers its not what i am looking for.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[VoidSquid]

1 hour ago, Boyster said:

how can i tell when i press W or S(In docking mode)

Try the "locked" camera mode, see what happens if you press WSADQE / HNIKJL  

And yes, did have this issue too myself, took me quite a long time (2 years, actually) to be mostly able to steer the craft as intended, I totally understand you here.

It IS difficult to wrap your mind about this, I think. I still suggest you try out the DPAI mode, from crosschecking camera and how your orientation is displayed by DPAI, I got my first basic understanding of this topic.

Edited August 11, 2020 by VoidSquid

[Serenity]

Hmm ok i see, locked camera its a good way to figure out and orient yourself....i selected both of yours as best answers and thanks for the help.

Although i still wonder if there is a way to tell from navball but that will do i guess.

How these mods display the orientation?

Do they check camera? Do they check a different thing, i guess we might never know.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[Okhin]

You can probably use navball artificial horizon for that. I/K is up/down and J/L is left right. So if you're having an horizontal artificial horizon, then I is going toward the blue part of the navball and K is the brown part. That is why I usually rotate my craft to have an horizontal horizon, it makes moving with RCS easier.

That or lock view. Which exists for this reason.

[VoidSquid]

8 minutes ago, Boyster said:

if there is a way to tell from navball but that will do i guess.

Afaik not, at least I haven't figured out until now.

9 minutes ago, Boyster said:

How these mods display the orientation?

Best to see with your own two eyes instead of long text:

And I could also show you via Twitch, let me know if you're interested via PM, ok?

[Serenity]

9 minutes ago, VoidSquid said:

Afaik not, at least I haven't figured out until now.

Best to see with your own two eyes instead of long text:

And I could also show you via Twitch, let me know if you're interested via PM, ok?

Not talking about docking ports/docking,

check this Yellow indicator in this video

https://youtu.be/4Nl84I-z1OI?t=91

How does it know how the control point is orientated?

Ohhhh man, i think i get it now, every control part must have an orientation indication and it just sees that? Damn i hope its not that simple  .

I still wish there was a way you could tell from the navball but i am guessing its not so easy when you are in different orbits/inclinations etc, no idea.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[VoidSquid]

4 minutes ago, Boyster said:

every control part must have an orientation indication and it just sees that?

Yes, usually hatch for pods, labeling/writing for cores, that's the reference.

I hope this helps?

Edited August 11, 2020 by VoidSquid

[Serenity]

7 minutes ago, VoidSquid said:

Yes, usually hatch for pods, labeling/writing for cores, that's the reference.

I hope this helps?

Ummm i guess, not really, because you might be doing something complicated, and the vessel has hidden inside payloads cores or the docking port is like infront, i mean,

to be honest the most effective way i have to admit is the locked camera mode, its not really what i would want to use, but its really easy to orient yourself.

I am kinda confused, why we cant tell this whole thing somehow from navball, it feels like i am just missing how, i am surprised its not doable.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[VoidSquid]

11 minutes ago, Boyster said:

check this Yellow indicatator in this video

That's just where your nose is pointing, has nothing to with rotational orentation

3 minutes ago, Boyster said:

it feels like i am just missing how

As I said, I have the same issue, happy if someone can point out howto with the navball. My "workarounds" I already mentioned, workarounds, not true solutions.

Edited August 11, 2020 by VoidSquid

[Serenity]

4 minutes ago, VoidSquid said:

That's just where your nose is pointing, has nothing to with rotational orentation

It has everything with rotational orentation, that yellow indicator, the RCS controls will correlate with the directions.

I mean you know which way is up and which way is down from that yellow indicator.

Do you mean something else?

The direction above the inverted small arrow is up, then right left down.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[VoidSquid]

Don't know if we are talking about the same indicator then? The artificial horizon, the "V" with the dot, that's what I understood. Corresponding to the "heading" reading in the navball. And rolling doesn't change it, does it?

Edited August 11, 2020 by VoidSquid

[Okhin]

You can tell the whole thing from navball. You have vertical and horizontal alignment indicators (related to the ecliptic if I'm right) on it, which gives you your control vector related to the ecliptic plane. Your ship is in the center of the navball. If you want to move your ship easily using RCS, then you should align your ship first, to have at least up/down sorted. Which can be done by having the meridians verticals, and the blue part toward the top.

[VoidSquid]

1 minute ago, Okhin said:

You have vertical and horizontal alignment indicators

Mind to elaborate? A screenshot maybe?

[HvP]

@Boyster

Every control point in the game is programmed with a "forward" and "backward" direction, along with an "up" direction. This is all the game needs to be able to determine the orientation of your ship.

You can test this by experimenting with test craft on the ground at the KSC. Make a rover with several control points attached in different orientations. Maybe it has a probe core facing forward and a docking port facing upwards and another one facing backwards, etc. Now right click on those control points and chose "Control From Here" in the right-click menu, and see how that changes your navball. You also have the option to change the internally programmed orientation of command pods and probe cores by switching their forward/reversed control in the right-click menu.

Edited August 11, 2020 by HvP

[Serenity]

20 minutes ago, Okhin said:

You can tell the whole thing from navball. You have vertical and horizontal alignment indicators (related to the ecliptic if I'm right) on it, which gives you your control vector related to the ecliptic plane. Your ship is in the center of the navball. If you want to move your ship easily using RCS, then you should align your ship first, to have at least up/down sorted. Which can be done by having the meridians verticals, and the blue part toward the top.

https://imgur.com/6SGbBWA

Please help me understand, how can i keep my vessel pointing that way and find out how can i know the rotation, when i press left(A) the top RCS will burst left.

I am trying so hard to figure it out, on the ground its easy but when in orbit, facing weird ways and etc my mind breaks.

Without visual indication on the craft which is the correct rotation, how can i find that out from the navball???

The correct rotation being the RCS thruster thats alligned with the control point ofcourse.

I updated the screenshot to a more clear situation

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster

[HvP]

38 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Without visual indication on the craft which is the correct rotation, how can i find that out from the navball???

The navball is ALWAYS aligned with your ship's control point. It is the control point that defines what you see on the navball. Changing the control point changes the navball.

 This symbol in the middle of your navball is the level-flight-indicator. That shows you where the control point of your ship is facing. The dot in the middle is always forward. The left arm is always left, the right arm is always right, and the "V" in the middle always points to the ventral (or underside) of your vessel's control point. Usually, your control point is a command pod, probe core, or docking port near the nose or aligned with the nose of your ship. But it doesn't have to be. If you choose a control point that is a rover stored horizontally, or a docking port facing sideways, then this indicator will change to orientate itself with THAT point of control.

The "Locked" camera is the ONLY camera that aligns itself with your control point. After you switch to the locked camera and drag your view so that you are looking straight towards the control point of your craft then left/right/up/down on the screen will correspond to those same directions on your navball's level-flight-indicator.

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Navball

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by HvP

[Okhin]

33 minutes ago, VoidSquid said:

Mind to elaborate? A screenshot maybe?

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/File:Navball.png

The meridian lines are the vertical indication, relative to the ecliptic plane (and your control point). They're the one that gather at the top and the bottom of the sphere. If they're vertical, than your in a plane that's normal to your orbital plane.

The graduation on those lines are, in fact, parallel circles. If they're horizontal then you're on a parallel plan to your orbital plane. The only one you can get horizontal is, in fact, the horizon one. The one which separates between brown (under the orbital plane, aka bottom") and blue (over the orbital plane aka "top").

With both of those you can now when you're horizontal and vertical related to your orbital plane.

So, align horizontal or vertical (both will be at the same time since they're normal to each other), and then ikjl is up/down/left/right.

40 minutes ago, Boyster said:

https://imgur.com/6SGbBWA

Please help me understand, how can i keep my vessel pointing that way and find out how can i know the rotation, when i press left(A) the top RCS will burst left.

I am trying so hard to figure it out, on the ground its easy but when in orbit, facing weird ways and etc my mind breaks.

Without visual indication on the craft which is the correct rotation, how can i find that out from the navball???

The correct rotation being the RCS thruster thats alligned with the control point ofcourse.

I updated the screenshot to a more clear situation

Ok, with your screenshot (and the rperequisite that you do not want to change the orientation of the craft), then I'll refer to what @HvP.

[VoidSquid]

Here we go again:

13 minutes ago, HvP said:

The "Locked" camera is the ONLY camera that aligns itself with your control point

Question is, save for my workarounds or this (locked camera, camera facing hatch/labeling), how to know your camera is oriented in a way that RCS left is left, pitch is pitching forward, etc.

[Serenity]

Ok, i will try to make my question simple.

How do i align my WASD controls of RCS with the level flight indicator.

NAVhud mod does that, and i cannot figure out from any of the info here how can i do it with the navball.

I honestly...i am trying so hard to explain my question but i am not asking what is a level flight indicator or where my ship is pointing or how control points work.

I want to know the rotation that is needed to bring my WASD controls to correlate with the level flight indicator, so when i push for example A, the top RCS thruster will burst on the lelt direction.

So the two RCS thrusters here on the top will burst left when i press A.

https://imgur.com/6SGbBWA

Edited August 11, 2020 by Boyster